Everyone has an opinion, few have insightful opinions.
After reading Caterina's last post, do you feel that she's more qualified to comment on the situation than say...you? Or Commy? Or Abookamongstthemany?
Go ahead and follow Hugo right to the bitter end, you people look more foolish with each passing day.
I can't speak for the others, but for me NO!!! Nor am I going entertain your feeble attempt to pit two people against each while offering nothing of substance in return. You come across as the person who always talk shit but can't back it up, so others feel sorry for you and step in. That's pitiful! You could at least come up with either your own point of view or a link to add to the discussion, instead you prefer to be a skirt rider.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
I know who Noam Chomsky is, I've read him and I don't find him as reliable as you do, mainly because I feel he's too biased. Regarding numbers, in spite of sounding arrogant I'll trust my expertise. I don't deny that the US could be giving money to their candidates of choice, what I find highly unlikely is the amount you mention, it can't be simply because of our countries demographics, you don't need that kind of money to win, much less run, a campaign. Not even in Brazil such resources would be needed.
I'm not downplaying the US influence, what I'm trying to explain to you is this: what happened during the 70's (not the 60's) in South America was a consequence of the Cold War, for every penny the US entered the region, there was a penny from the Soviet Union, or who do you think funded the Montoneros (largest guerilla army ever), Tupamaros, MIR, FAR, ERP, Shining Path... the list is large.
About Brazil, which dictatorship are you referring to? To Getulio Vargas? If that's the man you're talking about, well he carried out a major revolution in Brazil and Brazilians are very fond of him.
Finally, you should be more respectful towards us South American citizens, what's this "elections are not free", you think we're all puppets? Don't you patronize me. Except for the outbursts with Venezuela, the US has been pretty much absent from South America for the past 20 years.
Anyway, it's been interesting talking to you, but I really have to work,
Peace
If all the terror done to Latin America over the past 40 years was because of the cold war then why is it continuing today? Clinton gave Colombia 2 billion in military aid, including some 50 apache gunships. They claim its for the war on drugs, but you don't fight cocaine abuse with helicopters, its just really hard to do it that way.
Death squads are still operating, killing over 1000 members of the 1 party not owned by the corporate parties in Colombia-The Patriotic Union. And according to journalism from America's Watch, the Columbian military acts as an ocupying force as oppposed to a standing army, with atrocities common. The people live in fear and poverty and its called a successful democracy. That's one case, heavily influenced by US policy, still continuing today.
In Brazil the damage from US policy is still felt. I believe you called Brazil a success, which is accurate in a way. FRom a business point of view it has been successful, the 1% became extremely wealthy. But not everyone is in on the good times.
70% of the poplutiaon consume less calories then Iranians (remember this is a very resource rich environment). Half the populaiton have incomes below minimum wage. The World Bank compared Brazil's education system to Ethiopia, unvaforably. ANd with an 80% dropout rate its no wonder.
Death squads are killing children at a rate of 1 a day, according to a humna rights group. Families are tortured, police are brutal, poverty is common.
There are 2 Brazils, and this is the one most people never hear about, much like there are 2 latin americas. There's a side most people dont' even know about, a testament to the effectiveness of western propaganda.
If all the terror done to Latin America over the past 40 years was because of the cold war then why is it continuing today? Clinton gave Colombia 2 billion in military aid, including some 50 apache gunships. They claim its for the war on drugs, but you don't fight cocaine abuse with helicopters, its just really hard to do it that way.
Death squads are still operating, killing over 1000 members of the 1 party not owned by the corporate parties in Colombia-The Patriotic Union. And according to journalism from America's Watch, the Columbian military acts as an ocupying force as oppposed to a standing army, with atrocities common. The people live in fear and poverty and its called a successful democracy. That's one case, heavily influenced by US policy, still continuing today.
In Brazil the damage from US policy is still felt. I believe you called Brazil a success, which is accurate in a way. FRom a business point of view it has been successful, the 1% became extremely wealthy. But not everyone is in on the good times.
70% of the poplutiaon consume less calories then Iranians (remember this is a very resource rich environment). Half the populaiton have incomes below minimum wage. The World Bank compared Brazil's education system to Ethiopia, unvaforably. ANd with an 80% dropout rate its no wonder.
Death squads are killing children at a rate of 1 a day, according to a humna rights group. Families are tortured, police are brutal, poverty is common.
There are 2 Brazils, and this is the one most people never hear about, much like there are 2 latin americas. There's a side most people dont' even know about, a testament to the effectiveness of western propaganda.
Have I ever said that I agree with Plan Colombia? No, because I think that such amount of resources would better spent in helping the thounsands and thousands displaced by FARC, which I read Sen. Feingold intends to propose.
I don't want to come across as arrogant, since this is what I do for a living, I'm fully aware of Brazil's statistics and South America's statistics for that matter. Of course, Brazil still has a long way to go in terms of poverty and inequality reduction, but they're in the right track. Have you checked the latest statistics? They've improved significantly in both areas. Check the figures at the ECLAC website (which is UN's Economic Comission for Latin America and the Caribbean) http://www.eclac.org. Lula's plan Hambre Cero (i.e. Zero Hunger) has been very successful. Education enrollment and child mortality indicators have improved in several countries of Latin America, there's countries where advances have been more outstanding. And there's countries that already have an almost 100% enrollment rate, such as Costa Rica, Argentina and Chile. The 2003-2007 period has been the best for Latin America as a whole since the 80's. Poverty has diminished both in relative and in absolute terms. Of course, the reduction has not been evenly distributed among countries.
Bottom line is, all I wanted was to stress that Venezuela was wrong in trying to interfere in the Colombia-Ecuador issue, that was all. Prior to Chavez outburst, Ecuador's President had made a sensible and strong condemnation to Colombia's boder intrusion. Thankfully the OAS managed to tone down the crisis
Have I ever said that I agree with Plan Colombia? No, because I think that such amount of resources would better spent in helping the thounsands and thousands displaced by FARC, which I read Sen. Feingold intends to propose.
I don't want to come across as arrogant, since this is what I do for a living, I'm fully aware of Brazil's statistics and South America's statistics for that matter. Of course, Brazil still has a long way to go in terms of poverty and inequality reduction, but they're in the right track. Have you checked the latest statistics? They've improved significantly in both areas. Check the figures at the ECLAC website (which is UN's Economic Comission for Latin America and the Caribbean) http://www.eclac.org. Lula's plan Hambre Cero (i.e. Zero Hunger) has been very successful. Education enrollment and child mortality indicators have improved in several countries of Latin America, there's countries where advances have been more outstanding. And there's countries that already have an almost 100% enrollment rate, such as Costa Rica, Argentina and Chile. The 2003-2007 period has been the best for Latin America as a whole since the 80's. Poverty has diminished both in relative and in absolute terms. Of course, the reduction has not been evenly distributed among countries.
Bottom line is, all I wanted was to stress that Venezuela was wrong in trying to interfere in the Colombia-Ecuador issue, that was all. Prior to Chavez outburst, Ecuador's President had made a sensible and strong condemnation to Colombia's boder intrusion. Thankfully the OAS managed to tone down the crisis
At least this opinion is informed and seemingly unbiased. Some of you are so blind in your contempt for the United States government that you lose sight of actual facts and real history.
At least this opinion is informed and seemingly unbiased. Some of you are so blind in your contempt for the United States government that you lose sight of actual facts and real history.
holly weirdo, you have anything to actually offer on the subject?
Have I ever said that I agree with Plan Colombia? No, because I think that such amount of resources would better spent in helping the thounsands and thousands displaced by FARC, which I read Sen. Feingold intends to propose.
I don't want to come across as arrogant, since this is what I do for a living, I'm fully aware of Brazil's statistics and South America's statistics for that matter. Of course, Brazil still has a long way to go in terms of poverty and inequality reduction, but they're in the right track. Have you checked the latest statistics? They've improved significantly in both areas. Check the figures at the ECLAC website (which is UN's Economic Comission for Latin America and the Caribbean) http://www.eclac.org. Lula's plan Hambre Cero (i.e. Zero Hunger) has been very successful. Education enrollment and child mortality indicators have improved in several countries of Latin America, there's countries where advances have been more outstanding. And there's countries that already have an almost 100% enrollment rate, such as Costa Rica, Argentina and Chile. The 2003-2007 period has been the best for Latin America as a whole since the 80's. Poverty has diminished both in relative and in absolute terms. Of course, the reduction has not been evenly distributed among countries.
Bottom line is, all I wanted was to stress that Venezuela was wrong in trying to interfere in the Colombia-Ecuador issue, that was all. Prior to Chavez outburst, Ecuador's President had made a sensible and strong condemnation to Colombia's boder intrusion. Thankfully the OAS managed to tone down the crisis
I never said you agreed with plan Colombia, but it sounds like everything is going great if we listen to your version. I was simply pointing out that things arent' as good as the media (and you) would have us believe.
What legitimate money does FARC come by, and why would the head of our largest trading house be discussing such matters with leaders of a terrorist organization anyhow?
???
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
What legitimate money does FARC come by, and why would the head of our largest trading house be discussing such matters with leaders of a terrorist organization anyhow?
???
most businesses in the stock exchange are terrorist organizations anyway.
I never said you agreed with plan Colombia, but it sounds like everything is going great if we listen to your version. I was simply pointing out that things arent' as good as the media (and you) would have us believe.
If you listen to my version, you'll find out that as a region we still have a long way to go, but we've made some remarkable progress in the past 5 years, and it is not my version, you see it when you travel across South America.
Anyways, it's been nice discussing to you.
Have a great weekend
Caterina
I never said you agreed with plan Colombia, but it sounds like everything is going great if we listen to your version. I was simply pointing out that things arent' as good as the media (and you) would have us believe.
If you listen to my version, you'll find out that as a region we still have a long way to go, but we've made some remarkable progress in the past 5 years, and it is not my version, you see it when you travel across South America.
Anyways, it's been nice discussing to you.
Have a great weekend
Caterina
This is completely accurate. Sorry Caterina, there are alot of North Americans who purport to have expertise in politics who obviously flunked history. You are dead on.
...
So... if this holds true... then, using the same logic, Caterina has no opinions regarding the United States (or any other country, for that matter) that are worth a shit. Only people who live within their boundraries have a valid opinion... take Iraq, for example.
Right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Caterina, how dare you, as a resident of South America, attempt to argue with these Americans about the situation in Venezuela.
Despite the fact that they've never been south of the US border, they've read all of Chomsky, certainly this qualifies them as experts, why would you attempt to rebut their propaganda with facts?
It is funny to watch the leftists in America who championed Chavez absolutely scramble to come up with new defenses of him. He is wrecking his country inch by inch piece by piece, he has created the most specialized "economy" in modern history.
Also, I laugh at how militarism is the basest of all evils amongst my friends on the left, yet somehow it is acceptable and excuseable for Chavez.
It's a fascinating society he's building down there, a military junta built on the exchange of a single commodity.
I am a North American who has been all over Central and South America. So dont speak for me. And I think Chomsky is a fucking Communist.
...
So... if this holds true... then, using the same logic, Caterina has no opinions regarding the United States (or any other country, for that matter) that are worth a shit. Only people who live within their boundraries have a valid opinion... take Iraq, for example.
Right?
Her opinions sounds informed and well reasoned. The other views here are just the same anti-US rhetoric these same people post on every thread whether they are backed up by fact or not.
$300 Mllion from Chavez to FARC a Fake
By Greg Palast
Mar 8, 2008, 12:48
Do you believe this?
This past weekend, Colombia invaded Ecuador, killed a guerrilla chief in the jungle, opened his laptop – and what did the Colombians find? A message to Hugo Chavez that he’s sent the FARC guerrillas $300 million – which they’re using to obtain uranium to make a dirty bomb!
That’s what George Bush tells us. And he got that from his buddy, the strange right-wing President of Colombia, Alvaro Uribe.
So: After the fact, Colombia justifies its attempt to provoke a border war as a to stop the threat of WMDs! Uh, where have we heard that before?
The US press snorted up this line about Chavez’ $300 million to “terrorists” quicker than the young Bush inhaling Colombia’s powdered export.
What the US press did not do is look at the evidence, the email in the magic laptop. (Presumably, the FARC leader’s last words were, “Listen, my password is ….”)
I read them. While you can read it all in español, here is, in translation, the one and only mention of the alleged $300 million from Chavez is this:
“… With relation to the 300, which from now on we will call “dossier,” efforts are now going forward at the instructions of the boss to the cojo [slang term for ‘cripple’], which I will explain in a separate note. Let’s call the boss Ángel, and the cripple Ernesto.”
Got that? Where is Hugo? Where’s 300 million? And 300 what? Indeed, in context, the note is all about the hostage exchange with the FARC that Chavez was working on at the time (December 23, 2007) at the request of the Colombian government.
Indeed, the entire remainder of the email is all about the mechanism of the hostage exchange. Here’s the next line:
“To receive the three freed ones, Chavez proposes three options: Plan A. Do it to via of a ‘humanitarian caravan’; one that will involve Venezuela, France, the Vatican[?], Switzerland, European Union, democrats [civil society], Argentina, Red Cross, etc.”
As to the 300, I must note that the FARC’s previous prisoner exchange involved 300 prisoners. Is that what the ‘300’ refers to? ¿Quien sabe? Unlike Uribe, Bush and the US press, I won’t guess or make up a phastasmogoric story about Chavez spending money he doesn’t even have.
To bolster their case, the Colombians claim, with no evidence whatsoever, that the mysterious “Angel” is the code name for Chavez. But in the memo, Chavez goes by the code name … Chavez.
Well, so what? This is what.
Colombia’s invasion into Ecuador is a rank violation of international law, condemned by every single Latin member of the Organization of American States. And George Bush just loved it. He called Uribe to back Colombia, against, “the continuing assault by narco-terrorists as well as the provocative maneuvers by the regime in Venezuela.”
Well, our President may have gotten the facts ass-backward, but he Bush knows what he’s doing: shoring up his last, faltering ally in South America, Uribe, a desperate man in deep political trouble.
Uribe’s claims he is going to bring charges against Chavez before the International Criminal Court. If Uribe goes there in person, I suggest he take a toothbrush: it was just discovered that right-wing death squads held murder-planning sessions at Uribe’s ranch. Uribe’s associates have been called before the nation’s Supreme Court and may face prison.
In other words, it’s a good time for a desperate Uribe to use that old politico’s wheeze, the threat of war, to drown out accusations of his own criminality. Furthermore, Uribe’s attack literally killed negotiations with FARC by killing FARC’s negotiator, Raul Reyes. Reyes was in talks with both Ecuador and Chavez about another prisoner exchange. Uribe authorized the negotiations, however, he knew, should those talks have succeeded in obtaining the release of those kidnapped by the FARC, credit would have been heaped on Ecuador and Chavez, and discredit heaped on Uribe.
Luckily for a hemisphere the verge of flames, the President of Ecuador, Raphael Correa, is one of the most level-headed, thoughtful men I’ve ever encountered.
Correa is now flying from Quito to Brazilia to Caracas to keep the region from blowing sky high. While moving troops to his border – no chief of state can permit foreign tanks on their sovereign soil – Correa also refuses sanctuary to the FARC . Indeed, Ecuador has routed out 47 FARC bases, a better track record than Colombia’s own, corrupt military.
For his cool, peaceable handling of the crisis, I will forgive Correa for apologizing for his calling Bush, “a dimwitted President who has done great damage to his country and the world.”
Comments
I can't speak for the others, but for me NO!!! Nor am I going entertain your feeble attempt to pit two people against each while offering nothing of substance in return. You come across as the person who always talk shit but can't back it up, so others feel sorry for you and step in. That's pitiful! You could at least come up with either your own point of view or a link to add to the discussion, instead you prefer to be a skirt rider.
If all the terror done to Latin America over the past 40 years was because of the cold war then why is it continuing today? Clinton gave Colombia 2 billion in military aid, including some 50 apache gunships. They claim its for the war on drugs, but you don't fight cocaine abuse with helicopters, its just really hard to do it that way.
Death squads are still operating, killing over 1000 members of the 1 party not owned by the corporate parties in Colombia-The Patriotic Union. And according to journalism from America's Watch, the Columbian military acts as an ocupying force as oppposed to a standing army, with atrocities common. The people live in fear and poverty and its called a successful democracy. That's one case, heavily influenced by US policy, still continuing today.
In Brazil the damage from US policy is still felt. I believe you called Brazil a success, which is accurate in a way. FRom a business point of view it has been successful, the 1% became extremely wealthy. But not everyone is in on the good times.
70% of the poplutiaon consume less calories then Iranians (remember this is a very resource rich environment). Half the populaiton have incomes below minimum wage. The World Bank compared Brazil's education system to Ethiopia, unvaforably. ANd with an 80% dropout rate its no wonder.
Death squads are killing children at a rate of 1 a day, according to a humna rights group. Families are tortured, police are brutal, poverty is common.
There are 2 Brazils, and this is the one most people never hear about, much like there are 2 latin americas. There's a side most people dont' even know about, a testament to the effectiveness of western propaganda.
Have I ever said that I agree with Plan Colombia? No, because I think that such amount of resources would better spent in helping the thounsands and thousands displaced by FARC, which I read Sen. Feingold intends to propose.
I don't want to come across as arrogant, since this is what I do for a living, I'm fully aware of Brazil's statistics and South America's statistics for that matter. Of course, Brazil still has a long way to go in terms of poverty and inequality reduction, but they're in the right track. Have you checked the latest statistics? They've improved significantly in both areas. Check the figures at the ECLAC website (which is UN's Economic Comission for Latin America and the Caribbean) http://www.eclac.org. Lula's plan Hambre Cero (i.e. Zero Hunger) has been very successful. Education enrollment and child mortality indicators have improved in several countries of Latin America, there's countries where advances have been more outstanding. And there's countries that already have an almost 100% enrollment rate, such as Costa Rica, Argentina and Chile. The 2003-2007 period has been the best for Latin America as a whole since the 80's. Poverty has diminished both in relative and in absolute terms. Of course, the reduction has not been evenly distributed among countries.
Bottom line is, all I wanted was to stress that Venezuela was wrong in trying to interfere in the Colombia-Ecuador issue, that was all. Prior to Chavez outburst, Ecuador's President had made a sensible and strong condemnation to Colombia's boder intrusion. Thankfully the OAS managed to tone down the crisis
I never said you agreed with plan Colombia, but it sounds like everything is going great if we listen to your version. I was simply pointing out that things arent' as good as the media (and you) would have us believe.
What legitimate money does FARC come by, and why would the head of our largest trading house be discussing such matters with leaders of a terrorist organization anyhow?
???
If I opened it now would you not understand?
If you listen to my version, you'll find out that as a region we still have a long way to go, but we've made some remarkable progress in the past 5 years, and it is not my version, you see it when you travel across South America.
Anyways, it's been nice discussing to you.
Have a great weekend
Caterina
If you listen to my version, you'll find out that as a region we still have a long way to go, but we've made some remarkable progress in the past 5 years, and it is not my version, you see it when you travel across South America.
Anyways, it's been nice discussing to you.
Have a great weekend
Caterina
So... if this holds true... then, using the same logic, Caterina has no opinions regarding the United States (or any other country, for that matter) that are worth a shit. Only people who live within their boundraries have a valid opinion... take Iraq, for example.
Right?
Hail, Hail!!!
I am a North American who has been all over Central and South America. So dont speak for me. And I think Chomsky is a fucking Communist.
By Greg Palast
Mar 8, 2008, 12:48
Do you believe this?
This past weekend, Colombia invaded Ecuador, killed a guerrilla chief in the jungle, opened his laptop – and what did the Colombians find? A message to Hugo Chavez that he’s sent the FARC guerrillas $300 million – which they’re using to obtain uranium to make a dirty bomb!
That’s what George Bush tells us. And he got that from his buddy, the strange right-wing President of Colombia, Alvaro Uribe.
So: After the fact, Colombia justifies its attempt to provoke a border war as a to stop the threat of WMDs! Uh, where have we heard that before?
The US press snorted up this line about Chavez’ $300 million to “terrorists” quicker than the young Bush inhaling Colombia’s powdered export.
What the US press did not do is look at the evidence, the email in the magic laptop. (Presumably, the FARC leader’s last words were, “Listen, my password is ….”)
I read them. While you can read it all in español, here is, in translation, the one and only mention of the alleged $300 million from Chavez is this:
“… With relation to the 300, which from now on we will call “dossier,” efforts are now going forward at the instructions of the boss to the cojo [slang term for ‘cripple’], which I will explain in a separate note. Let’s call the boss Ángel, and the cripple Ernesto.”
Got that? Where is Hugo? Where’s 300 million? And 300 what? Indeed, in context, the note is all about the hostage exchange with the FARC that Chavez was working on at the time (December 23, 2007) at the request of the Colombian government.
Indeed, the entire remainder of the email is all about the mechanism of the hostage exchange. Here’s the next line:
“To receive the three freed ones, Chavez proposes three options: Plan A. Do it to via of a ‘humanitarian caravan’; one that will involve Venezuela, France, the Vatican[?], Switzerland, European Union, democrats [civil society], Argentina, Red Cross, etc.”
As to the 300, I must note that the FARC’s previous prisoner exchange involved 300 prisoners. Is that what the ‘300’ refers to? ¿Quien sabe? Unlike Uribe, Bush and the US press, I won’t guess or make up a phastasmogoric story about Chavez spending money he doesn’t even have.
To bolster their case, the Colombians claim, with no evidence whatsoever, that the mysterious “Angel” is the code name for Chavez. But in the memo, Chavez goes by the code name … Chavez.
Well, so what? This is what.
Colombia’s invasion into Ecuador is a rank violation of international law, condemned by every single Latin member of the Organization of American States. And George Bush just loved it. He called Uribe to back Colombia, against, “the continuing assault by narco-terrorists as well as the provocative maneuvers by the regime in Venezuela.”
Well, our President may have gotten the facts ass-backward, but he Bush knows what he’s doing: shoring up his last, faltering ally in South America, Uribe, a desperate man in deep political trouble.
Uribe’s claims he is going to bring charges against Chavez before the International Criminal Court. If Uribe goes there in person, I suggest he take a toothbrush: it was just discovered that right-wing death squads held murder-planning sessions at Uribe’s ranch. Uribe’s associates have been called before the nation’s Supreme Court and may face prison.
In other words, it’s a good time for a desperate Uribe to use that old politico’s wheeze, the threat of war, to drown out accusations of his own criminality. Furthermore, Uribe’s attack literally killed negotiations with FARC by killing FARC’s negotiator, Raul Reyes. Reyes was in talks with both Ecuador and Chavez about another prisoner exchange. Uribe authorized the negotiations, however, he knew, should those talks have succeeded in obtaining the release of those kidnapped by the FARC, credit would have been heaped on Ecuador and Chavez, and discredit heaped on Uribe.
Luckily for a hemisphere the verge of flames, the President of Ecuador, Raphael Correa, is one of the most level-headed, thoughtful men I’ve ever encountered.
Correa is now flying from Quito to Brazilia to Caracas to keep the region from blowing sky high. While moving troops to his border – no chief of state can permit foreign tanks on their sovereign soil – Correa also refuses sanctuary to the FARC . Indeed, Ecuador has routed out 47 FARC bases, a better track record than Colombia’s own, corrupt military.
For his cool, peaceable handling of the crisis, I will forgive Correa for apologizing for his calling Bush, “a dimwitted President who has done great damage to his country and the world.”
Fair enough.
Hw bout just freak.....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23549926/