What do you think about this immigration plan?

NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
edited June 2007 in A Moving Train
I like this plan. What do you guys think?

1) secure the southern border with 700, not 300 miles of barrier, double the border patrol and back them up with 10,000 National Guards people.

2) require all illegal aliens in the country right now to register at the post office with Homeland Security. After registering, they would be given a tamper proof ID card, designating their status and their right to work temporarily in the USA. If the illegal aliens do not register, it's a criminal felony subjecting the person to immediate deportation or jail time.

3) Any business that hires an illegal worker who doesn't have a tamper proof ID card faces draconian fines and possible prison time for the executives.

4) Each illegal alien would have his case reviewed by federal authorities. And they would decide who would receive a Z-visa to stay and eventually earn citizenship, and who would not. That takes the blanket amnesty, something many Americans hate, off the table. It also allows the feds to make rational decisions about who's helping America and who isn't. Under that banner, no illegal alien who commits a crime while here would be allowed to stay. Also under that program, no welfare of any kind would be paid to folks here illegally.
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Comments

  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    My plan is to let anyone who wants to come here and work as they please legally. If you're already here, you should just have to register or something very simple and quick.

    Putting up a fence (or any other barriers that are either physical or procedural) just doesn't seem right to me.

    I think businesses should be able to hire whoever they please.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    know1 wrote:
    My plan is to let anyone who wants to come here and work as they please legally. If you're already here, you should just have to register or something very simple and quick.

    Putting up a fence (or any other barriers that are either physical or procedural) just doesn't seem right to me.

    I think businesses should be able to hire whoever they please.

    I would like that too, but it would simply overwhelm our governmental institutions. There has to be limits. Can you imagine the number of people who would come if there were no limits? It would be astronomical!

    I also think businesses whould be able to fire whoever they please as well. And if you remove illegal immigrants, they simply won't be an option anymore.
  • godpt3godpt3 Posts: 1,020
    NCfan wrote:
    I like this plan. What do you guys think?

    1) secure the southern border with 700, not 300 miles of barrier, double the border patrol and back them up with 10,000 National Guards people.

    2) require all illegal aliens in the country right now to register at the post office with Homeland Security. After registering, they would be given a tamper proof ID card, designating their status and their right to work temporarily in the USA. If the illegal aliens do not register, it's a criminal felony subjecting the person to immediate deportation or jail time.

    3) Any business that hires an illegal worker who doesn't have a tamper proof ID card faces draconian fines and possible prison time for the executives.

    4) Each illegal alien would have his case reviewed by federal authorities. And they would decide who would receive a Z-visa to stay and eventually earn citizenship, and who would not. That takes the blanket amnesty, something many Americans hate, off the table. It also allows the feds to make rational decisions about who's helping America and who isn't. Under that banner, no illegal alien who commits a crime while here would be allowed to stay. Also under that program, no welfare of any kind would be paid to folks here illegally.


    anything requiring a fence is destined to fail, unless you cover the ENTIRE border. otherwise, you're just shifting the flow of immigrants to somewhere that isn't as secured.

    there is no such thing as a tamper-proof ID card.

    And think of the enourmous backlog of cases at the immigration office when a couple of million cases have to be individually processed
    "If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
    —Dorothy Parker

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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 30,283
    i have no problem with this plan at all hell something has to be done it's a plan that i believe can be executed as long as people follow procedure .......
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    i have no problem with this plan at all hell something has to be done it's a plan that i believe can be executed as long as people follow procedure .......

    don't we have a problem b/c people haven't followed procedure? Why would they instantly start to? Just playing devils advocate.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    NCfan wrote:
    I like this plan. What do you guys think?

    1) secure the southern border with 700, not 300 miles of barrier, double the border patrol and back them up with 10,000 National Guards people.

    2) require all illegal aliens in the country right now to register at the post office with Homeland Security. After registering, they would be given a tamper proof ID card, designating their status and their right to work temporarily in the USA. If the illegal aliens do not register, it's a criminal felony subjecting the person to immediate deportation or jail time.

    3) Any business that hires an illegal worker who doesn't have a tamper proof ID card faces draconian fines and possible prison time for the executives.

    4) Each illegal alien would have his case reviewed by federal authorities. And they would decide who would receive a Z-visa to stay and eventually earn citizenship, and who would not. That takes the blanket amnesty, something many Americans hate, off the table. It also allows the feds to make rational decisions about who's helping America and who isn't. Under that banner, no illegal alien who commits a crime while here would be allowed to stay. Also under that program, no welfare of any kind would be paid to folks here illegally.

    This is kind of along the lines that I was thinking about yesterday. Here is what I came up with....

    1) Temporarily increase border security with national guard, reserves, whoever for a short period (a couple of months).

    2) During this crackdown, give all illegals a time frame like a month to register (I like your post office idea) for an identification card.

    3) After this month period, ALL employers who hire/pay undocumented workers will be assessed huge fines and possibly prison time.

    4) While you can't turn down emergency health care for anyone, only those workers will verified identification and a documented work/tax paying history would be eligible for other social services.


    After this initial security crackdown and if steps 3-4 are in place, that would do a lot to eliminate the attraction for undocumented workers. If jobs are hard to come by and you can't get welfare or tuition breaks or whatever, then there isn't much benefit to coming here.

    The idea of rounding up 12 million illegal aliens and deporting them would cost billions of dollars and create a HUGE bureaucratic nightmare and take years.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    chopitdown wrote:
    don't we have a problem b/c people haven't followed procedure? Why would they instantly start to? Just playing devils advocate.

    With the bill before congress, I think the same way that you do. The key is to actually enforce the laws on hiring them in the first place... if there aren't the number of easy to get jobs and social services, that will incredibly cut down the draw for them to come here.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 30,283
    chopitdown wrote:
    don't we have a problem b/c people haven't followed procedure? Why would they instantly start to? Just playing devils advocate.

    well as long as the illegal immigrants feel safe to go and register with out getting thrown out of the country it will be a step in the right direction ,as for the border problem well that is a whole other ballgame ,but at least a plan is in place ........i have no solutions just opinions .......:(
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    NCfan wrote:
    I like this plan. What do you guys think?

    1) secure the southern border with 700, not 300 miles of barrier, double the border patrol and back them up with 10,000 National Guards people.

    i like the border patrol increase but not so sure about a fence.
    NCfan wrote:
    2) require all illegal aliens in the country right now to register at the post office with Homeland Security. After registering, they would be given a tamper proof ID card, designating their status and their right to work temporarily in the USA. If the illegal aliens do not register, it's a criminal felony subjecting the person to immediate deportation or jail time.

    i don't think jail time should be an option if they have ignored the chance to register over a period of time.
    NCfan wrote:
    3) Any business that hires an illegal worker who doesn't have a tamper proof ID card faces draconian fines and possible prison time for the executives.

    fine the execs and the people doing the hiring
    NCfan wrote:
    4) Each illegal alien would have his case reviewed by federal authorities. And they would decide who would receive a Z-visa to stay and eventually earn citizenship, and who would not. That takes the blanket amnesty, something many Americans hate, off the table. It also allows the feds to make rational decisions about who's helping America and who isn't. Under that banner, no illegal alien who commits a crime while here would be allowed to stay. Also under that program, no welfare of any kind would be paid to folks here illegally.

    would take a lot of man power and a lot of money. I agree with the welfare stance though. No way should illegal immigrants receive welfare.

    My biggest beef with any of these plans is that it does nothing to reward going through the system to come here legally. Some people are waiting for the correct paperwork and doing it the legal way. The people who are here illegally in essence get bumped to the front of the line. Unless they have to go back to their home country while waiting for number 4 to occur.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    well as long as the illegal immigrants feel safe to go and register with out getting thrown out of the country it will be a step in the right direction ,as for the border problem well that is a whole other ballgame ,but at least a plan is in place ........i have no solutions just opinions .......:(

    see i think the illegal immigrants should fear getting thrown out of the country...why should we (legal citizens in some capacity) have to appease the illegal citizens. I think we need to do something to expedite the approval / rejection process.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    NCfan wrote:
    I like this plan. What do you guys think?

    1) secure the southern border with 700, not 300 miles of barrier, double the border patrol and back them up with 10,000 National Guards people.

    2) require all illegal aliens in the country right now to register at the post office with Homeland Security. After registering, they would be given a tamper proof ID card, designating their status and their right to work temporarily in the USA. If the illegal aliens do not register, it's a criminal felony subjecting the person to immediate deportation or jail time.

    3) Any business that hires an illegal worker who doesn't have a tamper proof ID card faces draconian fines and possible prison time for the executives.

    4) Each illegal alien would have his case reviewed by federal authorities. And they would decide who would receive a Z-visa to stay and eventually earn citizenship, and who would not. That takes the blanket amnesty, something many Americans hate, off the table. It also allows the feds to make rational decisions about who's helping America and who isn't. Under that banner, no illegal alien who commits a crime while here would be allowed to stay. Also under that program, no welfare of any kind would be paid to folks here illegally.

    I would support a plan like that.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    With the bill before congress, I think the same way that you do. The key is to actually enforce the laws on hiring them in the first place... if there aren't the number of easy to get jobs and social services, that will incredibly cut down the draw for them to come here.

    i agree. I think the US is a great nation..and obviously so do the millions of illegal immigrants b/c they wouldn't be here (or they at least feel it's a better opportunity for a better life than their current country. We can't even, as a society, take care of all of the citizens here already...wouldn't we just be making the problem harder by allowing that many more people in? I'm not suggesting closing the borders, but I think that proper procedure is the only way to ensure we financially can handle it.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 30,283
    chopitdown wrote:
    see i think the illegal immigrants should fear getting thrown out of the country...why should we (legal citizens in some capacity) have to appease the illegal citizens. I think we need to do something to expedite the approval / rejection process.
    well then how do we get the immigrants that are here allready to register to become legall ?? i mean that is what the plan is no ?? to get the illegal people to come forward to get their status fixed am i wrong in thinking/understanding this bill ?? ......
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    NCfan wrote:
    I would like that too, but it would simply overwhelm our governmental institutions. There has to be limits. Can you imagine the number of people who would come if there were no limits? It would be astronomical!

    I also think businesses whould be able to fire whoever they please as well. And if you remove illegal immigrants, they simply won't be an option anymore.

    If it would overwhelm our government institutions, then perhaps we should limit how much the government is doing for us.

    If you want to remove immigrants, that's one thing - but penalizing businesses for employing them is another.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    What do you think would happen to the average joe/jill cop that didn't enforce the laws...get fired?

    I say we throw everyone that has been in congress for more than 4 years out on the butts. Cause: Sleeping on the job and creating a extremely difficult situation. Maybe we deport them. ;)

    Moving an illegal ahead of someone waiting in line the right way is absurd and shouldn't happen under any circumstance.
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  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    Just wanted to point out that this is NOT my plan, but for sake of typical MT partisan bullshit I didn't want to post who came up with it - or who endorses it. Thought it would be better to discuss just own its own merrits.

    - A few have posted they are opposed to fences. I agree, fences suck - but they are just necessary. Maybe this will only move the illegals to come through less secure areas without a fence, but at least that way we have man power to monitor these "choke points".

    - I also don't think illegals should have their cases heard before people who are trying to immigrate the correct way. Maybe a part of this plan would be to expand the immigration institution and set a goal of X number of years to get all the illegal cases heard.

    - Also, I think we should bump up the number of legal immigrants we accept per year.

    Why the hell can't congress make something happen on this? It's pathetic!
  • NCfan wrote:
    I like this plan. What do you guys think?

    1) secure the southern border with 700, not 300 miles of barrier, double the border patrol and back them up with 10,000 National Guards people.

    2) require all illegal aliens in the country right now to register at the post office with Homeland Security. After registering, they would be given a tamper proof ID card, designating their status and their right to work temporarily in the USA. If the illegal aliens do not register, it's a criminal felony subjecting the person to immediate deportation or jail time.

    3) Any business that hires an illegal worker who doesn't have a tamper proof ID card faces draconian fines and possible prison time for the executives.

    4) Each illegal alien would have his case reviewed by federal authorities. And they would decide who would receive a Z-visa to stay and eventually earn citizenship, and who would not. That takes the blanket amnesty, something many Americans hate, off the table. It also allows the feds to make rational decisions about who's helping America and who isn't. Under that banner, no illegal alien who commits a crime while here would be allowed to stay. Also under that program, no welfare of any kind would be paid to folks here illegally.



    maybe they should have did that before your grandparents moved there...
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    maybe they should have did that before your grandparents moved there...

    Maybe they should have, who knows. Are you insinuating that I wouldn't be here if they had? That's a pretty immature way to argue against immigration reform don't you think? If you disagree with the plan I started the thread with, then why don't you respond and tell us what you don't like about it? Then maybe we could have a meaningful discussion...
  • godpt3godpt3 Posts: 1,020
    Former Swift workers sentenced for ID fraud
    AMARILLO, Texas (AP)—Eight former workers at the Swift & Co. meatpacking plant in Cactus who pleaded guilty to charges stemming from a massive immigration raid received sentences ranging from six months to about two years, the U.S. Attorney's Office said in a release.

    Seven defendants were sentenced for falsely representing a Social Security number as belonging to them in order to get jobs at Swift. Another was sentenced to 21 months in prison for coming back into the U.S. after being deported. All were sentenced Wednesday in an Amarillo federal court.
    Thirty-one of the 53 people charged in the Northern District of Texas are awaiting sentencing.

    No charges were filed against Swift, which bills itself as the world's second-largest beef and pork processor, in the Dec. 12 raid. Raids also took place at Swift plants in five others states; in all, more than than 1,200 immigrant workers were arrested.
    "If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
    —Dorothy Parker

    http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    NCfan wrote:
    I like this plan. What do you guys think?

    1) secure the southern border with 700, not 300 miles of barrier, double the border patrol and back them up with 10,000 National Guards people.

    2) require all illegal aliens in the country right now to register at the post office with Homeland Security. After registering, they would be given a tamper proof ID card, designating their status and their right to work temporarily in the USA. If the illegal aliens do not register, it's a criminal felony subjecting the person to immediate deportation or jail time.

    3) Any business that hires an illegal worker who doesn't have a tamper proof ID card faces draconian fines and possible prison time for the executives.

    4) Each illegal alien would have his case reviewed by federal authorities. And they would decide who would receive a Z-visa to stay and eventually earn citizenship, and who would not. That takes the blanket amnesty, something many Americans hate, off the table. It also allows the feds to make rational decisions about who's helping America and who isn't. Under that banner, no illegal alien who commits a crime while here would be allowed to stay. Also under that program, no welfare of any kind would be paid to folks here illegally.
    ...
    It's a Start...
    How about these amendments:
    Either extend the 700 mile wall to either 0 or the entire 2,000 miles. 700 miles is a waste of taxes because it leaves 1,300 miles open.
    Also, how long are National Guardsmen deployed to border duty? From which states do the Guardsmen come from... that would have state budget implications. Instead, how about hiring and funding the 10,000 additional boots as Border agents, increase their technical resources, armament and weaponry to military grade and fund them via the Federal Government?
    ..
    Agree with Item 2. Seek a humanitarian approach and treat them as humans first, Mexican Nationals, second. Give the ones who are hard working people a break... and come down hard on the ones commiting crimes, such as theft and robberies.
    ...
    Item 3. Much needed reform. Too long the business owners have gotten away scot free in this whole thing. Time for them to pay up.
    ...
    Item 4. Many Illegals that are here do not want to become American. They are happy being Mexican. They should not be expected to assimilate to our culture or language. Let them work and send the money back to their families back home. Give the track to citizenship to those who seek it... do not tie it to employment.
    ...
    other than that... it works for me.
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  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    I'm just curious because I haven't really heard one, but what are some of the plans of the people/groups screaming amnesty? Obviously the bill in congress sucks, but I don't see anyone on the anti-amnesty putting together anything to deal with the 12 million illegals in this country. All I hear is fence/border security...
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    I'm just curious because I haven't really heard one, but what are some of the plans of the people/groups screaming amnesty? Obviously the bill in congress sucks, but I don't see anyone on the anti-amnesty putting together anything to deal with the 12 million illegals in this country. All I hear is fence/border security...

    If we granted the 12 million citizenship, then we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem anymore.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    know1 wrote:
    If we granted the 12 million citizenship, then we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem anymore.

    I would be more than happy to do that if we eliminated social services from the equation. I would be in favor of open borders and immigration as long as those immigrating knew that there was no notion of a safety net. That way net contributors come here, net leechers stay away. I am not in favor of adding more people to our growing entitlement class. I am in favor of adding unlimited contributors to our growth.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    jeffbr wrote:
    I would be more than happy to do that if we eliminated social services from the equation. I would be in favor of open borders and immigration as long as those immigrating knew that there was no notion of a safety net. That way net contributors come here, net leechers stay away. I am not in favor of adding more people to our growing entitlement class. I am in favor of adding unlimited contributors to our growth.

    The drain on social services and the safety net really has nothing to do with immigration. If that is the core of the issue for most people, then let's deport the much larger number of AMERICANS who are abusing this system rather than the immigrants who, from what I can see, are mostly willing to work hard at jobs that Americans would rather take unemployment NOT to do.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    know1 wrote:
    The drain on social services and the safety net really has nothing to do with immigration. If that is the core of the issue for most people, then let's deport the much larger number of AMERICANS who are abusing this system rather than the immigrants who, from what I can see, are mostly willing to work hard at jobs that Americans would rather take unemployment NOT to do.

    It certainly has to do something with it, although it doesn't tell the whole story. Another important aspect of immigration refrom is safety. We need to know who is coming into our country! It is just dumb to have an open border in this day and age!

    I'm all in favor of immigrants. I'm no biggot, and am happy to have people come to America from all corners of the globe. But we need to have a system that tracks these immigrants. There are too many government institutions that can be expoited by those that don't pay taxes, drive around without licenses, fill our schools with their children, etc.

    We need to bring in more immigrants and help them to assimilate, not keep them as second class citizens becuase they are here illegally.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    NCfan wrote:
    It certainly has to do something with it, although it doesn't tell the whole story. Another important aspect of immigration refrom is safety. We need to know who is coming into our country! It is just dumb to have an open border in this day and age!

    I'm all in favor of immigrants. I'm no biggot, and am happy to have people come to America from all corners of the globe. But we need to have a system that tracks these immigrants. There are too many government institutions that can be expoited by those that don't pay taxes, drive around without licenses, fill our schools with their children, etc.

    We need to bring in more immigrants and help them to assimilate, not keep them as second class citizens becuase they are here illegally.

    So if we made it fast and easy to enter the country legally and become a citizen, wouldn't we then know a lot more about the people who are entering since they would be forthcoming and willing to sign the papers or whatever they needed to do.

    If we welcome all with open arms, they wouldn't be illegal and they wouldn't be sneaking.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    know1 wrote:
    The drain on social services and the safety net really has nothing to do with immigration. If that is the core of the issue for most people, then let's deport the much larger number of AMERICANS who are abusing this system rather than the immigrants who, from what I can see, are mostly willing to work hard at jobs that Americans would rather take unemployment NOT to do.

    great post! I agree fully...the whole "they're draining our system" chant evolved from "they're takin' our jobs" chant...

    after some thought on the immigration issue, I've come to the conclusion that it's a shame...

    it seems that the powers that be want use to focus on something other than:

    the war
    energy costs
    health care costs
    tax reform
    the loss of manufacturing jobs
    the trade deficit with China
    and many other real issues...

    if people see illegals abusing "the system", then fix the system...

    a final thought...hitler had the jews...does the US now have "illegals"...hate tends to cause blindness...which is what the powers that be truly want...

    disclaimer: yes, yes...we are not killing "illegals", was simply pointing out how negative focus on another group tends to cloud judgment...
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    know1 wrote:
    So if we made it fast and easy to enter the country legally and become a citizen, wouldn't we then know a lot more about the people who are entering since they would be forthcoming and willing to sign the papers or whatever they needed to do.

    If we welcome all with open arms, they wouldn't be illegal and they wouldn't be sneaking.


    with the number of immigrants entering the country averaging 700K per year we would have to approve approx 2800 people per day (weekends and holidays excluded). I'd say it's almost impossible to make it fast and easy to enter the country while trying to somewhat protect the citizens already here.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    White Americans:
    What, nothin' better to do?
    Why don't you kick yourself out?
    You're an immigrant too.
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    chopitdown wrote:
    with the number of immigrants entering the country averaging 700K per year we would have to approve approx 2800 people per day (weekends and holidays excluded). I'd say it's almost impossible to make it fast and easy to enter the country while trying to somewhat protect the citizens already here.

    How many enter each day from foreign countries legally already (both citizens and non)? I'll bet we already have the infrastructure to do this.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
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