What do you think about this immigration plan?

blackredyellow

I'm just curious because I haven't really heard one, but what are some of the plans of the people/groups screaming amnesty? Obviously the bill in congress sucks, but I don't see anyone on the anti-amnesty putting together anything to deal with the 12 million illegals in this country. All I hear is fence/border security...

know1

blackredyellow wrote:

I'm just curious because I haven't really heard one, but what are some of the plans of the people/groups screaming amnesty? Obviously the bill in congress sucks, but I don't see anyone on the anti-amnesty putting together anything to deal with the 12 million illegals in this country. All I hear is fence/border security...

If we granted the 12 million citizenship, then we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem anymore.

jeffbr

know1 wrote:

If we granted the 12 million citizenship, then we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem anymore.

I would be more than happy to do that if we eliminated social services from the equation. I would be in favor of open borders and immigration as long as those immigrating knew that there was no notion of a safety net. That way net contributors come here, net leechers stay away. I am not in favor of adding more people to our growing entitlement class. I am in favor of adding unlimited contributors to our growth.

know1

jeffbr wrote:

I would be more than happy to do that if we eliminated social services from the equation. I would be in favor of open borders and immigration as long as those immigrating knew that there was no notion of a safety net. That way net contributors come here, net leechers stay away. I am not in favor of adding more people to our growing entitlement class. I am in favor of adding unlimited contributors to our growth.

The drain on social services and the safety net really has nothing to do with immigration. If that is the core of the issue for most people, then let's deport the much larger number of AMERICANS who are abusing this system rather than the immigrants who, from what I can see, are mostly willing to work hard at jobs that Americans would rather take unemployment NOT to do.

NCfan

know1 wrote:

The drain on social services and the safety net really has nothing to do with immigration. If that is the core of the issue for most people, then let's deport the much larger number of AMERICANS who are abusing this system rather than the immigrants who, from what I can see, are mostly willing to work hard at jobs that Americans would rather take unemployment NOT to do.

It certainly has to do something with it, although it doesn't tell the whole story. Another important aspect of immigration refrom is safety. We need to know who is coming into our country! It is just dumb to have an open border in this day and age!

I'm all in favor of immigrants. I'm no biggot, and am happy to have people come to America from all corners of the globe. But we need to have a system that tracks these immigrants. There are too many government institutions that can be expoited by those that don't pay taxes, drive around without licenses, fill our schools with their children, etc.

We need to bring in more immigrants and help them to assimilate, not keep them as second class citizens becuase they are here illegally.

know1

NCfan wrote:

It certainly has to do something with it, although it doesn't tell the whole story. Another important aspect of immigration refrom is safety. We need to know who is coming into our country! It is just dumb to have an open border in this day and age!

I'm all in favor of immigrants. I'm no biggot, and am happy to have people come to America from all corners of the globe. But we need to have a system that tracks these immigrants. There are too many government institutions that can be expoited by those that don't pay taxes, drive around without licenses, fill our schools with their children, etc.

We need to bring in more immigrants and help them to assimilate, not keep them as second class citizens becuase they are here illegally.

So if we made it fast and easy to enter the country legally and become a citizen, wouldn't we then know a lot more about the people who are entering since they would be forthcoming and willing to sign the papers or whatever they needed to do.

If we welcome all with open arms, they wouldn't be illegal and they wouldn't be sneaking.

inmytree

know1 wrote:

The drain on social services and the safety net really has nothing to do with immigration. If that is the core of the issue for most people, then let's deport the much larger number of AMERICANS who are abusing this system rather than the immigrants who, from what I can see, are mostly willing to work hard at jobs that Americans would rather take unemployment NOT to do.

great post! I agree fully...the whole "they're draining our system" chant evolved from "they're takin' our jobs" chant...

after some thought on the immigration issue, I've come to the conclusion that it's a shame...

it seems that the powers that be want use to focus on something other than:

the war
energy costs
health care costs
tax reform
the loss of manufacturing jobs
the trade deficit with China
and many other real issues...

if people see illegals abusing "the system", then fix the system...

a final thought...hitler had the jews...does the US now have "illegals"...hate tends to cause blindness...which is what the powers that be truly want...

disclaimer: yes, yes...we are not killing "illegals", was simply pointing out how negative focus on another group tends to cloud judgment...

chopitdown

know1 wrote:

So if we made it fast and easy to enter the country legally and become a citizen, wouldn't we then know a lot more about the people who are entering since they would be forthcoming and willing to sign the papers or whatever they needed to do.

If we welcome all with open arms, they wouldn't be illegal and they wouldn't be sneaking.

with the number of immigrants entering the country averaging 700K per year we would have to approve approx 2800 people per day (weekends and holidays excluded). I'd say it's almost impossible to make it fast and easy to enter the country while trying to somewhat protect the citizens already here.

dunkman

White Americans:
What, nothin' better to do?
Why don't you kick yourself out?
You're an immigrant too.

know1

chopitdown wrote:

with the number of immigrants entering the country averaging 700K per year we would have to approve approx 2800 people per day (weekends and holidays excluded). I'd say it's almost impossible to make it fast and easy to enter the country while trying to somewhat protect the citizens already here.

How many enter each day from foreign countries legally already (both citizens and non)? I'll bet we already have the infrastructure to do this.

know1

inmytree wrote:

great post! I agree fully...the whole "they're draining our system" chant evolved from "they're takin' our jobs" chant...

after some thought on the immigration issue, I've come to the conclusion that it's a shame...

it seems that the powers that be want use to focus on something other than:

the war
energy costs
health care costs
tax reform
the loss of manufacturing jobs
the trade deficit with China
and many other real issues...

if people see illegals abusing "the system", then fix the system...

a final thought...hitler had the jews...does the US now have "illegals"...hate tends to cause blindness...which is what the powers that be truly want...

disclaimer: yes, yes...we are not killing "illegals", was simply pointing out how negative focus on another group tends to cloud judgment...

Yep-we have millions and millions and millions of "Americans" abusing the system now, but we want to bitch and moan about the smaller number of immigrants abusing it.

To quote something biblical, do not point out the splinter in your brother's eye while ignoring the plank in your own.

chopitdown

know1 wrote:

How many enter each day from foreign countries legally already (both citizens and non)? I'll bet we already have the infrastructure to do this.

i have no idea. We can handle tourists that arrive, well... we even dropped the ball on that one a few years ago. The infrastructure is prob in place, but the process would have to become so simplified to handle the requests of changing citizenship. A quick scan of a passport, imo, is not enough.

jeffbr

know1 wrote:

Yep-we have millions and millions and millions of "Americans" abusing the system now, but we want to bitch and moan about the smaller number of immigrants abusing it.

To quote something biblical, do not point out the splinter in your brother's eye while ignoring the plank in your own.

The difference is that the services exist for citizens. They don't exist for everyone. And believe me, I do bitch about the number of citizens who are a drain on society and the economy.

jeffbr

inmytree wrote:

a final thought...hitler had the jews...does the US now have "illegals"...

Haha, wow. The old Hitler card. But this one was especially creative and off-base. The jews were citizens who were singled out because of their religion/culture. The "illegals" are, well, illegal. They aren't legally here. They have broken the law.

inmytree

jeffbr wrote:

Haha, wow. The old Hitler card. But this one was especially creative and off-base. The jews were citizens who were singled out because of their religion/culture. The "illegals" are, well, illegal. They aren't legally here. They have broken the law.

ha ha...

my point went right over your head...no surprise...

anyhoo, I guess you didn't read my entire post...that's cool, keep focusing on them thar illegals abusing the system....

ha ha ha....

jeffbr

inmytree wrote:

ha ha...

my point went right over your head...no surprise...

anyhoo, I guess you didn't read my entire post...that's cool, keep focusing on them thar illegals abusing the system....

ha ha ha....

I actually agree with most of the rest of your post. Our priorities are wrong, and our system should be fixed. I've always said that. I have spent 2 decades pissed at our own citizens for abusing the system. Now we have people arguing that we should add another 12 million abusers.

I was merely commenting on the silly Hitler analogy, because unfortunately it ultimately killed the cogent points in your post.

inmytree

jeffbr wrote:

I actually agree with most of the rest of your post. Our priorities are wrong, and our system should be fixed. I've always said that. I have spent 2 decades pissed at our own citizens for abusing the system. Now we have people arguing that we should add another 12 million abusers.

I was merely commenting on the silly Hitler analogy, because unfortunately it ultimately killed the cogent points in your post.

fair enough....

I understand it's difficult to look beyond anything to do with hitler and is horrible actions pertaining to the holocaust....

however, my point is this...the illegal issue is being used as a smokescreen to hide other issues...and looking back in history...this sort of thing was done before...point at a weak group of people, tell everyone how bad they are, and proceed to present them negatively...

NCfan

inmytree wrote:

fair enough....

I understand it's difficult to look beyond anything to do with hitler and is horrible actions pertaining to the holocaust....

however, my point is this...the illegal issue is being used as a smokescreen to hide other issues...and looking back in history...this sort of thing was done before...point at a weak group of people, tell everyone how bad they are, and proceed to present them negatively...

I'm curious, what other issues are you talking about? The OBJECTIVE view is that people in this group are illegally in the US. That is just a fact, and that is a problem for America. It has absolutely nothing to do with race, ethnicity or heritage, etc.

It is all about protecting this country and creating a better way for immigrants to 1) enter this country and 2) assimilate into our American culture.

It's so funny how you are quick to point out that not all Muslims are terrorists, yet anybody that wants to reform immigration is only using it as a "smokescreen" to advance their hidden agendas???

inmytree

NCfan wrote:

I'm curious, what other issues are you talking about? The OBJECTIVE view is that people in this group are illegally in the US. That is just a fact, and that is a problem for America. It has absolutely nothing to do with race, ethnicity or heritage, etc.

It is all about protecting this country and creating a better way for immigrants to 1) enter this country and 2) assimilate into our American culture.

It's so funny how you are quick to point out that not all Muslims are terrorists, yet anybody that wants to reform immigration is only using it as a "smokescreen" to advance their hidden agendas???

see post 28....

by the way, I did not say : anybody that wants to reform immigration is only using it as a "smokescreen" to advance their hidden agendas

I did say the current powers that be are using this issue as a smokescreen...it just happens that many are not seeing through it....

let me ask, how about granting those here in the US legal status...putting them on the books, getting their tax money, and being done with the issue...? would you be ok with that...?

oh yeah, do you think all Muslims are terrorists...?

puremagic

I think there a many designated illegals within the U.S. that deserve immediate citizenship and could immediately qualify and pass U.S. citizenship requirements. I would not be opposed to a 6-month grace period which setup centers in post offices, churches, community centers, schools and other community facilities to assist people in filing out an application for citizenship. There could be community mentors assigned to work with these potential citizens and help track their paperwork through the system. I'm of the believe that there are procedures in place to become legalized citizen, yes, the process is long, yet, it must be worth it, or people would not come here illegally and live with the threat of being deported.

The major problems with this Bill for me is:

1. The Bill is loaded with redundant terror and criminal aspects which have been covered under the 9/11 Commission Report on the Patriot Act. The 9/11 Commission Report called for an "immediate" increase protection of American borders, border patrols, electronic surveillance, which was funded under Homeland's appropriations to accomplished to be accomplished over two years ago. After 3 years of approved funding since the 9/11 Commission Report was released in 2004, they don't need to be readdress and refunded the same provisions under another major Act at the additional burden of the taxpayers and States. As the oversight for both the Patriot Act and this Immigration Bill will fall under Homeland Security funding appropriations, the disbursement of funds for the programs would be at the discretion of Homeland Security.

2. This current Bill, leads to nothing more than an amnesty plan because it has too many loopholes. The grace period is 3 to 5 years to establish citizenship Employers have a 5 year grace period while they wait for the government to establish an ID system tied into social security numbers. Both Homeland Security and the State Department has to signoff on any new ID system; any requests for IDs, including passports will have to be signed off by both of these Departments. By time the grace period ends we could have another 1/2 million people within the borders.

3. The Bill makes English as the official language, however, States would find themselves falling short in the educational and social services aspects along with the criminal prosecution and housing area only on a larger "mandated" scale, simply because they will have to rely upon Homeland Security to make funds available. The Bill grants access to higher educational funds, grants and tuition while pending illegal status. Citizenship is granted to any illegal and their family upon joining the armed services.

4. As to the paying back taxes issue, a person has to show that they "earned" income at the level "which" required them to "have to file a return". You can't say just because a person is illegal they owe taxes, the government has to prove they owe taxes. An employer could have paid a person $50,000 but only reported $3,000, no return is required, thus, no back taxes are due. Basically, you talking about agricultural workers and they're pass work is waived under some special rule as migrant workers.

5. At last report there were an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants within the U.S. borders. I'm guessing we already know where most of them are so why not find a way to separate those who want to be citizens from those who don't or do not qualify as such. Even if it means a family member who is a criminal may face deportation. This is not just an hispanic/latino problem, there are other nationalities here illegally and we, at some point have to be able to say, go home and wait for our decision without feeling guilty. There are procedures in place for political refugees so that is not the issue here.

6. I'm not talking diversity because diversity is a good thing. What I'd like to know is has anyone stopped to assess the immediate and long term impact and changes on the political landscape of this country when you dump an additional 8 million potential voters into the mixing pot? The heaviest concentration of most illegals are in TX, CA and FL.


The current Immigration Bill is too costly, too redunant and leaves open the door that we'll be looking at the same issue in another 6/8 years.