More climate change denial from the US government

ScubascottScubascott Posts: 815
edited November 2006 in A Moving Train
Coming from a science background, I found this sickening. Inhofe has essentially found a couple of scientists to present some confusing and misleading data to back up his claims that the current climate change debate is nothing but an evil plot by the UN to sabotage the US economy.

I found this sentence particularly ironic coming from him-

"The United Nations annual climate conference this week exposed what I have known for a long time – that the real focus has little to do with the fate of the planet and much to do about money – who has it, and who wants it"

If anyone needs to see the arguments against this nonsense, feel free to ask.

http://epw.senate.gov/pressitem.cfm?party=rep&id=265956
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!

-C Addison
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Scubascott wrote:
    What a load of shite. I guess he thinks as long as he's rich, global warming is nothing to worry about.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Scubascott wrote:
    I found this sentence particularly ironic coming from him-

    "The United Nations annual climate conference this week exposed what I have known for a long time – that the real focus has little to do with the fate of the planet and much to do about money – who has it, and who wants it"

    This is exactly how many of us view Kyoto. Not questioning the notion of global warming, but questioning it's cause, it's solution, the cost of Kyoto, the expected results of Kyoto, how much those expected results will actually do any good, and the loss of sovereignty involved (which is a more significant cost for me than any monetary cost).

    I'm all for doing my part, and I try to. I'm almost always against signing up for anything the UN decides in conference or committee.

    So don't confuse "climate change denial" as your title states, with opposition to UN schemes. They are two totally different things.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • i think the lack of major hurricanes this season is proof positive that Global warming is fixing itself.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    jeffbr wrote:
    This is exactly how many of us view Kyoto.
    Well put. Kyoto was a poorly thought out political solution to a scientific problem. Just like science shouldn't take into account religions, neither should science take into account politics. With Kyoto that boundary was crossed which resulted in a next to useless plan that punishes the producing countries and not the consuming countries.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • enharmonicenharmonic Posts: 1,917
    Someone should ask him what he stands to lose if we start treating the Earth with the respect and responsibility it deserves.

    In fact, someone should propose a special "environmental abuse" tax on corportations and people who invest in those corporations to get them to comply with global energy and pollution initiatives.

    Now, I understand full well that here are some products which produce naturally hazerdous biproducts, or require particularly damaging processes in order to manufacture, but the only way to get away from such things is to force change through economic sanctions AND rewards.

    Give companies tax breaks that are DIRECTLY TIED to their environmental initiatives...meaning don't just throw a tax break at a corporation...but allow a credit based on initiatives/improvements that can be independently verified.

    Likewise, if a comapany is a particularly heavy contributor to negative environmental issues, they should be held financially accountable. It's the only way to get people to stand up and take action. You have to hit 'em in their bottom line...either positively or negatively.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    enharmonic wrote:
    Someone should ask him what he stands to lose if we start treating the Earth with the respect and responsibility it deserves.

    In fact, someone should propose a special "environmental abuse" tax on corportations and people who invest in those corporations to get them to comply with global energy and pollution initiatives.

    Now, I understand full well that here are some products which produce naturally hazerdous biproducts, or require particularly damaging processes in order to manufacture, but the only way to get away from such things is to force change through economic sanctions AND rewards.

    Give companies tax breaks that are DIRECTLY TIED to their environmental initiatives...meaning don't just throw a tax break at a corporation...but allow a credit based on initiatives/improvements that can be independently verified.

    Likewise, if a comapany is a particularly heavy contributor to negative environmental issues, they should be held financially accountable. It's the only way to get people to stand up and take action. You have to hit 'em in their bottom line...either positively or negatively.
    Why do you want to tax the manufacturing company rather the the purchaser? Do yo understand the imbalance in this, and how this adversely affects natural resource rich nations, and only encourages the export of natural resources in a raw, none value added form. Why not address the huge gaping holes in Kyoto rather than turning a blind eye to them and casting blame on countries who don't want to buy into a shitty accord?
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Fuck the planet who cares right...money is worth more....same logic as always....just keep on polluting people....I wonder how many of these nay sayers where also involved with cigarettes don't cause cancer facade...oh yeah two of the leading critics of climate change, that worked for the US government, also don't (and still do) believe cigarettes lead to cancer.....

    I will believe my scientific background/knowledge over some fucking politician whining and crying over the "economics" of emission control.....there should be no price tag on the environment....
  • surferdude wrote:
    Why do you want to tax the manufacturing company rather the the purchaser? Do yo understand the imbalance in this, and how this adversely affects natural resource rich nations, and only encourages the export of natural resources in a raw, none value added form. Why not address the huge gaping holes in Kyoto rather than turning a blind eye to them and casting blame on countries who don't want to buy into a shitty accord?

    No we should blast countries for not making an attempt, Canada included. For me economics of this is a no brainer...just fucking do it...stop letting beaurcrats drag this through the mud....
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    No we should blast countries for not making an attempt, Canada included. For me economics of this is a no brainer...just fucking do it...stop letting beaurcrats drag this through the mud....
    I'm all for doing it regardless of the cost. But you have to know who's paying for it and make it equitable. Kyoto was not equitable, heavily favored European countries, and Canada was stupid to sign onto the Accord in the form it took.

    The Kyoto Accord is the equivalent type approach that Americans take to health care. Good for the rich and fucks the poor over.

    Not wanting to address the inequities of the Accord is just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring reality. Telling people to just do it when what they have to work with is broken makes no sense.

    If you think it should just be done regardless of the economics then why don't you just buy out every oil producer in Alberta and shut down activity until it can be done in a more environmentally freindly manner. WHat's stopping you? Money? In your own words "For me economics of this is a no brainer...just fucking do it". Well, why haven't you done it?
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • My point in the original post was that Inhofe has deliberately misrepresented the science to support his stance. I had a quick read through the powerpoint slides that were linked in the speech. They mostly focussed on a phenomenon called the 'urban heat island effect', which basically means that cities are warmer than rural areas, so temperature data from weather stations located in areas that are becoming increasingly urbanised appear to show an upward trend in temperature. This does not mean that all our climate data is invalid, it just means that urban data should be either discarded or adjusted to allow for the heat island effect.

    I think they also claimed in there somewhere that the oceans are actually cooling. As a coral biologist with an interest in the effect that sea surface temperatures are having on coral reefs, I can tell you that that claim is absolute bullshit. Ocean surface temperatures have risen by about 1 degree celcius worldwide in the last decade or so. There no dispute about that point. Their claim that oceans are cooling is a flat out lie.

    Now having said that, I should mention that guys like Al Gore, who may or may not have noble intentions, are also presenting the data in a somewhat misleading way. The climate is changing. There can be no denying that. That's why I was so dumbfounded to read that speach and see that some sections of the US government are still insisting on sticking to the old 'There's nothing to worry about folks' line. There is however, still some debate amongst the scientific community regarding the mechanisms of climate change. That's fine. Debating data and theories and mechanisms is what the scientific community does. That doesn't mean that the problem isn't real, and that we shouldn't do something about it.
    It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!

    -C Addison
  • Some change is due to nature, however I just can't fathom how anyone cannot see that there are changes happening that are being exacerbated by the shit we pump into the environment. All I know is this: within a year or so, there was a massive tsunami, the likes of which hasn't been seen for centuries, AND there was a hurricane that BASICALLY WIPED OUT AN AMERICAN CITY. And this is just the shit I can think of off the top of my head. But those two facts alone say something is fucked.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    i think the lack of major hurricanes this season is proof positive that Global warming is fixing itself.


    My interest in this as an American is that this country that we live in is still one of the wildest places in the world to live. This heritage should not be lost. I support our National Parks system to the hilt, and oppose any development or industry that is known to hinder the natural proccess that is our natural world.
    I do not think Humans are a distinct species from the natural world. I do think Nature rules all, and perhaps (maybe not in a lifetime), abuses of the natural world result in consequences to all life on earth.

    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Some change is due to nature, however I just can't fathom how anyone cannot see that there are changes happening that are being exacerbated by the shit we pump into the environment. All I know is this: within a year or so, there was a massive tsunami, the likes of which hasn't been seen for centuries, AND there was a hurricane that BASICALLY WIPED OUT AN AMERICAN CITY. And this is just the shit I can think of off the top of my head. But those two facts alone say something is fucked.

    Just to clear one thing up. . .

    Tsunamis are caused by undersea earthquakes. Earthquakes are caused by tectonic movements of sections of the earth's crust. They have no relationship whatsoever to the temperature in the atmosphere.
    It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!

    -C Addison
  • Scubascott wrote:
    Coming from a science background, I found this sickening. Inhofe has essentially found a couple of scientists to present some confusing and misleading data to back up his claims that the current climate change debate is nothing but an evil plot by the UN to sabotage the US economy.

    I found this sentence particularly ironic coming from him-

    "The United Nations annual climate conference this week exposed what I have known for a long time – that the real focus has little to do with the fate of the planet and much to do about money – who has it, and who wants it"

    If anyone needs to see the arguments against this nonsense, feel free to ask.

    http://epw.senate.gov/pressitem.cfm?party=rep&id=265956

    Who the hell cares? Who can prove global warming?
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Scubascott wrote:
    Just to clear one thing up. . .

    Tsunamis are caused by undersea earthquakes. Earthquakes are caused by tectonic movements of sections of the earth's crust. They have no relationship whatsoever to the temperature in the atmosphere.

    Temperature isn't the argument of Global Warming. The hypothosis of global warming lies in the effects of human emissions and toxic wastes that can cause cooling and warming and acid rain and polluted rivers and species extinction and flooding and droughts.

    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium wrote:
    Temperature isn't the argument of Global Warming. The hypothosis of global warming lies in the effects of human emissions and toxic wastes that can cause cooling and warming and acid rain and polluted rivers and species extinction and flooding and droughts.

    Ok. Prove humans cause global warming.
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • Ok. Prove humans cause global warming.

    It is a combination of so many different variables, that to try that here would be impossible (plus, I don't think any of us has the background to credibly argue chemical reactions and their impact on the balance of nature). But I think we can all agree that the amount of chemical byproducts we are pumping out are definitely not working in our favor.
  • It is a combination of so many different variables, that to try that here would be impossible (plus, I don't think any of us has the background to credibly argue chemical reactions and their impact on the balance of nature). But I think we can all agree that the amount of chemical byproducts we are pumping out are definitely not working in our favor.


    So you can't prove it. You can't prove the byproducts we are pumpining out are causing anything either. Trying it anywhere is impossible. No one can prove it. Some scientist try to sound like the smartest guy in the room, but no one can prove it.

    What were the different variables that cause the Earth to forget hurricane season?
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ok. Prove humans cause global warming.

    DDT. Acid rain. Smog. A hole in the Ozone. etc, etc.

    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium wrote:
    DDT. Acid rain. Smog. A hole in the Ozone. etc, etc.


    lol Prove any of that causes global warming. Prove global warming is even a valid term for anything.

    Ok, so it exist. Which year will be our last? Give me a definate period in time that we will all be wiped from the Earth. Or maybe just generally.
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • So you can't prove it. You can't prove the byproducts we are pumpining out are causing anything either. Trying it anywhere is impossible. No one can prove it. Some scientist try to sound like the smartest guy in the room, but no one can prove it.

    What were the different variables that cause the Earth to forget hurricane season?

    Guy, we are dispersing chemicals into the environment that are toxic. So toxic, in fact that if you came into direct contact with some of them, you would die. If you doubt me, turn on your car, close the garage, and roll down your windows. See if you can even type after 15 minutes.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    lol Prove any of that causes global warming. Prove global warming is even a valid term for anything.

    Ok, so it exist. Which year will be our last? Give me a definate period in time that we will all be wiped from the Earth. Or maybe just generally.


    I'm not one of those who forecasts cataclysmic causes. I am one concerned in the way Humans relate themselves to the world we live in. I think we're a bit glutted on the easy way in ignorance of the consequences on our natural environment.

    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Guy, we are dispersing chemicals into the environment that are toxic. So toxic, in fact that if you came into direct contact with some of them, you would die. If you doubt me, turn on your car, close the garage, and roll down your windows. See if you can even type after 15 minutes.

    I could shoot myself in the face, guy, and not be able to type to you 15 minutes from now.

    Oil has been seeping into the oceans for millions of years. How did we ever make it? Where were the hurricanes this year? Surely things haven't gotten any better in the last 8 months? So better than hurricane season was non-existent? Prove the chemicals dispersing from my vehicle is causing global warming. Or from anyones vehicle. I don't care to hear examples about things that can kill me. Tell me how these things are bringing about the end of the world.
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • gue_barium wrote:
    I'm not one of those who forecasts cataclysmic causes. I am one concerned in the way Humans relate themselves to the world we live in. I think we're a bit glutted on the easy way in ignorance of the consequences on our natural environment.

    Sure, if you think you can help, then live in the jungle. But don't tell me about things you think I'm doing that are bringing about the end of humanity when you can't prove them. Gore already missed his first deadline...
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Sure, if you think you can help, then live in the jungle. But don't tell me about things you think I'm doing that are bringing about the end of humanity when you can't prove them. Gore already missed his first deadline...

    You live in a time that has given you a chance to make things better.

    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium wrote:
    You live in a time that has given you a chance to make things better.


    Ok Confucius. Thanks for proving global warming.
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • I could shoot myself in the face, guy, and not be able to type to you 15 minutes from now.

    Oil has been seeping into the oceans for millions of years. How did we ever make it? Where were the hurricanes this year? Surely things haven't gotten any better in the last 8 months? So better than hurricane season was non-existent? Prove the chemicals dispersing from my vehicle is causing global warming. Or from anyones vehicle. I don't care to hear examples about things that can kill me. Tell me how these things are bringing about the end of the world.

    Again, there is natural change (oil seeping). As far as the last 8 months, this has been an on-going issue since the Industrial Revolution when there was no EPA. These things add up over time and eventually lead to symptoms (Tsunamis, hurricanes, etc.) of a larger issue. The fact that the shit that comes out of your car, can in fact kill you, is reason enough. Multiple that toxic level across millions of cars across the globe, factories spewing out worse shit into the air, natural water dumping, nuclear waste--all for years upon years-- and when it all adds up, you have some seriously not fun shit going into nature, which already has a delicate balance. If you can't understand the negative impact of these things, well that just scares the shit out of me.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ok Confucius. Thanks for proving global warming.

    You don't deny that humans can have a negative effect on the environment, so do something about it.

    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Again, there is natural change (oil seeping). As far as the last 8 months, this has been an on-going issue since the Industrial Revolution when there was no EPA. These things add up over time and eventually lead to symptoms (Tsunamis, hurricanes, etc.) of a larger issue. The fact that the shit that comes out of your car, can in fact kill you, is reason enough. Multiple that toxic level across millions of cars across the globe, factories spewing out worse shit into the air, natural water dumping, nuclear waste--all for years upon years-- and when it all adds up, you have some seriously not fun shit going into nature, which already has a delicate balance. If you can't understand the negative impact of these things, well that just scares the shit out of me.

    Alright, and what exactly caused the earthquake of 1906? The lasting effects of the Industrial Revolution?

    The vapors emitted from volcanoes can kill me.

    The Earth has existed for 4.5 billion years in a delicate state?

    The scarey fact is that you're trying to prove this to me. Which you haven't.
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
  • gue_barium wrote:
    You don't deny that humans can have a negative effect on the environment, so do something about it.



    Humans can't stop hurricanes so how do you suggest we start them?
    "Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"

    "What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."

    Camden 5-28-06
    Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
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