Your Thoughts on Withdrawing from Iraq

NCfan

What do you guys think will happen if we withdrawl from Iraq? I think a civil war would ensue that may take years to define a winner. In the meantime, Al Qaida and other terrorist organizations will have a lawless territory where they can hide and plot against the West. Meanwhile, Iran and Syria will become emboldened and will certainly support the Shia forces fighting in the civil war. Iran will obtain a nuclear weapon or nuclear material which they can give to any terrorist group they wish. Remember, Iran created and sponsors Hizbollah. Seems to me that anyone who thinks Iraq isn't connected to wider geopolitics doesn't know what their talking about. At this point, Iraq isn't about an unlawful war launched by a liar president under false pretenses. It might have been about that in the begining. But at this point, winning in Iraq has much larger implications. We cannot fail there or we will forfeit our position of dominance in the world to terrorists and theocratic states.

So what are your thoughts?

jlew24asu

I agree with you. The only thing we need to do a better job at is putting more pressure on the Iraqi government to take over. which is what I saw yesterday. the prime minister say he thinks they can be ready by spring 07. I want our boys home more then anything, but I dont see how we benefit from leaving right now or even in 6 months.

HANKTHELANK

My Thoughts Are That The Word Terrorism Has Lost Complete Meaning.....fighters In Iraq Are Not Terrorists, They Are Simply Doing What Any Country Would Do If Invaded. And As Far As Leaving Goes, With Regards To Human Lives, I Don't Think It Matters. The Only Thing That Will Change Is That The U.s. With Loose Control Of Iraq's Oil.

jlew24asu

HANKTHELANK wrote:

My Thoughts Are That The Word Terrorism Has Lost Complete Meaning.....fighters In Iraq Are Not Terrorists, They Are Simply Doing What Any Country Would Do If Invaded. And As Far As Leaving Goes, With Regards To Human Lives, I Don't Think It Matters. The Only Thing That Will Change Is That The U.s. With Loose Control Of Iraq's Oil.

Why Do You Type Like This?


stop with the oil bullshit. America isnt there to control Iraqs oil. Last I checked america and all other industrialized nations need oil. Oil is important. and so is fighting terrorism and giving control of the middle east to Iran.

these fighters in Iraq you speak of arent defending Iraq. they are foreign fighters defending osama bin laden and the koran.

the ones killing each other are defending Iraq, or al least the territory they claim to be theirs.

NCfan

HANKTHELANK wrote:

My Thoughts Are That The Word Terrorism Has Lost Complete Meaning.....fighters In Iraq Are Not Terrorists, They Are Simply Doing What Any Country Would Do If Invaded. And As Far As Leaving Goes, With Regards To Human Lives, I Don't Think It Matters. The Only Thing That Will Change Is That The U.s. With Loose Control Of Iraq's Oil.

So you are okay with groups like Al-Qaida having a safe haven where they can strengthen, grow, train and plot attacks on Western civilization? Because if we leave, that will certainly happen. Just to be clear here, you do realize what these groups stand for, correct?

HANKTHELANK

And A Small Note, It Pisses Me Off How People Who Refer To The Winner Of A War.....ther Isn't One, Everybody Looses......except For Oil Companies And Arms Dealers.

NCfan

HANKTHELANK wrote:

And A Small Note, It Pisses Me Off How People Who Refer To The Winner Of A War.....ther Isn't One, Everybody Looses......except For Oil Companies And Arms Dealers.

And a large note to you... it pisses me off when people are too pussy to answer simple qustions becuase the obvious answers invalidates their fucked up ideology...

HANKTHELANK

You guys are buying the propoganda....if Al Qaida wanted to terrorise the U.S or other western countries wouldn't the most effective means be to start suicide bombings. If these people were able to take control of 4 jumbo jets, i'm sure they can get into the country, especially england, and start blowing themselves up. There is no terroist threat!!! Al Qaida works for the CIA. Bin Laden is a patsy!! It is simply a bunch of lies, to make you afraid. And apparently it is working.

RainDog

NCfan wrote:

What do you guys think will happen if we withdrawl from Iraq? I think a civil war would ensue that may take years to define a winner. In the meantime, Al Qaida and other terrorist organizations will have a lawless territory where they can hide and plot against the West. Meanwhile, Iran and Syria will become emboldened and will certainly support the Shia forces fighting in the civil war. Iran will obtain a nuclear weapon or nuclear material which they can give to any terrorist group they wish. Remember, Iran created and sponsors Hizbollah. Seems to me that anyone who thinks Iraq isn't connected to wider geopolitics doesn't know what their talking about. At this point, Iraq isn't about an unlawful war launched by a liar president under false pretenses. It might have been about that in the begining. But at this point, winning in Iraq has much larger implications. We cannot fail there or we will forfeit our position of dominance in the world to terrorists and theocratic states.

So what are your thoughts?

So basically what you're saying is if we leave, all the same stuff that's going on now will continue, only without our troops in the middle?

About the only way to fix this problem is by inventing a time machine and never going in in the first place. However, I'm a realist, and I know that's not possible. So, I say do our best to stabilize where we can while gradually pulling out our troops over the next few months to a year. Or, in a more likely scenario, wait until we get another president and then start the pull out - which will take a few months to a year and, generally, have the same overall effect as doing it now.

I don't know. Maybe if we wait, we'll get more of that sweet sweet victory than we have now. Being unable to recognize what that victory looks like, and with everyone in support of this war being completely unable to describe to me what said victory looks like, I'm not sure how much of it we have now, so therefore won't be able to make a comparison with how much of it we'll have later.

Oh, and for accuracy's sake, the word "ensue" you used after "civil war" should be changed to "continue."

TheVoiceInside

Get the fuck out its not their country. Let the Iraqis figure it out for themselves.

Pacomc79

the same as I thought when they invaded in 2002.

Really really bad idea to invade but once they did it, good luck pulling out.

Pulling out is only going to cause even more bloodshed. Yeah everybody will be happy that the US is gone...except that then they remember how much they hate the sunni's or the shiites and we have this nice big power stuggle until some new dictator is chosen (who may even be worse than Saddam) and he whips everyone into shape for another 2 decades and the bulk of the people of the country are still dirt poor while the new dictator builds palaces for himself on oil money....

It was a remarkably stupid idea to invade Iraq in the first place. Now that we've caused so many problems, it's pretty much our deal to repair the mess too.

The iraqui government is not strong enough to stave off a civil war.

The only victory would be in protecting the new governement until they are strong enough to defend themselves.

jlew24asu

HANKTHELANK wrote:

You guys are buying the propoganda....if Al Qaida wanted to terrorise the U.S or other western countries wouldn't the most effective means be to start suicide bombings. If these people were able to take control of 4 jumbo jets, i'm sure they can get into the country, especially england, and start blowing themselves up. There is no terroist threat!!! Al Qaida works for the CIA. Bin Laden is a patsy!! It is simply a bunch of lies, to make you afraid. And apparently it is working.

http://myafn.dodmedia.osd.mil/img/tv/criticschoice/OldSchool.jpg

TheVoiceInside

Pacomc79 wrote:

the same as I thought when they invaded in 2002.

Really really bad idea to invade but once they did it, good luck pulling out.

Pulling out is only going to cause even more bloodshed. Yeah everybody will be happy that the US is gone...except that then they remember how much they hate the sunni's or the shiites and we have this nice big power stuggle until some new dictator is chosen (who may even be worse than Saddam) and he whips everyone into shape for another 2 decades and the bulk of the people of the country are still dirt poor while the new dictator builds palaces for himself on oil money....

It was a remarkably stupid idea to invade Iraq in the first place. Now that we've caused so many problems, it's pretty much our deal to repair the mess too.




.
The iraqui government is not strong enough to stave off a civil war.

Iraqis dont want us to fix anything, they want us to leave. At least that is the sense that i get. And we should let them resolve their problems between them I think they are capable of doing it.

jlew24asu

TheVoiceInside wrote:

Iraqis dont want us to fix anything, they want us to leave. At least that is the sense that i get. And we should let them resolve their problems between them I think they are capable of doing it.

there's more to it then letting Iraqis fix it themselves. what if they dont and el queda or Iran take over?

better idea is to stay until its fixed correctly. with a united sovereign government. is this possible? I hope so, I dont know yet.

FredFlintstone

NCfan wrote:

So you are okay with groups like Al-Qaida having a safe haven where they can strengthen, grow, train and plot attacks on Western civilization? Because if we leave, that will certainly happen. Just to be clear here, you do realize what these groups stand for, correct?

I got news for you - its happening all over the world thanks to the intellectual geniuses (and chickenhawks) who thought that invading and occupying an Arab nation (unprovoked nonetheless) would somehow CURB terrorism and help Israel.

The people of the ME aren't stupid. I have my doubts about many Americans and people who supported this "war".
You don't think Al Qaeda has safe have in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia???
yet we export BILLIONS of dollars in weapons and technologoy to them.
Terrorism cannot be defated by governments - only thru the ppl.
And bombing the fuck out of Iraq, and occupying the country, while torturing its citizens, stealing its wealth, and destroying its infrastructure, shutting out Iraqis from the reconstruction process (while US companies make a huge profit from it) certainly won't help our image in the ME.

TheVoiceInside

jlew24asu wrote:

there's more to it then letting Iraqis fix it themselves. what if they dont and el queda or Iran take over?

better idea is to stay until its fixed correctly. with a united sovereign government. is this possible? I hope so, I dont know yet.

As long as we are there Iraq will never have a sovereing goverment

NCfan

FredFlintstone wrote:

I got news for you - its happening all over the world thanks to the intellectual geniuses (and chickenhawks) who thought that invading and occupying an Arab nation (unprovoked nonetheless) would somehow CURB terrorism and help Israel.

The people of the ME aren't stupid. I have my doubts about many Americans and people who supported this "war".
You don't think Al Qaeda has safe have in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia???
yet we export BILLIONS of dollars in weapons and technologoy to them.
Terrorism cannot be defated by governments - only thru the ppl.
And bombing the fuck out of Iraq, and occupying the country, while torturing its citizens, stealing its wealth, and destroying its infrastructure, shutting out Iraqis from the reconstruction process (while US companies make a huge profit from it) certainly won't help our image in the ME.

Yes, the plan to invade and ocupy and ME country was intelectual genious. The problem is, the war planners and the administration completely fucked up the implementation. There is no reason our military couldn't control the country and then allow a political solution to develop.

Just like you said, terrorism can only be defeated by the people. Well, ALL of the people over there are controled by opressive governments who control them and their attitudes through lies and propaganda. The BEST way to influence them is by showing them their are alternatives to theocracy or dictators. Iraq was going to be that example, but we fucked it up.

jlew24asu

TheVoiceInside wrote:

As long as we are there Iraq will never have a sovereing goverment

not completely true. we just need to turn over security to them and send the combat troops home. training officers and some military people will stay to help. but I know what you meant.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

I think the current Iraqi government should be supported as much as possible, because it is pretty much legit. The Iraqis fought very hard to install their own form of government against U.S. pressure, and not have one forced on them. If the Iraqi government want us out immediately (which I don't think they do), then we should leave immediately. If they want a phased withdrawal with a time table and continued military/economic aid thereafter, then we should do that (I believe that is what most polls have been showing).

FredFlintstone

NCfan wrote:

Yes, the plan to invade and ocupy and ME country was intelectual genious. The problem is, the war planners and the administration completely fucked up the implementation. There is no reason our military couldn't control the country and then allow a political solution to develop.

Just like you said, terrorism can only be defeated by the people. Well, ALL of the people over there are controled by opressive governments who control them and their attitudes through lies and propaganda. The BEST way to influence them is by showing them their are alternatives to theocracy or dictators. Iraq was going to be that example, but we fucked it up.

I really don't understand this line of thinking. Honestly I don't. How was INVADING iraq a good idea? This thinking was drummed up by a bunch of pseudo intellectuals like Wolfowitz, Feith, perle, Adelman, Kristol, Rumsfeld, etc....who have no military experience or human capital invested in the outcome. Yet the thought we would be welcomed a liberators with flowers....remember that?
When has invading an occupying a country ever worked.


These very dictators you mention above are mainly funded by US arms sales, oil money, and military tehcnology exported by the US.

And I fail to see how invading a country unprovoked and "Shock n Awe" is somehow good for the people of Iraq. They have suffered enough.

TheVoiceInside

jlew24asu wrote:

not completely true. we just need to turn over security to them and send the combat troops home. training officers and some military people will stay to help. but I know what you meant.

yeah i get it, a phasing out process. ok. but those training officers and military people that are left behind are the ones who are going to have all the power in Iraq. I know its all a matter of trust. We dont trust them to do this because we think all arabs are nuts. But when have we really trusted them? maybe if we just let them be we might be surprised at the result. We already did them a favor by taking out Sadaam now let do them another and get the F out.