Iraq - The Best Story of the Year

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

pure iles and propoganda.

Not lies or propaganda, no. But probably an underestimation...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep2007/orb-s15.shtml
'For security reasons, no interviews were conducted in Al Anbar or Karbala provinces, or in the province of Irbil, where Kurdish authorities refused to allow field interviews. Since Anbar and Karbala are among the bloodiest battlefields of the war, and Irbil among the quietest, the exclusion of the three provinces would more likely to lead to an underestimation of the death toll than an exaggeration.'

jlew24asu

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

yeah, don't you know how many suicide bombings occur in the US every day?? oh well, i guess its just humans being humans.

what a disgraceful excuse you present with the "humans being humans" line. you can not justify what we are doing over there any longer, so instead you generalize the entire human race and cite our propensity for violence. there are far fewer murderers in the world than there are murderers so that line is more propaganda than the war dead estimates..

america, fuck yeah!!

no, suicide bombs dont happen in america, murders do. same thing, different method. and I was quoting someone else, its humans being humans. sad isnt it?

sunnis and shittes have hated each other for 700 years, I don't expect them to love each other after 4. its going to take time. probably a generation. but at least this time they have a chance.

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

Not lies or propaganda, no. But probably an underestimation...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep2007/orb-s15.shtml
'For security reasons, no interviews were conducted in Al Anbar or Karbala provinces, or in the province of Irbil, where Kurdish authorities refused to allow field interviews. Since Anbar and Karbala are among the bloodiest battlefields of the war, and Irbil among the quietest, the exclusion of the three provinces would more likely to lead to an underestimation of the death toll than an exaggeration.'

there is no proof of 1.2 million dead. its pure propaganda.

Iran is said to have lost 1 million during the 8 year war with Iraq. and that was twice as long as the current war and they had almost every male who was able to carry a gun become suicide drones. and WMDs were used to wipe out huge amounts of soldiers on several occasions.

but yet america has killed more this time? no chance.

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

there is no proof of 1.2 million dead. its pure propaganda.

Iran is said to have lost 1 million during the 8 year war with Iraq. and that was twice as long as the current war and they had almost every male who was able to carry a gun become suicide drones. and WMDs were used to wipe out huge amounts of soldiers on several occasions.

but yet america has killed more this time? no chance.

Neither Iran nor Iraq ever had the type of destructive air power that the U.S has in Iraq, and neither country ever invaded the other's cities- so there were never Iranian troops massacring Iraqi's in Baghdad or Tehran like we've seen happen in Iraq over the past 4 1/2 years. They mostly fought tank battles out in the desert separating the two countries.

Still, whatever gets you through the day.

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

there is no proof of 1.2 million dead. its pure propaganda.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep2007/orb-s15.shtml
'Opinion Research Business is not a left-wing or antiwar group, but an established polling organization, founded in 1994 by Gordon Heald, who headed Gallup Britain from 1980 to 1994. Its customers include the huge mining concern Anglo American, the Bank of Scotland, and the Conservative Party. Its non-executive director is Geoffrey Martin OBE, currently special adviser to the secretary general on strategic relationships of the British Commonwealth.'

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Depleted uranium is going to linger in the region causing sub sequent death and birth defects for a few more billion years, so 1.2 mill could very well be a rather low estimate. The effects of this are already being seen.

I suppose it all depends how soon a cure for cancer is found and made available. Indigenous wildlife is probably another thing.

callen

Iraq seems to be more stable than a year ago..and that's a good thing. I had the pleasure of speaking to my brother in law who's been in Iraq last 4 years..and he confirmed it is much better. This may feel good for those that supported Bush and his policies. BUT lest not forget the reason Dubya and boys tricked many into wanting to go to war in Iraq...WMD's. Imminent threat to the US. Nucluer weapons capability, ties to Al Quida etc etc..they were all wrong...and they knew they were all wrong. Well that's why we went into Iraq, not to build a nation.....hell so if this is okay guess we should send out troops to Africa...to help build nation states there??? Its all a farce under false pretenses..so yea you can relish this time..and even if Iraq turns out okay, which I hope it does, it never takes away the fact an administration tricked half its citizens into sacrificing hundreds of thousands of humans and spending trillions of dollars...your dollars.

......spent Christmas in Fort Hood Texas....so many neighborhood kids without their dads and moms

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep2007/orb-s15.shtml
'Opinion Research Business is not a left-wing or antiwar group, but an established polling organization, founded in 1994 by Gordon Heald, who headed Gallup Britain from 1980 to 1994. Its customers include the huge mining concern Anglo American, the Bank of Scotland, and the Conservative Party. Its non-executive director is Geoffrey Martin OBE, currently special adviser to the secretary general on strategic relationships of the British Commonwealth.'

, released the findings of a survey of 1,461 adults across the country.

whatever gets you through the day :rolleyes:

Commy

callen wrote:

Iraq seems to be more stable than a year ago..and that's a good thing. I had the pleasure of speaking to my brother in law who's been in Iraq last 4 years..and he confirmed it is much better.

The US is finally doing almost as good as Saddam in runnin Iraq? Wow, great accomplishment.


Seems the idea that the US has invaded and occupied a foreign country has escaped most people's minds.

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

, released the findings of a survey of 1,461 adults across the country.

whatever gets you through the day :rolleyes:

So you're an expert on these types of statistical surveys are you? Surveys that are used and trusted across the world in all kinds of professional disciplines?

I've provided the link to this article twice before. And Once again I expect you to ignore it and stick your head back in the sand.

http://medialens.org/alerts/06/061031_lancet_co_author.php

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

, released the findings of a survey of 1,461 adults across the country.

'The ORB survey was based on face-to-face interviews conducted between August 12 and August 19 among a nationally representative sample of 1,720 adults (of whom 1,461 responded), with a standard margin of error of 2.4 percent. Random sampling was used to select those interviewed in 15 of Iraq’s 18 provinces.'

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

'The ORB survey was based on face-to-face interviews conducted between August 12 and August 19 among a nationally representative sample of 1,720 adults (of whom 1,461 responded), with a standard margin of error of 2.4 percent. Random sampling was used to select those interviewed in 15 of Iraq’s 18 provinces.'

sorry I'm not buying it. show me 1,200,000 million bodies and I'll believe you. and I like how they reference Rwanda. you know how the got the the 800,000 number? dead bodies littering the street for miles around.

if this survey had said 5,000,000 were dead you'd believe only because it fits your agenda.

and of these so called 1.2 million dead, how many were at the hands of Iraqis killing Iraqis and el queda suicide bombers? hmmmm

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

sorry I'm not buying it. show me 1,200,000 million bodies and I'll believe you. and I like how they reference Rwanda. you know how the got the the 800,000 number? dead bodies littering the street for miles around.

if this survey had said 5,000,000 were dead you'd believe only because it fits your agenda.

and of these so called 1.2 million dead, how many were at the hands of Iraqis killing Iraqis and el queda suicide bombers? hmmmm

You didn't read the article I posted a link to where the head of the survey answers all of the points you've raised.
You're an ignoramus.

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

You didn't read the article I posted a link to where the head of the survey answers all of the points you've raised.
You're an ignoramus.

I did read the article. they don't answer the questions. they just give his opinion. which I happen to disagree with.

more personal attacks. keep em comin

jlew24asu

there are several other sources that account for deaths in Iraq. they use much more in-depth analysis such as this site http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

they have it near 85,000, still horrible but how can it be so far off your made up number of 1,200,000. based on a survey of 1500 households. 1500. that maybe .001% of the population?

you only like that number cuz its fits your agenda. you would believe 10,000,000

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

there are several other sources that account for deaths in Iraq. they use much more in-depth analysis such as this site http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

they have it near 85,000, still horrible but how can it be so far off your made up number of 1,200,000. based on a survey of 1500 households. 1500. that maybe .001% of the population?

you only like that number cuz its fits your agenda. you would believe 10,000,000

Iraq body count bases it's findings solely on those deaths reported by two media outlets.
And you think it's accurate?

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

Iraq body count bases it's findings solely on those deaths reported by two media outlets.
And you think it's accurate?

fuck dude, do some fucking research. regardless IF it were just 2, it would be more accurate then a survey of 1500-1700 random households of a country of millions.


http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/reference/sources/

AAP Australian Associated Press
ABC ABC News (US)
ABC[AU] Australian Broadcasting Corporation
ACLU American Civil Liberties Union
ADT (Australian) Daily Telegraph
AFP Agence France-Presse
AFR Australian Financial Review
AFX AFX News
AI Amnesty International
AKI ADN Kronos International
Al-Adalah Al-Adalah
Al-Alam TV Al-Alam TV
Al-Arab Al Arabiya TV
Al-Bawaba Al-Bawaba
Al-Bayan Al-Bayan
Al-Bayy Al-Bayyinah
Al-Furat Al-Furat
Al-Iraq Al-Iraq
Al-Istiq Al-Istiqamah
Al-Ittihad Al-Ittihad
Al-Jaz Al Jazeera (Web)
Al-Jaz TV Al Jazeera TV
Al-Mada Al-Mada
Al-Manarah Al-Manarah
Al-Mashriq Al-Mashriq
Al-Muwatin Al-Muwatin
Al-Shar Al Sharqiyah TV
Al-Sum Alsumaria
ALT Alternet
Al-Taakhi Al-Taakhi
Al-Zaman Al-Zaman
AN Arab News
ANSA ANSA News Agency
AP Associated Press
Arab N Arab News
Arabic N Arabic News
ASB As-Sabah
Asharq Al A Asharq Al Awsat
AT Arab Times
Atl JC Atlanta Journal-Constitution
AUS The Australian
Azzaman Azzaman
BaltSun The Baltimore Sun
BBC BBC
B-berg Bloomberg
BG Boston Globe
Bill Gaz Billings Gazette
BNA Bahrain News Agency
BT Bahrain Times
CBC Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
CBS CBS
CCT Contra Costa Times
CD China Daily
CentCom Central Command
CNA Channel News Asia
CNN Cable News Network
CO Commondreams.org
COX Cox News Service
CP Counterpunch.org
CPC Charleston Post and Courier
CSM Christian Science Monitor
CT Chicago Tribune
CTV CTV.ca
Dar al-Salam Dar al-Salam
DM Daily Mirror (UK)
DPA Deutsche Presse-Agentur
DT(AU) Daily Telegraph (Australia)
eTN eTaiwan News
EXP Expatica (NL)
FNA FOCUS News Agency
Forbes Forbes
Fox Fox News
FT Financial Times
G and M Globe and Mail
GCN Gay City News
GDN Gulf Daily News
GN Gulf News
GSO GlobalSecurity.org
GUA The Guardian
Hi Pak Hi Pakistan
HRW Human Rights Watch
HT Hindustan Times
IE Indian Express
IER Irish Examiner
IFJ International Federation of Journalists
IHT International Herald Tribune
IMN Iraq MediaNet
IND The Independent
INNA Iraqi National News Agency
IOL Independent Online
IOL[SA] Independent Online (South Africa)
IRE Ireland Online
IRIN UN Integrated Regional Information Networks
ISN International Relations and Security Network
ITN Independent Television News (UK)
J Today Japan Today
Jang The Jang News
JaT Japan Times
JT Jordan Times
KCS Kansas City Star
KHT Khaleej Times
KM Kurdish Media
KR Knight-Ridder Newspapers
KTVL KTVL
KUNA Kuwaiti News Agency
LAT Los Angeles Times
Le Monde Le Monde
MAG Mines Action Group
McCla McClatchy Newspapers
MENA Middle East News Agency
MEO Middle East Online
MH Miami Herald
MHS Melbourne Herald Sun
MJ Mother Jones
MLine The Media Line
MN Mercury News
MNF Multi-national Force - Iraq
MO Mosul Observer
MSNBC MSNBC
N24[SA] News 24 (South Africa)
NAT Nando Times
News24 News 24
NewsAU News.com.au (Australia)
Newsday Newsday
Newsweek Newsweek
NINA National Iraqi News Agency
NNN Non-Aligned Movement News Network
NPR National Public Radio
NYT New York Times
NZH New Zealand Herald
NZZ Neue Zürcher Zeitung
OBS The Observer
PA Press Association
Pak T Pakistan Times
Pak Trib Pakistan Tribune
PAP Polish Press Agency
PBS Public Broadcasting Service (USA)
PDN Pakistan Daily News
PDT Pakistan Daily Times
Pen Peninsular, Qatar
PI Philadelphia Inquirer
Prav Pravda
QNA Qatar News Agency
REU Reuters
RFE Radio Free Europe
RFE/RL Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
RLW ReliefWeb
RSF Reporters Without Borders
RTE Radio Telefís Éireann
RWB Reporters Without Borders
S & S Stars and Stripes
Scot The Scotsman
SDU-T San Diego Union-Tribune
Sea T Seattle Times
SFC San Francisco Chronicle
Sky News Sky News
S-L The Star-Ledger
SMan Statesman
SMH Sydney Morning Herald
SNA Sophia News Agency
SPA Saudi Press Agency
ST Sunday Times (London)
St Pet St. Petersburg Times
ST[AU] Sunday Times (Australia)
T. al-Sha'ab Tariq al-Sha'ab (newspaper)
TA The Age
TASS TASS News Agency
TDN Turkish Daily News
TEL The Telegraph
TIME TIME Magazine
Times The Times (London)
TNI The News International (Pakistan)
TOI Times of India
Trib I Tribune India
TS Toronto Star
TTI The Telegraph (India)
UN United Nations
UO Utusan Online
UPI United Press International
US Fed N US Federal News Service
USA-T USA Today
VOA Voice of America
VOI Voices of Iraq
WP Washington Post
WT Washington Times
WV Warsaw Voice
XIN Xinhua News Agency
ZAM Zaman Online
Zmag Zmag.org

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

sorry I'm not buying it. show me 1,200,000 million bodies and I'll believe you. and I like how they reference Rwanda. you know how the got the the 800,000 number? dead bodies littering the street for miles around.

'3. Why is it so hard for people to believe the Lancet report?
I am an Iraqi and can assure you that the figure given is nearer to the truth than any given before or since.
S Kazwini, London, UK

LR: I think it is hard to accept these results for a couple of reasons. People do not see the bodies. While in the UK there are well over 1000 deaths a day, they do not see the bodies there either. Secondly, people feel that all those government officials and all those reporters must be detecting a big portion of the deaths. When in actuality during times of war, it is rare for even 20% to be detected. Finally, there has been so much media attention given to the surveillance-based numbers put out by the coalition forces, the Iraqi Government and a couple of corroborating groups, that a population-based number is a dramatic contrast...

Of any high profile scientific report in recent history, ours might be the easiest to verify. If we are correct, in the morgues and graveyards of Iraq, most deaths during the occupation would have been due to violence. If Mr. Bush's "30,000 more or less" figure from last December is correct, less than 1 in 10 deaths has been from violence. Let us address the discomfort of Mr. Moore and millions of other Americans, not by uninformed speculation about epidemiological techniques, but by having the press travel the country and tell us how people are dying in Iraq.'

jlew24asu wrote:

and of these so called 1.2 million dead, how many were at the hands of Iraqis killing Iraqis and el queda suicide bombers? hmmmm

February 2006 - article referring to the survey conducted in 2005.

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2006/davies0206.html
'After excluding any possible statistical anomalies, they estimated that at least 98,000 Iraqi civilians had died in the previous 18 months as a direct result of the invasion and occupation of their country. They also found that violence had become the leading cause of death in Iraq during that period. Their most significant finding was that the vast majority (79 percent) of violent deaths were caused by “coalition” forces using “helicopter gunships, rockets or other forms of aerial weaponry,” and that almost half (48 percent) of these were children, with a median age of 8...

...the Iraqi Health Ministry reports... have confirmed the Johns Hopkins team’s conclusion that aerial attacks by “coalition” forces are the leading cause of civilian deaths. One such report was cited by Nancy Youssef in the Miami Herald of September 25, 2004 under the headline “U.S. Attacks, Not Insurgents, Blamed for Most Iraqi Deaths.” The Health Ministry had been reporting civilian casualty figures based on reports from hospitals, as Blair said, but it was not until June 2004 that it began to differentiate between casualties inflicted by “coalition” forces and those from other causes. From June 10 to September 10 it counted 1,295 civilians killed by U.S. forces and their allies and 516 killed in “terrorist” operations. Health Ministry officials told Youssef that the “statistics captured only part of the death toll,” and emphasized that aerial bombardment was largely responsible for the higher numbers of deaths caused by the “coalition.” The breakdown (72 percent U.S.) is remarkably close to that attributed to aerial bombardment in the Lancet survey (79 percent).

BBC World Affairs editor John Simpson, in another Health Ministry report covering July 1, 2004 to January 1, 2005, cited 2,041 civilians killed by U.S. and allied forces versus 1,233 by “insurgents” (only 62 percent U.S.). Then something strange happened. The Iraqi Health Minister’s office contacted the BBC and claimed, in a convoluted and confusing statement, that their figures had somehow been misrepresented. The BBC issued a retraction and details of deaths caused by “coalition” forces have been notably absent from subsequent Health Ministry reports.

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

fuck dude, do some fucking research. regardless IF it were just 2, it would be more accurate then a survey of 1500-1700 random households of a country of millions.


http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/reference/sources/

AAP Australian Associated Press
ABC ABC News (US)
ABC[AU] Australian Broadcasting Corporation
ACLU American Civil Liberties Union
ADT (Australian) Daily Telegraph
AFP Agence France-Presse
AFR Australian Financial Review
AFX AFX News
AI Amnesty International
AKI ADN Kronos International
Al-Adalah Al-Adalah
Al-Alam TV Al-Alam TV
Al-Arab Al Arabiya TV
Al-Bawaba Al-Bawaba
Al-Bayan Al-Bayan
Al-Bayy Al-Bayyinah
Al-Furat Al-Furat
Al-Iraq Al-Iraq
Al-Istiq Al-Istiqamah
Al-Ittihad Al-Ittihad
Al-Jaz Al Jazeera (Web)
Al-Jaz TV Al Jazeera TV
Al-Mada Al-Mada
Al-Manarah Al-Manarah
Al-Mashriq Al-Mashriq
Al-Muwatin Al-Muwatin
Al-Shar Al Sharqiyah TV
Al-Sum Alsumaria
ALT Alternet
Al-Taakhi Al-Taakhi
Al-Zaman Al-Zaman
AN Arab News
ANSA ANSA News Agency
AP Associated Press
Arab N Arab News
Arabic N Arabic News
ASB As-Sabah
Asharq Al A Asharq Al Awsat
AT Arab Times
Atl JC Atlanta Journal-Constitution
AUS The Australian
Azzaman Azzaman
BaltSun The Baltimore Sun
BBC BBC
B-berg Bloomberg
BG Boston Globe
Bill Gaz Billings Gazette
BNA Bahrain News Agency
BT Bahrain Times
CBC Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
CBS CBS
CCT Contra Costa Times
CD China Daily
CentCom Central Command
CNA Channel News Asia
CNN Cable News Network
CO Commondreams.org
COX Cox News Service
CP Counterpunch.org
CPC Charleston Post and Courier
CSM Christian Science Monitor
CT Chicago Tribune
CTV CTV.ca
Dar al-Salam Dar al-Salam
DM Daily Mirror (UK)
DPA Deutsche Presse-Agentur
DT(AU) Daily Telegraph (Australia)
eTN eTaiwan News
EXP Expatica (NL)
FNA FOCUS News Agency
Forbes Forbes
Fox Fox News
FT Financial Times
G and M Globe and Mail
GCN Gay City News
GDN Gulf Daily News
GN Gulf News
GSO GlobalSecurity.org
GUA The Guardian
Hi Pak Hi Pakistan
HRW Human Rights Watch
HT Hindustan Times
IE Indian Express
IER Irish Examiner
IFJ International Federation of Journalists
IHT International Herald Tribune
IMN Iraq MediaNet
IND The Independent
INNA Iraqi National News Agency
IOL Independent Online
IOL[SA] Independent Online (South Africa)
IRE Ireland Online
IRIN UN Integrated Regional Information Networks
ISN International Relations and Security Network
ITN Independent Television News (UK)
J Today Japan Today
Jang The Jang News
JaT Japan Times
JT Jordan Times
KCS Kansas City Star
KHT Khaleej Times
KM Kurdish Media
KR Knight-Ridder Newspapers
KTVL KTVL
KUNA Kuwaiti News Agency
LAT Los Angeles Times
Le Monde Le Monde
MAG Mines Action Group
McCla McClatchy Newspapers
MENA Middle East News Agency
MEO Middle East Online
MH Miami Herald
MHS Melbourne Herald Sun
MJ Mother Jones
MLine The Media Line
MN Mercury News
MNF Multi-national Force - Iraq
MO Mosul Observer
MSNBC MSNBC
N24[SA] News 24 (South Africa)
NAT Nando Times
News24 News 24
NewsAU News.com.au (Australia)
Newsday Newsday
Newsweek Newsweek
NINA National Iraqi News Agency
NNN Non-Aligned Movement News Network
NPR National Public Radio
NYT New York Times
NZH New Zealand Herald
NZZ Neue Zürcher Zeitung
OBS The Observer
PA Press Association
Pak T Pakistan Times
Pak Trib Pakistan Tribune
PAP Polish Press Agency
PBS Public Broadcasting Service (USA)
PDN Pakistan Daily News
PDT Pakistan Daily Times
Pen Peninsular, Qatar
PI Philadelphia Inquirer
Prav Pravda
QNA Qatar News Agency
REU Reuters
RFE Radio Free Europe
RFE/RL Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
RLW ReliefWeb
RSF Reporters Without Borders
RTE Radio Telefís Éireann
RWB Reporters Without Borders
S & S Stars and Stripes
Scot The Scotsman
SDU-T San Diego Union-Tribune
Sea T Seattle Times
SFC San Francisco Chronicle
Sky News Sky News
S-L The Star-Ledger
SMan Statesman
SMH Sydney Morning Herald
SNA Sophia News Agency
SPA Saudi Press Agency
ST Sunday Times (London)
St Pet St. Petersburg Times
ST[AU] Sunday Times (Australia)
T. al-Sha'ab Tariq al-Sha'ab (newspaper)
TA The Age
TASS TASS News Agency
TDN Turkish Daily News
TEL The Telegraph
TIME TIME Magazine
Times The Times (London)
TNI The News International (Pakistan)
TOI Times of India
Trib I Tribune India
TS Toronto Star
TTI The Telegraph (India)
UN United Nations
UO Utusan Online
UPI United Press International
US Fed N US Federal News Service
USA-T USA Today
VOA Voice of America
VOI Voices of Iraq
WP Washington Post
WT Washington Times
WV Warsaw Voice
XIN Xinhua News Agency
ZAM Zaman Online
Zmag Zmag.org

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2006/davies0206.html
'The figures most often cited for civilian casualties in Iraq are those collected by Iraqbodycount, but its figures are not intended as an estimate of total casualties. Its methodology is to count only those deaths that are reported by at least two “reputable” international media outlets in order to generate a minimum number that is more or less indisputable. Its authors know that thousands of deaths go unreported in their count and say they cannot prevent the media misrepresenting their figures as an actual estimate of deaths'

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2006/davies0206.html
'The figures most often cited for civilian casualties in Iraq are those collected by Iraqbodycount, but its figures are not intended as an estimate of total casualties. Its methodology is to count only those deaths that are reported by at least two “reputable” international media outlets in order to generate a minimum number that is more or less indisputable. Its authors know that thousands of deaths go unreported in their count and say they cannot prevent the media misrepresenting their figures as an actual estimate of deaths'

so instead of believing the site itself you believe some random guy? I'm going to go with the site.