if the war is so worth fighting, why haven't you enlisted to help the effort? occupation in iraq not worth dying for? not worth a few months away from your job for?
What's bullshit is all the people who deny that for the first time in 35 years, there is actually hope and the true possibility for a better future in Iraq. That trumps by far all the Abu Grhaib, Guantanamo, blood for oil, false war whinning.
Ya'll are so hung up on the US being there in the first place that you cannot contemplate that Iraq may actually turn out okay.
Don't listen to the media. Don't listen to the Bush admin. Read history and use common sense.
Iraq is not going to turn around in a year, five years, ten years - and it never was. It can be lost in that amount of time, and almost has been. But it will take generational turnover to see true, lasting results in Iraq. We're going to be there until that happens, so get ready.
The fact that so many actually hope the US loses to prove their point or to feel vindicated about false intelegence makes me sick. What a bunch of hypocrite assholes, who want to talk about Bush killing innocents and being a war-monger or not caring about the plight of Iraqi's - when people bash what the US is trying to accomplish there because they didn't agree with it to start with.
Your arguements are null and void at this point. It's like a surgeon who decides to walk away from a heart transplant after it's underway, because he lied to the patient and told him he needed a new heart, when he really didn't.
What's bullshit is all the people who deny that for the first time in 35 years, there is actually hope and the true possibility for a better future in Iraq. That trumps by far all the Abu Grhaib, Guantanamo, blood for oil, false war whinning.
Ya'll are so hung up on the US being there in the first place that you cannot contemplate that Iraq may actually turn out okay.
Don't listen to the media. Don't listen to the Bush admin. Read history and use common sense.
Iraq is not going to turn around in a year, five years, ten years - and it never was. It can be lost in that amount of time, and almost has been. But it will take generational turnover to see true, lasting results in Iraq. We're going to be there until that happens, so get ready.
The fact that so many actually hope the US loses to prove their point or to feel vindicated about false intelegence makes me sick. What a bunch of hypocrite assholes, who want to talk about Bush killing innocents and being a war-monger or not caring about the plight of Iraqi's - when people bash what the US is trying to accomplish there because they didn't agree with it to start with.
Your arguements are null and void at this point. It's like a surgeon who decides to walk away from a heart transplant after it's underway, because he lied to the patient and told him he needed a new heart, when he really didn't.
We're trying to help Iraq damnit!
Aren't you glad you are living in the States and nobody has come bombing your house to change the way you live! I am sure people like you would be all but willing to give up your way of life to have your country bombed and your lifestyle changed. Right? You would understand that and it would be welcomed. :rolleyes: No matter how long that took and how many friends and family had to die for that. Where the fuck do you or anybody else get off on stating not just saying that other countries need to be like yours to function in this world.
What's bullshit is all the people who deny that for the first time in 35 years, there is actually hope and the true possibility for a better future in Iraq. That trumps by far all the Abu Grhaib, Guantanamo, blood for oil, false war whinning.
Ya'll are so hung up on the US being there in the first place that you cannot contemplate that Iraq may actually turn out okay.
Don't listen to the media. Don't listen to the Bush admin. Read history and use common sense.
Iraq is not going to turn around in a year, five years, ten years - and it never was. It can be lost in that amount of time, and almost has been. But it will take generational turnover to see true, lasting results in Iraq. We're going to be there until that happens, so get ready.
The fact that so many actually hope the US loses to prove their point or to feel vindicated about false intelegence makes me sick. What a bunch of hypocrite assholes, who want to talk about Bush killing innocents and being a war-monger or not caring about the plight of Iraqi's - when people bash what the US is trying to accomplish there because they didn't agree with it to start with.
Your arguements are null and void at this point. It's like a surgeon who decides to walk away from a heart transplant after it's underway, because he lied to the patient and told him he needed a new heart, when he really didn't.
We're trying to help Iraq damnit!
...
All you need to do is look at the factual data about Iraq and come to your own conclusion:
During Hussein's reign, the population of Iraq was 20% Sunni, 20% Kurdish and 60% Shi'ite.
Shi'ites are a minority in the Middle East and make up about 10% of all Muslims in the region.
The only Shi'ite majority state in the Middle East is Iran.
During Hussein's reign, Shi'ite pilgrims outside of Iraq were limited to about 300 per year and were booted out. Shi'ites must make one pilgrimage to Najaf, Iraq at least once in their lifetime.
Shi'ites gave the world the Islamic revolution of Ayatollah Khomeni, Hezbollah and Muqtada al Sadr.
...
Now... given the right to choose their leaders... who do you think the 60%+ majority will elect?
Who do you think they will align themselves with in the Middle East region?
As for generational changes... what about the kids whose non-combatant fathers and uncles were tortured in Abu Grhaib for no good reason... are they going to embrace the Americans and simply forgive them? Do you believe this because vengence is not in their nature?
...
Helping Iraq... the majority of Iraqis... means empowering the Shi'ites of the region. A possible and probable outcome is a freely elected Shi'ite fundamentalist bloc with Iran.
...
Is this what you want?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
What's bullshit is all the people who deny that for the first time in 35 years, there is actually hope and the true possibility for a better future in Iraq. That trumps by far all the Abu Grhaib, Guantanamo, blood for oil, false war whinning.
Ya'll are so hung up on the US being there in the first place that you cannot contemplate that Iraq may actually turn out okay.
Don't listen to the media. Don't listen to the Bush admin. Read history and use common sense.
Iraq is not going to turn around in a year, five years, ten years - and it never was. It can be lost in that amount of time, and almost has been. But it will take generational turnover to see true, lasting results in Iraq. We're going to be there until that happens, so get ready.
The fact that so many actually hope the US loses to prove their point or to feel vindicated about false intelegence makes me sick. What a bunch of hypocrite assholes, who want to talk about Bush killing innocents and being a war-monger or not caring about the plight of Iraqi's - when people bash what the US is trying to accomplish there because they didn't agree with it to start with.
Your arguements are null and void at this point. It's like a surgeon who decides to walk away from a heart transplant after it's underway, because he lied to the patient and told him he needed a new heart, when he really didn't.
We're trying to help Iraq damnit!
You do not address all the people that were killed.
What's bullshit is all the people who deny that for the first time in 35 years, there is actually hope and the true possibility for a better future in Iraq. That trumps by far all the Abu Grhaib, Guantanamo, blood for oil, false war whinning.
Ya'll are so hung up on the US being there in the first place that you cannot contemplate that Iraq may actually turn out okay.
Don't listen to the media. Don't listen to the Bush admin. Read history and use common sense.
Iraq is not going to turn around in a year, five years, ten years - and it never was. It can be lost in that amount of time, and almost has been. But it will take generational turnover to see true, lasting results in Iraq. We're going to be there until that happens, so get ready.
The fact that so many actually hope the US loses to prove their point or to feel vindicated about false intelegence makes me sick. What a bunch of hypocrite assholes, who want to talk about Bush killing innocents and being a war-monger or not caring about the plight of Iraqi's - when people bash what the US is trying to accomplish there because they didn't agree with it to start with.
Your arguements are null and void at this point. It's like a surgeon who decides to walk away from a heart transplant after it's underway, because he lied to the patient and told him he needed a new heart, when he really didn't.
We're trying to help Iraq damnit!
Well we need to hurry the job in Iraq then. Just think of all the other nations around the world we need to invade to help them out of their problems. We are in it for that, arent we ?
Aren't you glad you are living in the States and nobody has come bombing your house to change the way you live! I am sure people like you would be all but willing to give up your way of life to have your country bombed and your lifestyle changed. Right? You would understand that and it would be welcomed. :rolleyes: No matter how long that took and how many friends and family had to die for that. Where the fuck do you or anybody else get off on stating not just saying that other countries need to be like yours to function in this world.
oh yeah, 9/11 never fucking happened...who the fuck are you?
oh yeah, 9/11 never fucking happened...who the fuck are you?
...
I think his point is... didn't the September 11, 2001 attacks piss you off? Have you forgotten about it and forgiven the people who are responsible for this?
If you can't forgive and forget... why should the Iraqis that have suffered from our bombing?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Aren't you glad you are living in the States and nobody has come bombing your house to change the way you live! I am sure people like you would be all but willing to give up your way of life to have your country bombed and your lifestyle changed. Right? You would understand that and it would be welcomed. :rolleyes: No matter how long that took and how many friends and family had to die for that. Where the fuck do you or anybody else get off on stating not just saying that other countries need to be like yours to function in this world.
Where do you get off putting words in my mouth? I never said that, nor do I think that other countries should be like mine. Please show me where I stated that.... you have twisted my words evidently.
Where do you get off putting words in my mouth? I never said that, nor do I think that other countries should be like mine. Please show me where I stated that.... you have twisted my words evidently.
...
Your comments about us wanting failure... but, you don't really specify who you want to benefit from making Iraq a "better place". For the U.S? Or the Iraqis?
Happiness for the majority in Iraq may well be a fundamentalist Islamic nation that adhere's to religious law and despises Isreal.
...
I don't want this... to me, it would be a failure. But the reality of the situation is this is a likely outcome. This was a huge mistake on our part... the best we can do is try to mend it as best we can and let them decide. We lose either way... the thing was a losing proposition from the start. The best we can hope for is they they just run off the mouth about destroying Israel and do not morph them into actions.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
All you need to do is look at the factual data about Iraq and come to your own conclusion:
During Hussein's reign, the population of Iraq was 20% Sunni, 20% Kurdish and 60% Shi'ite.
Shi'ites are a minority in the Middle East and make up about 10% of all Muslims in the region.
The only Shi'ite majority state in the Middle East is Iran.
During Hussein's reign, Shi'ite pilgrims outside of Iraq were limited to about 300 per year and were booted out. Shi'ites must make one pilgrimage to Najaf, Iraq at least once in their lifetime.
Shi'ites gave the world the Islamic revolution of Ayatollah Khomeni, Hezbollah and Muqtada al Sadr.
...
Now... given the right to choose their leaders... who do you think the 60%+ majority will elect?
Who do you think they will align themselves with in the Middle East region?
As for generational changes... what about the kids whose non-combatant fathers and uncles were tortured in Abu Grhaib for no good reason... are they going to embrace the Americans and simply forgive them? Do you believe this because vengence is not in their nature?
...
Helping Iraq... the majority of Iraqis... means empowering the Shi'ites of the region. A possible and probable outcome is a freely elected Shi'ite fundamentalist bloc with Iran.
...
Is this what you want?
Absolutely, if that is what it comes down to. Becuase a fundamentalist government, is better than no governement at all at this point.
It's all about creating the instutitions of government first. These institutions can then be used to settle the politics of the country with speeches, votes, an independent press and a judiciary to oversee the whole thing.
Will there be corruption, sure. But at least this way is better than fighting in the streets and assisinating political opponents. It's better than the country being ruled by warlords who use food as a weapon.
Let's face it, once Saddam was gone, all of this would have happened anyways. A civil war has been brewing in Iraq for the last 30 years.
I think the conflict there has not lasted as long as it would have had US soldiers not been involved. I think more lives would have been lost. And I think the country as a whole would be very far behind where it is now.
Absolutely, if that is what it comes down to. Becuase a fundamentalist government, is better than no governement at all at this point.
It's all about creating the instutitions of government first. These institutions can then be used to settle the politics of the country with speeches, votes, an independent press and a judiciary to oversee the whole thing.
Will there be corruption, sure. But at least this way is better than fighting in the streets and assisinating political opponents. It's better than the country being ruled by warlords who use food as a weapon.
Let's face it, once Saddam was gone, all of this would have happened anyways. A civil war has been brewing in Iraq for the last 30 years.
I think the conflict there has not lasted as long as it would have had US soldiers not been involved. I think more lives would have been lost. And I think the country as a whole would be very far behind where it is now.
..
The problem, as I see it... we now own whatever happens over there. I want them to be peaceful and I want them to be friendly towards us... but, their track record says they will be more like Iran. And you are right... those guys would have fought if Saddam died in power... and they are going to fight when we leave.. even if it's 50 years from now.
As for spreading Democracy in Middle Eastern countries... look at Hamas winning in a free election... and the last place we want to see democracy is Saudi Arabia. Those fuckers would elect Usama bin Laden.
The best way for them to change is for THEM to get involved in change. If they wanted Democracy.. they should have revolted and sought our help. Now... anything that goes wrong in Iraq will be America's fault. Even 50 years from now. We bought the damn thing... and it is turning out to be a bottomless money pit that takes lives as well as money.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Absolutely, if that is what it comes down to. Becuase a fundamentalist government, is better than no governement at all at this point.
It's all about creating the instutitions of government first. These institutions can then be used to settle the politics of the country with speeches, votes, an independent press and a judiciary to oversee the whole thing.
Will there be corruption, sure. But at least this way is better than fighting in the streets and assisinating political opponents. It's better than the country being ruled by warlords who use food as a weapon.
Let's face it, once Saddam was gone, all of this would have happened anyways. A civil war has been brewing in Iraq for the last 30 years.
I think the conflict there has not lasted as long as it would have had US soldiers not been involved. I think more lives would have been lost. And I think the country as a whole would be very far behind where it is now.
granted the epic number of dead and injured had little political value... Is that why this minor setback to this brilliant political move is inconsequential to you?
...
I think his point is... didn't the September 11, 2001 attacks piss you off? Have you forgotten about it and forgiven the people who are responsible for this?
If you can't forgive and forget... why should the Iraqis that have suffered from our bombing?
Where do you get off putting words in my mouth? I never said that, nor do I think that other countries should be like mine. Please show me where I stated that.... you have twisted my words evidently.
I'm sorry. I thought that when you posted stories and links that you actually believed them to be true not just to get a rise out of people. Carry on believing that there is no harm in dropping bombs for the last three years that can be surely undone with the stroke of a pen and a new constitution. And the new found capitalism that surely puts smiles on the chap who wrote that piece you posted earlier in this thread.
The only thing that guy missed was thanking god that 911 happened so you had an excuse to go deep into the middle east and meddle a little more with the population.
if the war is so worth fighting, why haven't you enlisted to help the effort? occupation in iraq not worth dying for? not worth a few months away from your job for?
...
"FORT KNOX, Ky. (Army News Service, June 22, 2006) – The Army has raised the enlistment age to 42, made possible under provisions of the Fiscal Year 2006 National Defense Authorization Act."
ref. ( http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/read.php?story_id_key=9197 )
...
Is it still the age thing keeping you out?
...
or that pesky, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell' clause?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
"FORT KNOX, Ky. (Army News Service, June 22, 2006) – The Army has raised the enlistment age to 42, made possible under provisions of the Fiscal Year 2006 National Defense Authorization Act."
ref. ( http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/read.php?story_id_key=9197 )
...
Is it still the age thing keeping you out?
...
or that pesky, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell' clause?
A suicide bomber has killed 13 Iraqis in an attack on a recruiting centre for local Sunni militias in Diyala province, north of the capital Baghdad.
At least 10 people were also injured in the attack.
The bombing took place in the town of Qanan, 20km south of Diyala province's main city, Baquba.
Local militias manned by Sunni Arab Iraqis, backed and armed by the US military, have been taking on al-Qaeda in Iraq in many areas of the country.
The militias, generally grouped as a movement known as the Sunni tribal Awakening, are credited with pushing back al-Qaeda in areas that they had been operating with relative freedom.
..
The problem, as I see it... we now own whatever happens over there. I want them to be peaceful and I want them to be friendly towards us... but, their track record says they will be more like Iran. And you are right... those guys would have fought if Saddam died in power... and they are going to fight when we leave.. even if it's 50 years from now.
As for spreading Democracy in Middle Eastern countries... look at Hamas winning in a free election... and the last place we want to see democracy is Saudi Arabia. Those fuckers would elect Usama bin Laden.
The best way for them to change is for THEM to get involved in change. If they wanted Democracy.. they should have revolted and sought our help. Now... anything that goes wrong in Iraq will be America's fault. Even 50 years from now. We bought the damn thing... and it is turning out to be a bottomless money pit that takes lives as well as money.
The fact that the US will "own" whatever happens in Iraq now doesn't seem like a problem to me. I see more potential there, than anything else. I think most people would agree that the US did not go to Iraq to steal their oil and expand our empire. If people feel that way, then fine, so be it...
I think Iraq can do amazing things, and overcome its past. Iraq has a lot of oil money which will bring wealth and opportunity to its people if the money is spent wisely. I think the masses will opt more for an open society, and shun strict religion in the name of progress. We'll see.
But I think alot of people overlook the potential in Iraq. This isn't like Palestine, where everybody is poor and the country survives on the donations of others. This is a large part of the cycle of violence there. Nobody has the resources to rise out of it.
Iraq does have those resources. I think as long as there is relative stablility in that country, it will continue to progress. This is regardless if the congress gets its act together or not. Surely that would help. But I think you will see life for the average Iraqi become far better than it ever was under Saddam and far better than any of their neighboring countries. I'm thinking its another 5 years out or so, but they will eventually get there if we can keep the peace.
The fact that the US will "own" whatever happens in Iraq now doesn't seem like a problem to me. I see more potential there, than anything else. I think most people would agree that the US did not go to Iraq to steal their oil and expand our empire. If people feel that way, then fine, so be it...
I think Iraq can do amazing things, and overcome its past. Iraq has a lot of oil money which will bring wealth and opportunity to its people if the money is spent wisely. I think the masses will opt more for an open society, and shun strict religion in the name of progress. We'll see.
But I think alot of people overlook the potential in Iraq. This isn't like Palestine, where everybody is poor and the country survives on the donations of others. This is a large part of the cycle of violence there. Nobody has the resources to rise out of it.
Iraq does have those resources. I think as long as there is relative stablility in that country, it will continue to progress. This is regardless if the congress gets its act together or not. Surely that would help. But I think you will see life for the average Iraqi become far better than it ever was under Saddam and far better than any of their neighboring countries. I'm thinking its another 5 years out or so, but they will eventually get there if we can keep the peace.
I'm sure you don't mean it that way because you seem like an optimistic kind of guy, but that post came out not that well. Especially the last sentence. This is a country who, after Saddam, suffered an intensive war which spawned from 500 000 to a million deaths (which in a country of 26 million is not insignificant). Most of the time the streets seem (from my far away point of view) not safe enough to even go out buy groceries. So going by, "hold on another 5 years like this guys, and things will surely straighten out" seems a bit cynic.
I'm sure you don't mean it that way because you seem like an optimistic kind of guy, but that post came out not that well. Especially the last sentence. This is a country who, after Saddam, suffered an intensive war which spawned from 500 000 to a million deaths (which in a country of 26 million is not insignificant). Most of the time the streets seem (from my far away point of view) not safe enough to even go out buy groceries. So going by, "hold on another 5 years like this guys, and things will surely straighten out" seems a bit cynic.
I guess it didn't turn out well if you disagree with me. I don't dispute the fact that a lot of people have died, and that is a tragedy.
My point is that if the US had not gone in, this would have happened anyways. And it would have happened on a much larger scale. And it would have taken much longer than the 5 years we have been there for the bloodletting to stop if Iraqi's were left to their own devices.
From that persepective, regardless of Bush and his lies, it has been a good thing for the people of Iraq that the US is there.
Iraq is full of violence today, absolutely. But most people are now starting to get back to the business of living. In many cities, there is a sence of normalcy returning and vilolent crime is at an all time low. There are cities in Iraq where US soldiers haven't even been shot at since the summer.
Oil production is at an all time high in Iraq. Infastructure is being rebuilt. Without the huge cost of security for basic projects (around 20%) of total budget, things can excel at an even faster pace.
Iraq is hardly out of the woods. I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture, beucase I'm sure we all agree that it is hell over there.
My only point is that there is movement in the right direction. The country does have momentum in a progressive direction. It will take years to solidify gains. But yes, I truly believe that Iraq has turned a corner and if they don't look back then I do see things there getting much, much better in the coming years.
Intelligence provided by local Iraqis led the troops to the torture centre
US and Iraqi forces have discovered a "torture complex" in an al-Qaeda safe haven near Muqdadiya in central Diyala province, the US military has said.
Three buildings containing chains on the walls and ceilings, and a metal bed connected to a power supply were found during an operation on 9 December.
Mass graves containing 26 bodies were uncovered nearby, the military said.
Correspondents say Diyala has been the focus of some of the fiercest attacks by insurgents in recent months.
Militants displaced from their former strongholds in Anbar province and parts of Baghdad by the US troops surge are believed to have migrated to the province.
Earlier on Tuesday, a suicide bomber killed 13 people and a US soldier in an attack on a recruiting centre for local Sunni Arab militia groups that have been fighting al-Qaeda-linked militants in Diyala.
The grisly discovery of what the US military called an atrocity site and torture complex north of Muqdadiya was made during a security operation more than two weeks ago, but announced only on Thursday.
"Intelligence provided by Iraqi tips led US troops to a suspected al-Qaeda in Iraq safe haven and operating bases," the US statement said.
"Evidence of murder, torture, and intimidation against local villagers was found throughout the area."
Residents of nearby villages said they had known about the torture complex, but had not told the authorities because they had been afraid of reprisals by the militants.
A local policeman told the Associated Press news agency that he thought the chamber had been in use for about a year.
The troops initially discovered what appeared to be a detention facility, near which they found the bodies of 26 people in "multiple mass graves next to execution sites", the statement said.
"In the same area a torture complex was found, consisting of three detention facilities with one doubling as both a headquarters building and torture facility," it added.
"The buildings contained chains on the walls and ceilings, a bed still hooked up to an electrical system, and several bloodstained items."
Written in white paint on one wall above the bed was a Koranic phrase used to welcome a guest: "All who enter it shall be safe."
The US military commander in northern Iraq, Maj Gen Mark Hertling, said he believed the torture facility had been run by al-Qaeda in Iraq as it was located in one of their strongholds.
Graffiti on the site also mentioned the Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella group that includes al-Qaeda in Iraq and other Sunni Arab insurgents.
After uncovering the site, the troops continued their security sweep of the area and killed 24 suspected militants, Gen Hertling said.
The torture complex was not the first to have been discovered in Iraq. In March, US troops found a similar site in the village of Karma in the western province of Anbar.
They rescued two Iraqis who said they had been spared immediate execution because the militants had wanted to film the killings and their video camera had broken.
I guess it didn't turn out well if you disagree with me. I don't dispute the fact that a lot of people have died, and that is a tragedy.
My point is that if the US had not gone in, this would have happened anyways. And it would have happened on a much larger scale. And it would have taken much longer than the 5 years we have been there for the bloodletting to stop if Iraqi's were left to their own devices.
From that persepective, regardless of Bush and his lies, it has been a good thing for the people of Iraq that the US is there.
Iraq is full of violence today, absolutely. But most people are now starting to get back to the business of living. In many cities, there is a sence of normalcy returning and vilolent crime is at an all time low. There are cities in Iraq where US soldiers haven't even been shot at since the summer.
Oil production is at an all time high in Iraq. Infastructure is being rebuilt. Without the huge cost of security for basic projects (around 20%) of total budget, things can excel at an even faster pace.
Iraq is hardly out of the woods. I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture, beucase I'm sure we all agree that it is hell over there.
My only point is that there is movement in the right direction. The country does have momentum in a progressive direction. It will take years to solidify gains. But yes, I truly believe that Iraq has turned a corner and if they don't look back then I do see things there getting much, much better in the coming years.
Got a link for all this good news?
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
Petraeus has done a good job. i think the improved situation is fantastic news. I don't agree with going in their in the first place, but i'm glad the violence is coming down. The only problem is the iraqi gov't is still pretty much useless, and until that changes the problems will continue.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Comments
too old
oh yeah, by golly gee, i did
edit - you know, i know it's crap - i just don't take too kindly to someone saying i'm sucking dick
Ya'll are so hung up on the US being there in the first place that you cannot contemplate that Iraq may actually turn out okay.
Don't listen to the media. Don't listen to the Bush admin. Read history and use common sense.
Iraq is not going to turn around in a year, five years, ten years - and it never was. It can be lost in that amount of time, and almost has been. But it will take generational turnover to see true, lasting results in Iraq. We're going to be there until that happens, so get ready.
The fact that so many actually hope the US loses to prove their point or to feel vindicated about false intelegence makes me sick. What a bunch of hypocrite assholes, who want to talk about Bush killing innocents and being a war-monger or not caring about the plight of Iraqi's - when people bash what the US is trying to accomplish there because they didn't agree with it to start with.
Your arguements are null and void at this point. It's like a surgeon who decides to walk away from a heart transplant after it's underway, because he lied to the patient and told him he needed a new heart, when he really didn't.
We're trying to help Iraq damnit!
Aren't you glad you are living in the States and nobody has come bombing your house to change the way you live! I am sure people like you would be all but willing to give up your way of life to have your country bombed and your lifestyle changed. Right? You would understand that and it would be welcomed. :rolleyes: No matter how long that took and how many friends and family had to die for that. Where the fuck do you or anybody else get off on stating not just saying that other countries need to be like yours to function in this world.
All you need to do is look at the factual data about Iraq and come to your own conclusion:
During Hussein's reign, the population of Iraq was 20% Sunni, 20% Kurdish and 60% Shi'ite.
Shi'ites are a minority in the Middle East and make up about 10% of all Muslims in the region.
The only Shi'ite majority state in the Middle East is Iran.
During Hussein's reign, Shi'ite pilgrims outside of Iraq were limited to about 300 per year and were booted out. Shi'ites must make one pilgrimage to Najaf, Iraq at least once in their lifetime.
Shi'ites gave the world the Islamic revolution of Ayatollah Khomeni, Hezbollah and Muqtada al Sadr.
...
Now... given the right to choose their leaders... who do you think the 60%+ majority will elect?
Who do you think they will align themselves with in the Middle East region?
As for generational changes... what about the kids whose non-combatant fathers and uncles were tortured in Abu Grhaib for no good reason... are they going to embrace the Americans and simply forgive them? Do you believe this because vengence is not in their nature?
...
Helping Iraq... the majority of Iraqis... means empowering the Shi'ites of the region. A possible and probable outcome is a freely elected Shi'ite fundamentalist bloc with Iran.
...
Is this what you want?
Hail, Hail!!!
You do not address all the people that were killed.
Well we need to hurry the job in Iraq then. Just think of all the other nations around the world we need to invade to help them out of their problems. We are in it for that, arent we ?
oh yeah, 9/11 never fucking happened...who the fuck are you?
I think his point is... didn't the September 11, 2001 attacks piss you off? Have you forgotten about it and forgiven the people who are responsible for this?
If you can't forgive and forget... why should the Iraqis that have suffered from our bombing?
Hail, Hail!!!
Where do you get off putting words in my mouth? I never said that, nor do I think that other countries should be like mine. Please show me where I stated that.... you have twisted my words evidently.
Your comments about us wanting failure... but, you don't really specify who you want to benefit from making Iraq a "better place". For the U.S? Or the Iraqis?
Happiness for the majority in Iraq may well be a fundamentalist Islamic nation that adhere's to religious law and despises Isreal.
...
I don't want this... to me, it would be a failure. But the reality of the situation is this is a likely outcome. This was a huge mistake on our part... the best we can do is try to mend it as best we can and let them decide. We lose either way... the thing was a losing proposition from the start. The best we can hope for is they they just run off the mouth about destroying Israel and do not morph them into actions.
Hail, Hail!!!
Absolutely, if that is what it comes down to. Becuase a fundamentalist government, is better than no governement at all at this point.
It's all about creating the instutitions of government first. These institutions can then be used to settle the politics of the country with speeches, votes, an independent press and a judiciary to oversee the whole thing.
Will there be corruption, sure. But at least this way is better than fighting in the streets and assisinating political opponents. It's better than the country being ruled by warlords who use food as a weapon.
Let's face it, once Saddam was gone, all of this would have happened anyways. A civil war has been brewing in Iraq for the last 30 years.
I think the conflict there has not lasted as long as it would have had US soldiers not been involved. I think more lives would have been lost. And I think the country as a whole would be very far behind where it is now.
The problem, as I see it... we now own whatever happens over there. I want them to be peaceful and I want them to be friendly towards us... but, their track record says they will be more like Iran. And you are right... those guys would have fought if Saddam died in power... and they are going to fight when we leave.. even if it's 50 years from now.
As for spreading Democracy in Middle Eastern countries... look at Hamas winning in a free election... and the last place we want to see democracy is Saudi Arabia. Those fuckers would elect Usama bin Laden.
The best way for them to change is for THEM to get involved in change. If they wanted Democracy.. they should have revolted and sought our help. Now... anything that goes wrong in Iraq will be America's fault. Even 50 years from now. We bought the damn thing... and it is turning out to be a bottomless money pit that takes lives as well as money.
Hail, Hail!!!
granted the epic number of dead and injured had little political value... Is that why this minor setback to this brilliant political move is inconsequential to you?
yes, i sent them all a christmas card
I said bombed your country. Not had a mosquito bite happen!
I'm sorry. I thought that when you posted stories and links that you actually believed them to be true not just to get a rise out of people. Carry on believing that there is no harm in dropping bombs for the last three years that can be surely undone with the stroke of a pen and a new constitution. And the new found capitalism that surely puts smiles on the chap who wrote that piece you posted earlier in this thread.
The only thing that guy missed was thanking god that 911 happened so you had an excuse to go deep into the middle east and meddle a little more with the population.
fuck canada
"FORT KNOX, Ky. (Army News Service, June 22, 2006) – The Army has raised the enlistment age to 42, made possible under provisions of the Fiscal Year 2006 National Defense Authorization Act."
ref. ( http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/read.php?story_id_key=9197 )
...
Is it still the age thing keeping you out?
...
or that pesky, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell' clause?
Hail, Hail!!!
still age...fuck canada...
:rolleyes:
Thursday, 20 December 2007, 10:46 GMT
Iraq bomber strikes Sunni militia
A suicide bomber has killed 13 Iraqis in an attack on a recruiting centre for local Sunni militias in Diyala province, north of the capital Baghdad.
At least 10 people were also injured in the attack.
The bombing took place in the town of Qanan, 20km south of Diyala province's main city, Baquba.
Local militias manned by Sunni Arab Iraqis, backed and armed by the US military, have been taking on al-Qaeda in Iraq in many areas of the country.
The militias, generally grouped as a movement known as the Sunni tribal Awakening, are credited with pushing back al-Qaeda in areas that they had been operating with relative freedom.
The fact that the US will "own" whatever happens in Iraq now doesn't seem like a problem to me. I see more potential there, than anything else. I think most people would agree that the US did not go to Iraq to steal their oil and expand our empire. If people feel that way, then fine, so be it...
I think Iraq can do amazing things, and overcome its past. Iraq has a lot of oil money which will bring wealth and opportunity to its people if the money is spent wisely. I think the masses will opt more for an open society, and shun strict religion in the name of progress. We'll see.
But I think alot of people overlook the potential in Iraq. This isn't like Palestine, where everybody is poor and the country survives on the donations of others. This is a large part of the cycle of violence there. Nobody has the resources to rise out of it.
Iraq does have those resources. I think as long as there is relative stablility in that country, it will continue to progress. This is regardless if the congress gets its act together or not. Surely that would help. But I think you will see life for the average Iraqi become far better than it ever was under Saddam and far better than any of their neighboring countries. I'm thinking its another 5 years out or so, but they will eventually get there if we can keep the peace.
I'm sure you don't mean it that way because you seem like an optimistic kind of guy, but that post came out not that well. Especially the last sentence. This is a country who, after Saddam, suffered an intensive war which spawned from 500 000 to a million deaths (which in a country of 26 million is not insignificant). Most of the time the streets seem (from my far away point of view) not safe enough to even go out buy groceries. So going by, "hold on another 5 years like this guys, and things will surely straighten out" seems a bit cynic.
I guess it didn't turn out well if you disagree with me. I don't dispute the fact that a lot of people have died, and that is a tragedy.
My point is that if the US had not gone in, this would have happened anyways. And it would have happened on a much larger scale. And it would have taken much longer than the 5 years we have been there for the bloodletting to stop if Iraqi's were left to their own devices.
From that persepective, regardless of Bush and his lies, it has been a good thing for the people of Iraq that the US is there.
Iraq is full of violence today, absolutely. But most people are now starting to get back to the business of living. In many cities, there is a sence of normalcy returning and vilolent crime is at an all time low. There are cities in Iraq where US soldiers haven't even been shot at since the summer.
Oil production is at an all time high in Iraq. Infastructure is being rebuilt. Without the huge cost of security for basic projects (around 20%) of total budget, things can excel at an even faster pace.
Iraq is hardly out of the woods. I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture, beucase I'm sure we all agree that it is hell over there.
My only point is that there is movement in the right direction. The country does have momentum in a progressive direction. It will take years to solidify gains. But yes, I truly believe that Iraq has turned a corner and if they don't look back then I do see things there getting much, much better in the coming years.
Meanwhile...
Thursday, 20 December 2007, 22:50 GMT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7154856.stm
Iraq 'torture complex' discovered
Intelligence provided by local Iraqis led the troops to the torture centre
US and Iraqi forces have discovered a "torture complex" in an al-Qaeda safe haven near Muqdadiya in central Diyala province, the US military has said.
Three buildings containing chains on the walls and ceilings, and a metal bed connected to a power supply were found during an operation on 9 December.
Mass graves containing 26 bodies were uncovered nearby, the military said.
Correspondents say Diyala has been the focus of some of the fiercest attacks by insurgents in recent months.
Militants displaced from their former strongholds in Anbar province and parts of Baghdad by the US troops surge are believed to have migrated to the province.
Earlier on Tuesday, a suicide bomber killed 13 people and a US soldier in an attack on a recruiting centre for local Sunni Arab militia groups that have been fighting al-Qaeda-linked militants in Diyala.
The grisly discovery of what the US military called an atrocity site and torture complex north of Muqdadiya was made during a security operation more than two weeks ago, but announced only on Thursday.
"Intelligence provided by Iraqi tips led US troops to a suspected al-Qaeda in Iraq safe haven and operating bases," the US statement said.
"Evidence of murder, torture, and intimidation against local villagers was found throughout the area."
Residents of nearby villages said they had known about the torture complex, but had not told the authorities because they had been afraid of reprisals by the militants.
A local policeman told the Associated Press news agency that he thought the chamber had been in use for about a year.
The troops initially discovered what appeared to be a detention facility, near which they found the bodies of 26 people in "multiple mass graves next to execution sites", the statement said.
"In the same area a torture complex was found, consisting of three detention facilities with one doubling as both a headquarters building and torture facility," it added.
"The buildings contained chains on the walls and ceilings, a bed still hooked up to an electrical system, and several bloodstained items."
Written in white paint on one wall above the bed was a Koranic phrase used to welcome a guest: "All who enter it shall be safe."
The US military commander in northern Iraq, Maj Gen Mark Hertling, said he believed the torture facility had been run by al-Qaeda in Iraq as it was located in one of their strongholds.
Graffiti on the site also mentioned the Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella group that includes al-Qaeda in Iraq and other Sunni Arab insurgents.
After uncovering the site, the troops continued their security sweep of the area and killed 24 suspected militants, Gen Hertling said.
The torture complex was not the first to have been discovered in Iraq. In March, US troops found a similar site in the village of Karma in the western province of Anbar.
They rescued two Iraqis who said they had been spared immediate execution because the militants had wanted to film the killings and their video camera had broken.
Got a link for all this good news?
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
I come on your flag.
The Youtube tags: "Canada" "Katzenjammer" "coming" "Lindsay" "Lohan" "Flag" and "Bush"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAH3AeFy0SY
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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