great post! I agree fully...the whole "they're draining our system" chant evolved from "they're takin' our jobs" chant...
after some thought on the immigration issue, I've come to the conclusion that it's a shame...
it seems that the powers that be want use to focus on something other than:
the war
energy costs
health care costs
tax reform
the loss of manufacturing jobs
the trade deficit with China
and many other real issues...
if people see illegals abusing "the system", then fix the system...
a final thought...hitler had the jews...does the US now have "illegals"...hate tends to cause blindness...which is what the powers that be truly want...
disclaimer: yes, yes...we are not killing "illegals", was simply pointing out how negative focus on another group tends to cloud judgment...
Yep-we have millions and millions and millions of "Americans" abusing the system now, but we want to bitch and moan about the smaller number of immigrants abusing it.
To quote something biblical, do not point out the splinter in your brother's eye while ignoring the plank in your own.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
How many enter each day from foreign countries legally already (both citizens and non)? I'll bet we already have the infrastructure to do this.
i have no idea. We can handle tourists that arrive, well... we even dropped the ball on that one a few years ago. The infrastructure is prob in place, but the process would have to become so simplified to handle the requests of changing citizenship. A quick scan of a passport, imo, is not enough.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Yep-we have millions and millions and millions of "Americans" abusing the system now, but we want to bitch and moan about the smaller number of immigrants abusing it.
To quote something biblical, do not point out the splinter in your brother's eye while ignoring the plank in your own.
The difference is that the services exist for citizens. They don't exist for everyone. And believe me, I do bitch about the number of citizens who are a drain on society and the economy.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
a final thought...hitler had the jews...does the US now have "illegals"...
Haha, wow. The old Hitler card. But this one was especially creative and off-base. The jews were citizens who were singled out because of their religion/culture. The "illegals" are, well, illegal. They aren't legally here. They have broken the law.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Haha, wow. The old Hitler card. But this one was especially creative and off-base. The jews were citizens who were singled out because of their religion/culture. The "illegals" are, well, illegal. They aren't legally here. They have broken the law.
ha ha...
my point went right over your head...no surprise...
anyhoo, I guess you didn't read my entire post...that's cool, keep focusing on them thar illegals abusing the system....
my point went right over your head...no surprise...
anyhoo, I guess you didn't read my entire post...that's cool, keep focusing on them thar illegals abusing the system....
ha ha ha....
I actually agree with most of the rest of your post. Our priorities are wrong, and our system should be fixed. I've always said that. I have spent 2 decades pissed at our own citizens for abusing the system. Now we have people arguing that we should add another 12 million abusers.
I was merely commenting on the silly Hitler analogy, because unfortunately it ultimately killed the cogent points in your post.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I actually agree with most of the rest of your post. Our priorities are wrong, and our system should be fixed. I've always said that. I have spent 2 decades pissed at our own citizens for abusing the system. Now we have people arguing that we should add another 12 million abusers.
I was merely commenting on the silly Hitler analogy, because unfortunately it ultimately killed the cogent points in your post.
fair enough....
I understand it's difficult to look beyond anything to do with hitler and is horrible actions pertaining to the holocaust....
however, my point is this...the illegal issue is being used as a smokescreen to hide other issues...and looking back in history...this sort of thing was done before...point at a weak group of people, tell everyone how bad they are, and proceed to present them negatively...
I understand it's difficult to look beyond anything to do with hitler and is horrible actions pertaining to the holocaust....
however, my point is this...the illegal issue is being used as a smokescreen to hide other issues...and looking back in history...this sort of thing was done before...point at a weak group of people, tell everyone how bad they are, and proceed to present them negatively...
I'm curious, what other issues are you talking about? The OBJECTIVE view is that people in this group are illegally in the US. That is just a fact, and that is a problem for America. It has absolutely nothing to do with race, ethnicity or heritage, etc.
It is all about protecting this country and creating a better way for immigrants to 1) enter this country and 2) assimilate into our American culture.
It's so funny how you are quick to point out that not all Muslims are terrorists, yet anybody that wants to reform immigration is only using it as a "smokescreen" to advance their hidden agendas???
I'm curious, what other issues are you talking about? The OBJECTIVE view is that people in this group are illegally in the US. That is just a fact, and that is a problem for America. It has absolutely nothing to do with race, ethnicity or heritage, etc.
It is all about protecting this country and creating a better way for immigrants to 1) enter this country and 2) assimilate into our American culture.
It's so funny how you are quick to point out that not all Muslims are terrorists, yet anybody that wants to reform immigration is only using it as a "smokescreen" to advance their hidden agendas???
see post 28....
by the way, I did not say : anybody that wants to reform immigration is only using it as a "smokescreen" to advance their hidden agendas
I did say the current powers that be are using this issue as a smokescreen...it just happens that many are not seeing through it....
let me ask, how about granting those here in the US legal status...putting them on the books, getting their tax money, and being done with the issue...? would you be ok with that...?
oh yeah, do you think all Muslims are terrorists...?
I think there a many designated illegals within the U.S. that deserve immediate citizenship and could immediately qualify and pass U.S. citizenship requirements. I would not be opposed to a 6-month grace period which setup centers in post offices, churches, community centers, schools and other community facilities to assist people in filing out an application for citizenship. There could be community mentors assigned to work with these potential citizens and help track their paperwork through the system. I'm of the believe that there are procedures in place to become legalized citizen, yes, the process is long, yet, it must be worth it, or people would not come here illegally and live with the threat of being deported.
The major problems with this Bill for me is:
1. The Bill is loaded with redundant terror and criminal aspects which have been covered under the 9/11 Commission Report on the Patriot Act. The 9/11 Commission Report called for an "immediate" increase protection of American borders, border patrols, electronic surveillance, which was funded under Homeland's appropriations to accomplished to be accomplished over two years ago. After 3 years of approved funding since the 9/11 Commission Report was released in 2004, they don't need to be readdress and refunded the same provisions under another major Act at the additional burden of the taxpayers and States. As the oversight for both the Patriot Act and this Immigration Bill will fall under Homeland Security funding appropriations, the disbursement of funds for the programs would be at the discretion of Homeland Security.
2. This current Bill, leads to nothing more than an amnesty plan because it has too many loopholes. The grace period is 3 to 5 years to establish citizenship Employers have a 5 year grace period while they wait for the government to establish an ID system tied into social security numbers. Both Homeland Security and the State Department has to signoff on any new ID system; any requests for IDs, including passports will have to be signed off by both of these Departments. By time the grace period ends we could have another 1/2 million people within the borders.
3. The Bill makes English as the official language, however, States would find themselves falling short in the educational and social services aspects along with the criminal prosecution and housing area only on a larger "mandated" scale, simply because they will have to rely upon Homeland Security to make funds available. The Bill grants access to higher educational funds, grants and tuition while pending illegal status. Citizenship is granted to any illegal and their family upon joining the armed services.
4. As to the paying back taxes issue, a person has to show that they "earned" income at the level "which" required them to "have to file a return". You can't say just because a person is illegal they owe taxes, the government has to prove they owe taxes. An employer could have paid a person $50,000 but only reported $3,000, no return is required, thus, no back taxes are due. Basically, you talking about agricultural workers and they're pass work is waived under some special rule as migrant workers.
5. At last report there were an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants within the U.S. borders. I'm guessing we already know where most of them are so why not find a way to separate those who want to be citizens from those who don't or do not qualify as such. Even if it means a family member who is a criminal may face deportation. This is not just an hispanic/latino problem, there are other nationalities here illegally and we, at some point have to be able to say, go home and wait for our decision without feeling guilty. There are procedures in place for political refugees so that is not the issue here.
6. I'm not talking diversity because diversity is a good thing. What I'd like to know is has anyone stopped to assess the immediate and long term impact and changes on the political landscape of this country when you dump an additional 8 million potential voters into the mixing pot? The heaviest concentration of most illegals are in TX, CA and FL.
The current Immigration Bill is too costly, too redunant and leaves open the door that we'll be looking at the same issue in another 6/8 years.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
The difference is that the services exist for citizens. They don't exist for everyone. And believe me, I do bitch about the number of citizens who are a drain on society and the economy.
Right, but if one of the biggest reasons to ban immigrants is the drain on the system, then I'm just pointing out that there are bigger issues to that than the immigrants.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I'm curious, what other issues are you talking about? The OBJECTIVE view is that people in this group are illegally in the US. That is just a fact, and that is a problem for America. It has absolutely nothing to do with race, ethnicity or heritage, etc.
Then why can't we just pass a law that makes them legal and makes it simple, quick and painless for anyone to become a citizen who wants to?
Then they wouldn't be illegal anymore.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Then why can't we just pass a law that makes them legal and makes it simple, quick and painless for anyone to become a citizen who wants to?
Then they wouldn't be illegal anymore.
...
Because, seriously... what is it exactly that makes them 'Illegal'?
A: Not in possession of the proper paperwork.
...
So... if they had the right paperwork... all of these people who adamantly hate them being here would suddenly embrace them?
Seriously.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Because, seriously... what is it exactly that makes them 'Illegal'?
A: Not in possession of the proper paperwork.
...
So... if they had the right paperwork... all of these people who adamantly hate them being here would suddenly embrace them?
Seriously.
Exactly. Remove the illegality claims that people are hiding behind, and suddenly you see the truth.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
...
So... if they had the right paperwork... all of these people who adamantly hate them being here would suddenly embrace them?
Seriously.
No, there will always be people that hate them. But at least they'll be able to tell these people to go f--k themselves because they are U.S. citizens.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
...No, there will always be people that hate them. But at least they'll be able to tell these people to go f--k themselves because they are U.S. citizens.
...
This is one of the great misunderstandings of Immigrants in this country. The truth is, many of them DO NOT want to become citizens. They are happy being Mexican and building a life for their families back home... in Mexico.
...
Think of it this way...
The American engineer who goes to work in Saudi Arabia for 5 years. Does he want to become a Saudi Citizen? Does he need to assimilate into Saudi culture?
NO. He sends the money he makes back to the U.S. so his family back home can pay for the house and buy the stuff to make a living in the U.S.... NOT so his family can move to Saudi Arabia. He is in Saudi Arabia because of the work... not the culture. Same goes for many of the Mexican Immigrants here in America.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Yeah - 'cause they won't just turn around and come right back...
So your argument is to not just ignore the criminal behavior, but reward it for fear they'll continue doing it? Since they're going to engage in criminal behavior anyway, let's just not call it criminal behavior, and we'll all be better off. Doesn't really work for me, but if that's the will of the majority I guess I'm along for the ride.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
So your argument is to not just ignore the criminal behavior, but reward it for fear they'll continue doing it? Since they're going to engage in criminal behavior anyway, let's just not call it criminal behavior, and we'll all be better off. Doesn't really work for me, but if that's the will of the majority I guess I'm along for the ride.
for me, my argument is to decriminalized the behavior....allow those who want to work and live in the US to do so and allow them to join us in paying for the services we use...
So your argument is to not just ignore the criminal behavior, but reward it for fear they'll continue doing it? Since they're going to engage in criminal behavior anyway, let's just not call it criminal behavior, and we'll all be better off. Doesn't really work for me, but if that's the will of the majority I guess I'm along for the ride.
Sounds a lot like the argument for legalizing pot, huh?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Sounds a lot like the argument for legalizing pot, huh?
Except the argument for legalizing pot (which I'm in favor of) results in a net cost benefit to me. The war on drugs (and the war on liberties) has had a tremendous cost which goes away with legalization.
Adding 12 million new names to the social services infrastructure does exactly the opposite.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Except the argument for legalizing pot (which I'm in favor of) results in a net cost benefit to me. The war on drugs (and the war on liberties) has had a tremendous cost which goes away with legalization.
Adding 12 million new names to the social services infrastructure does exactly the opposite.
Then you're really more in favor of social services reform (cuts) than you are in opposition to amnesty? Because after all, the drain on the system isn't being caused primarily by immigrants.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Then you're really more in favor of social services reform (cuts) than you are in opposition to amnesty? Because after all, the drain on the system isn't being caused primarily by immigrants.
Absolutely! As I've mentioned, I have no problem with immigration, per se. That's what made us great. My problem is our already overburdened social services. The legal side of immigration has allowed many brilliant and productive people to come here and contribute.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Absolutely! As I've mentioned, I have no problem with immigration, per se. That's what made us great. My problem is our already overburdened social services. The legal side of immigration has allowed many brilliant and productive people to come here and contribute.
...
Here's a thought...
If a guy comes in from Mexico and is treated using County Services... send the Bill to Mexico. If they don't pay... deduct the total of the bill from the Foriegn aid we send over there to line the pockets of Mexican Politicians and payback the County. I mean, what... we give Mexico several hundred million dollars from taxpayers already, right? Think of it as that portion of out foriegn aid to them that aids the people of Mexico... specifically the guy that is treated in the U.S.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Then you're really more in favor of social services reform (cuts) than you are in opposition to amnesty? Because after all, the drain on the system isn't being caused primarily by immigrants.
refugees also add to the social services drain. a refugee receives free housing and income. cut out the 12 million illegals and we can all have free healthcare.
Comments
Yep-we have millions and millions and millions of "Americans" abusing the system now, but we want to bitch and moan about the smaller number of immigrants abusing it.
To quote something biblical, do not point out the splinter in your brother's eye while ignoring the plank in your own.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
i have no idea. We can handle tourists that arrive, well... we even dropped the ball on that one a few years ago. The infrastructure is prob in place, but the process would have to become so simplified to handle the requests of changing citizenship. A quick scan of a passport, imo, is not enough.
The difference is that the services exist for citizens. They don't exist for everyone. And believe me, I do bitch about the number of citizens who are a drain on society and the economy.
Haha, wow. The old Hitler card. But this one was especially creative and off-base. The jews were citizens who were singled out because of their religion/culture. The "illegals" are, well, illegal. They aren't legally here. They have broken the law.
ha ha...
my point went right over your head...no surprise...
anyhoo, I guess you didn't read my entire post...that's cool, keep focusing on them thar illegals abusing the system....
ha ha ha....
I actually agree with most of the rest of your post. Our priorities are wrong, and our system should be fixed. I've always said that. I have spent 2 decades pissed at our own citizens for abusing the system. Now we have people arguing that we should add another 12 million abusers.
I was merely commenting on the silly Hitler analogy, because unfortunately it ultimately killed the cogent points in your post.
fair enough....
I understand it's difficult to look beyond anything to do with hitler and is horrible actions pertaining to the holocaust....
however, my point is this...the illegal issue is being used as a smokescreen to hide other issues...and looking back in history...this sort of thing was done before...point at a weak group of people, tell everyone how bad they are, and proceed to present them negatively...
I'm curious, what other issues are you talking about? The OBJECTIVE view is that people in this group are illegally in the US. That is just a fact, and that is a problem for America. It has absolutely nothing to do with race, ethnicity or heritage, etc.
It is all about protecting this country and creating a better way for immigrants to 1) enter this country and 2) assimilate into our American culture.
It's so funny how you are quick to point out that not all Muslims are terrorists, yet anybody that wants to reform immigration is only using it as a "smokescreen" to advance their hidden agendas???
see post 28....
by the way, I did not say : anybody that wants to reform immigration is only using it as a "smokescreen" to advance their hidden agendas
I did say the current powers that be are using this issue as a smokescreen...it just happens that many are not seeing through it....
let me ask, how about granting those here in the US legal status...putting them on the books, getting their tax money, and being done with the issue...? would you be ok with that...?
oh yeah, do you think all Muslims are terrorists...?
The major problems with this Bill for me is:
1. The Bill is loaded with redundant terror and criminal aspects which have been covered under the 9/11 Commission Report on the Patriot Act. The 9/11 Commission Report called for an "immediate" increase protection of American borders, border patrols, electronic surveillance, which was funded under Homeland's appropriations to accomplished to be accomplished over two years ago. After 3 years of approved funding since the 9/11 Commission Report was released in 2004, they don't need to be readdress and refunded the same provisions under another major Act at the additional burden of the taxpayers and States. As the oversight for both the Patriot Act and this Immigration Bill will fall under Homeland Security funding appropriations, the disbursement of funds for the programs would be at the discretion of Homeland Security.
2. This current Bill, leads to nothing more than an amnesty plan because it has too many loopholes. The grace period is 3 to 5 years to establish citizenship Employers have a 5 year grace period while they wait for the government to establish an ID system tied into social security numbers. Both Homeland Security and the State Department has to signoff on any new ID system; any requests for IDs, including passports will have to be signed off by both of these Departments. By time the grace period ends we could have another 1/2 million people within the borders.
3. The Bill makes English as the official language, however, States would find themselves falling short in the educational and social services aspects along with the criminal prosecution and housing area only on a larger "mandated" scale, simply because they will have to rely upon Homeland Security to make funds available. The Bill grants access to higher educational funds, grants and tuition while pending illegal status. Citizenship is granted to any illegal and their family upon joining the armed services.
4. As to the paying back taxes issue, a person has to show that they "earned" income at the level "which" required them to "have to file a return". You can't say just because a person is illegal they owe taxes, the government has to prove they owe taxes. An employer could have paid a person $50,000 but only reported $3,000, no return is required, thus, no back taxes are due. Basically, you talking about agricultural workers and they're pass work is waived under some special rule as migrant workers.
5. At last report there were an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants within the U.S. borders. I'm guessing we already know where most of them are so why not find a way to separate those who want to be citizens from those who don't or do not qualify as such. Even if it means a family member who is a criminal may face deportation. This is not just an hispanic/latino problem, there are other nationalities here illegally and we, at some point have to be able to say, go home and wait for our decision without feeling guilty. There are procedures in place for political refugees so that is not the issue here.
6. I'm not talking diversity because diversity is a good thing. What I'd like to know is has anyone stopped to assess the immediate and long term impact and changes on the political landscape of this country when you dump an additional 8 million potential voters into the mixing pot? The heaviest concentration of most illegals are in TX, CA and FL.
The current Immigration Bill is too costly, too redunant and leaves open the door that we'll be looking at the same issue in another 6/8 years.
Right, but if one of the biggest reasons to ban immigrants is the drain on the system, then I'm just pointing out that there are bigger issues to that than the immigrants.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Then why can't we just pass a law that makes them legal and makes it simple, quick and painless for anyone to become a citizen who wants to?
Then they wouldn't be illegal anymore.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Because, seriously... what is it exactly that makes them 'Illegal'?
A: Not in possession of the proper paperwork.
...
So... if they had the right paperwork... all of these people who adamantly hate them being here would suddenly embrace them?
Seriously.
Hail, Hail!!!
Exactly. Remove the illegality claims that people are hiding behind, and suddenly you see the truth.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
great question....!!
Yes, which allows people to threaten and exploit them.
No, there will always be people that hate them. But at least they'll be able to tell these people to go f--k themselves because they are U.S. citizens.
As long as there is zero net cost to me, I'm all for it!
This is one of the great misunderstandings of Immigrants in this country. The truth is, many of them DO NOT want to become citizens. They are happy being Mexican and building a life for their families back home... in Mexico.
...
Think of it this way...
The American engineer who goes to work in Saudi Arabia for 5 years. Does he want to become a Saudi Citizen? Does he need to assimilate into Saudi culture?
NO. He sends the money he makes back to the U.S. so his family back home can pay for the house and buy the stuff to make a living in the U.S.... NOT so his family can move to Saudi Arabia. He is in Saudi Arabia because of the work... not the culture. Same goes for many of the Mexican Immigrants here in America.
Hail, Hail!!!
well, packing them up and sending them home ain't going to be free....
Unfortunately, that's true. But I'll choose the one-shot, temporary, relatively low-expense option over the open-ended, recurring, expensive option.
Yeah - 'cause they won't just turn around and come right back...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
So your argument is to not just ignore the criminal behavior, but reward it for fear they'll continue doing it? Since they're going to engage in criminal behavior anyway, let's just not call it criminal behavior, and we'll all be better off. Doesn't really work for me, but if that's the will of the majority I guess I'm along for the ride.
for me, my argument is to decriminalized the behavior....allow those who want to work and live in the US to do so and allow them to join us in paying for the services we use...
Sounds a lot like the argument for legalizing pot, huh?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Except the argument for legalizing pot (which I'm in favor of) results in a net cost benefit to me. The war on drugs (and the war on liberties) has had a tremendous cost which goes away with legalization.
Adding 12 million new names to the social services infrastructure does exactly the opposite.
Then you're really more in favor of social services reform (cuts) than you are in opposition to amnesty? Because after all, the drain on the system isn't being caused primarily by immigrants.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Absolutely! As I've mentioned, I have no problem with immigration, per se. That's what made us great. My problem is our already overburdened social services. The legal side of immigration has allowed many brilliant and productive people to come here and contribute.
Here's a thought...
If a guy comes in from Mexico and is treated using County Services... send the Bill to Mexico. If they don't pay... deduct the total of the bill from the Foriegn aid we send over there to line the pockets of Mexican Politicians and payback the County. I mean, what... we give Mexico several hundred million dollars from taxpayers already, right? Think of it as that portion of out foriegn aid to them that aids the people of Mexico... specifically the guy that is treated in the U.S.
Hail, Hail!!!
refugees also add to the social services drain. a refugee receives free housing and income. cut out the 12 million illegals and we can all have free healthcare.