If China Just Opened Their Border

NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
edited October 2006 in A Moving Train
North Korea would totaly collapse as millions of regugees would flee that hell-hole of a country.

I don't understand why people blame American policy for KJI obtaining nuclear weapons. What did we do wrong? Where did we go astray?

There was little we could do in the first place. We had hardly any carrots to offer them, we have little influence with North Korea. We did sign an agreement under Clinton, and KJI just went ahead anyway with his nuclear plans. He's a liar, and a professional blackmailer.

China is the main player here. They de facto keep North Korea on life support with their shipments of food and oil.

The fact that the U.S. is trying to keep nuclear weapons out of North Korea shows our moral obligation to try and help. Fuckin A, at least we've tried to do something....
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    your way off dude. America did it.
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    jlew24asu wrote:
    your way off dude. America did it.

    Please explain, cause I don't see it.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    NCfan wrote:
    Please explain, cause I don't see it.


    extreme sacasm. I agree with ya.
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    One problem that has never been addressed properly is the end of the Korean War.....it like our relationship with Cuba was encased in lucite and placed high on a shelf never more to be discussed. Why??? Fill in your best guest right here ____________.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    NCfan wrote:
    North Korea would totaly collapse as millions of regugees would flee that hell-hole of a country.
    ...
    Which is why China will not open her borders.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Which is why China will not open her borders.
    The correct answer............
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    tybird wrote:
    The correct answer............
    ...
    and as China expands her industrial might and its economy moves more towards a wierd blend of Communist Consumerism... they can outsource labor costs to North Korea... sort of like what we did with Mexico, then China.
    You gotta do work for really cheap wages if China can save money there.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    and as China expands her industrial might and its economy moves more towards a wierd blend of Communist Consumerism... they can outsource labor costs to North Korea... sort of like what we did with Mexico, then China.
    You gotta do work for really cheap wages if China can save money there.
    They would have to build some type of infrastructure in North Korea, besides with their population (China's), why look else where for cheap labor?
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    tybird wrote:
    They would have to build some type of infrastructure in North Korea, besides with their population (China's), why look else where for cheap labor?
    ...
    That's the great thing about it... it is costs 5 cents per unit to make in China... China can outsource it to North Korean dissident slave camps for 1 cent per 100 units.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    That's the great thing about it... it is costs 5 cents per unit to make in China... China can outsource it to North Korean dissident slave camps for 1 cent per 100 units.

    Heck, China can just agree to feed the workers at a few pennies a day, and they'll be set.
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    That's the great thing about it... it is costs 5 cents per unit to make in China... China can outsource it to North Korean dissident slave camps for 1 cent per 100 units.
    True.......but somebody's got to build the factory and provide electricity and such.......would China want to invest that kind of money in such a plan when there are millions of underemployed/transient workers wandering across their own country?
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    tybird wrote:
    True.......but somebody's got to build the factory and provide electricity and such.......would China want to invest that kind of money in such a plan when there are millions of underemployed/transient workers wandering across their own country?
    ...
    I'm thinkin', down the road from here.
    China will emerge as the great economic power. It all depends on how she handles it. I hope she learns from the mistakes we made regarding the environment, because China has the potential to really fucking up the place.
    As China's economy grows... who knows whether China will decide on people as strength and resource.. or fall into the personal wealth/greed trap we did. Maybe their Maoist tendencies will favor screwing over the North Koreans in favor of their own populous.
    But, really... who knows.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I'm thinkin', down the road from here.
    China will emerge as the great economic power. It all depends on how she handles it. I hope she learns from the mistakes we made regarding the environment, because China has the potential to really fucking up the place.
    As China's economy grows... who knows whether China will decide on people as strength and resource.. or fall into the personal wealth/greed trap we did. Maybe their Maoist tendencies will favor screwing over the North Koreans in favor of their own populous.
    But, really... who knows.
    Their Maoist tendencies and an environmental policy has historically been a bad mix for the environment. The Cultural Revolution resulted in several extinctions of native flora/fauna in the nation due to party policy. So learning from our mistakes would require a 180 degree swing in their policy towards the environment (with the exception of Giant Pandas, which are basically a cash cow for the PRC). There are other environmental issues such as the Three Gorges Dam and the seemingly endless chemical spills on the Amur River.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    tybird wrote:
    Their Maoist tendencies and an environmental policy has historically been a bad mix for the environment. The Cultural Revolution resulted in several extinctions of native flora/fauna in the nation due to party policy. So learning from our mistakes would require a 180 degree swing in their policy towards the environment (with the exception of Giant Pandas, which are basically a cash cow for the PRC). There are other environmental issues such as the Three Gorges Dam and the seemingly endless chemical spills on the Amur River.
    ...
    I really do HOPE they do... but, the fact remains... they are fucking China. So, although it's barely there, hope is still alive.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I really do HOPE they do... but, the fact remains... they are fucking China. So, although it's barely there, hope is still alive.
    True....China has always been a wild card in the "Game." You never know what they are going to do.....and you will make yourself crazy trying to guess what they will or will not do. I also hope that they come on around on the environmental issue.........hopefully other animals and plants will benefit from their "Save the Pandas" efforts.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • truroutetruroute Posts: 251
    North Korea is a stick in US's side as Taiwan is a stick in China's side. China could easily fix the NK problem. But hey, why do the US a favor if they wont let us take over Taiwan?
  • truroute wrote:
    North Korea is a stick in US's side as Taiwan is a stick in China's side. China could easily fix the NK problem. But hey, why do the US a favor if they wont let us take over Taiwan?
    THe US and UN could just as easily "fix" the problem by withdrawing from South Korea. Let Korea become one Nation again as Germany did.
    "So forget the other boys because my love is real.
    Come off your battlefield."
  • truroutetruroute Posts: 251
    THe US and UN could just as easily "fix" the problem by withdrawing from South Korea. Let Korea become one Nation again as Germany did.

    Wow, you figured it out. Just leave and a Wacko Narcissic Dictator will step down and leave his position of playin God.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    NCfan wrote:
    The fact that the U.S. is trying to keep nuclear weapons out of North Korea shows our moral obligation to try and help. Fuckin A, at least we've tried to do something....

    But you don't think the U.S has a moral obligation to abide by the non-proliferation treaty which it signed up to and which the Bush gang has flouted? You don't think that America's and Israels pursuit of more nuclear weapons, and the aggressive. expansionist behaviour of both these countries has anything to do with why other nations are seeking to arm themselves?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    truroute wrote:
    North Korea is a stick in US's side as Taiwan is a stick in China's side. China could easily fix the NK problem. But hey, why do the US a favor if they wont let us take over Taiwan?


    North Korea is a stick in the US's side, and Cuba is a stick in the US's side, and iraq is a stick in the US's side, and Iran is a stick in the US's side, and Syria is a stick in the US's side, and China is a stick in the US's side, and Venezuela is a stick in the US's side e.t.c.

    Shit, America must look a bit like Custer at the end of the Battle of the Little Big Horn the way you describe it! :eek:
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    Byrnzie wrote:
    But you don't think the U.S has a moral obligation to abide by the non-proliferation treaty which it signed up to and which the Bush gang has flouted? You don't think that America's and Israels pursuit of more nuclear weapons, and the aggressive. expansionist behaviour of both these countries has anything to do with why other nations are seeking to arm themselves?

    The last time America added territory to our nation was 1898, I don't understand your "expansionist" remark.

    Since you include Israel, I would have to point out that between them and Palestine, Isreal was the last to give back land (Gaza) this year. But since you raise the issue of Israel, we have to go back to the begining.....

    About 3 million years ago, humans (or our distant relatives) started to roam the earth. Over the millinea, our population expanded all over the globe. Humans are social animals, and from the very start we organized ourselves into tribes. Over time, tribes became nations.

    All throughout this history, tribes/nations have been warring with each other. if you go back far enough, there is not a single nation on this earth whose borders exist without the influence of war and conflict between groups.

    So what the fuck is palestines problem? They have NO chance.... NO FUCKING CHANCE IN HELL of ever coexisting with Israel, becuase they cannot let their religion live in peace with the reality that has been and is our world.

    Since 1948, dozens of other countries have been carved up and divided by the powers that be - in an attempt to forge a peaceful coexistence between dissenting groups.

    Palestinians will never have the power to overthrow or destroy Israel, so they need to just realize that what happened in the past is just that... the past. The cry for justice is moot. Sometiems there is no justice in this world.... there is no way to make things right. Hundreds of millions of humans have lived their lives in slavery and misery. The fact that the Palestinians are dealing with Israel, instead of a country like China - gives them all the more incentive to create a peaceful existence.

    This is one of those cases where no true justice can be found. Because the Palestinians choose to elect leaders who would rather sacrifice their lives and their childrens lives in an attempt to avenge lost honor - I view them as idiots. I have no sympathy for them.

    You cannot forge a new road, when you are always looking backwards. The Palestinian people are a prisoner to their religion and ignorance.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    NCfan wrote:
    The last time America added territory to our nation was 1898, I don't understand your "expansionist" remark.

    Since you include Israel, I would have to point out that between them and Palestine, Isreal was the last to give back land (Gaza) this year. But since you raise the issue of Israel, we have to go back to the begining.....

    About 3 million years ago, humans (or our distant relatives) started to roam the earth. Over the millinea, our population expanded all over the globe. Humans are social animals, and from the very start we organized ourselves into tribes. Over time, tribes became nations.

    All throughout this history, tribes/nations have been warring with each other. if you go back far enough, there is not a single nation on this earth whose borders exist without the influence of war and conflict between groups.

    So what the fuck is palestines problem? They have NO chance.... NO FUCKING CHANCE IN HELL of ever coexisting with Israel, becuase they cannot let their religion live in peace with the reality that has been and is our world.

    Since 1948, dozens of other countries have been carved up and divided by the powers that be - in an attempt to forge a peaceful coexistence between dissenting groups.

    Palestinians will never have the power to overthrow or destroy Israel, so they need to just realize that what happened in the past is just that... the past. The cry for justice is moot. Sometiems there is no justice in this world.... there is no way to make things right. Hundreds of millions of humans have lived their lives in slavery and misery. The fact that the Palestinians are dealing with Israel, instead of a country like China - gives them all the more incentive to create a peaceful existence.

    This is one of those cases where no true justice can be found. Because the Palestinians choose to elect leaders who would rather sacrifice their lives and their childrens lives in an attempt to avenge lost honor - I view them as idiots. I have no sympathy for them.

    You cannot forge a new road, when you are always looking backwards. The Palestinian people are a prisoner to their religion and ignorance.

    Expansionist doesn't neccesarily mean added territory to a nation. I.e, The U.S didn't add most of Latin America to it's nation during the 1980's and yet it still controlled that area by means of proxy wars and self apointed tyrants. Iraq isn't the 53rd state of America and yet the U.S is there for one reason: OIL. Need I go on?
    You say that Palestines problem is that "They have NO chance.... NO FUCKING CHANCE IN HELL of ever coexisting with Israel, becuase they cannot let their religion live in peace.."? And "the Palestinians choose to elect leaders who would rather sacrifice their lives and their childrens lives in an attempt to avenge lost honor - I view them as idiots. I have no sympathy for them."
    Interesting. I wish I'd encountered you earlier on this board. You've cleared everything up for me.
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Iraq isn't the 53rd state of America
    May I ask who or what are the 51st and 52nd states????
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    tybird wrote:
    May I ask who or what are the 51st and 52nd states????

    Its probably an Israel joke.
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    Its probably an Israel joke.
    That still lives one more state........Canada..........Mexico????
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • China has no interest in the NK regime collapsing. Therefore, I don't see it happening.

    The only people with a rational interest in the NK regime collapsing are the North Korean people. Unfortunately, like so many throughout the world, they accept the existence of necessary evil.
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    The only people with a rational interest in the NK regime collapsing are the North Korean people. Unfortunately, like so many throughout the world, they accept the existence of necessary evil.
    Could it be that they accept the "necessary evil" because it is all that they know?
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • tybird wrote:
    Could it be that they accept the "necessary evil" because it is all that they know?

    No, for the same reason you may reject slavery without ever having been a slave.

    The very fact that these evils are "all they have ever known" is all the more reason to reject them.
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    No, for the same reason you may reject slavery without ever having been a slave.

    The very fact that these evils are "all they have ever known" is all the more reason to reject them.
    Not really catching your argument........you can reject slavery w/o being a slave because you can see both sides and recognize the evil. If you only see one side, how are you to know that a difference exists?
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • tybird wrote:
    Not really catching your argument........you can reject slavery w/o being a slave because you can see both sides and recognize the evil. If you only see one side, how are you to know that a difference exists?

    A thinking being can always see the duality of oppression and freedom, regardless of that being's circumstances. That is why you can recognize the crime of slavery without ever having been a slave. That is why a North Korean citizen who has never been free can recognize the crimes committed against them.

    A being that cannot recognize the difference between oppression and freedom is often known as a dog. North Koreans are not dogs...instinctual slaves to their environment without the ability to think or to reason.

    The apathy you see amongst many people of this world, including many citizens of North Korea, is the wicked combination of fear and a concomitant acceptance of necessary evils within their lives. It is not as if people do not know better. It is that they actively seek to not know better.
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