Biblical Revelations Revisited

RainDog

Throughout history, people have thought that "the problems of the current world are insurmountable. War, Death, Famine, Disease! We are approaching the end times!" Now, maybe it's just me, but it seems that in order for this to be true, evidence that today's War, Death, Famine, Disease! are the final, ultimate War, Death, Famine, Disease! would have to show that they are now somehow worse than the War, Death, Famine, Disease! of the past. But instead, the evidence shows that today's War, Death, Famine, Disease! have nothing on WWII, the Crusades, the Black Plague, and past droughts that wiped out entire civilizations.

Again, maybe it's just me, and maybe for others (and even myself) it's hard to admit, but it seems that overall things are getting better, not worse. Our strife is especially dire only in that it is ours.

As for the Mayan calendar - it couldn't very well account for eternity, so it had to end sometime. Personally, I think it has more in common with Y2k than some sort of supernatural prescience.

butters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_religious_prophecies

is the proper link, my bad

do a search for the 'Great Disappointment' as well

Looking through history I see a common pattern of:

1 - prophecy movement
2 - prophecy failure
3 - backlash (though sometimes cult leaders avoid it by making new stuff up)
4 - everyone forgets and does it again

A recent example is Y2K

Some of my friends really thought things were happening, with Y2K, and the year 2000 etc. Ask em about it now and they tell me to shut up

angelica

RainDog wrote:

Throughout history, people have thought that "the problems of the current world are insurmountable. War, Death, Famine, Disease! We are approaching the end times!" Now, maybe it's just me, but it seems that in order for this to be true, evidence that today's War, Death, Famine, Disease! are the final, ultimate War, Death, Famine, Disease! would have to show that they are now somehow worse than the War, Death, Famine, Disease! of the past. But instead, the evidence shows that today's War, Death, Famine, Disease! have nothing on WWII, the Crusades, the Black Plague, and past droughts that wiped out entire civilizations.

To me the symbols of darkness that we see in our views, whether back in 1942 or whether now, or as they vary from person to person are equal.

Again, maybe it's just me, and maybe for others (and even myself) it's hard to admit, but it seems that overall things are getting better, not worse. Our strife is especially dire only in that it is ours.

Objectively speaking, meaning besides all kinds of subjective personal stories that tell of horror and mayhem, I agree, we are progressing in a general sense. And that's kind of where I'm going with this. When we resolve our existential dilemmas--our personal and collective battles with good/bad, we progress to the next level/stage. We evolve.

Ultimately, though, I'm starting to see that as we do this, we are reaching the peak--we are reaching a level foreseen by many through time. It is the level where we are existentially challenged to grow within in order to be able to live in true cooperation. It's evolving at this time in order to accomodate our global reach with technology, trade, etc. Yes there is fallout, as with any evolution. Ultimately, though, in human developmental levels this is charted--that once we reach a certain level as individuals and groups, we have learned to get along with anyone. This is at the higher levels of human development known at this time. This is because we've learned how to truly to cooperate. Until individuals reach this level, they continue to battle back and forth over "right/wrong". It's merely from the views in the stages preceding cooperation that we feel we'll always have conflict and separation--because we cannot see beyond the conflict we have internalized when we have not resolved it. So, now, existentially, we're being called to this, and as we progress and meet the challenge, we will move into a whole new way of being. This concept is what Marx talked of. It's when we will learn to cooperate willingly, because we learn it's the only way. It's not about where a group of people force us all to cooperate. At this emerging stage, life will take on a new meaning, and the growth we will acquire solving these existential dilemmas will enable us to elaborate on very different and very necessary and more lateral, rather than hierarchical systems. As with cooperation, the outcome will be win/win across the board. Like others through history, I can handle if this comes to fruition in 50 years or in 200. We are seeing benefits right now, for sure.

As for the Mayan calendar - it couldn't very well account for eternity, so it had to end sometime. Personally, I think it has more in common with Y2k than some sort of supernatural prescience.

Why couldn't it account for eternity? I'm not all that up on the Mayan calendar, so I don't understand.

The thing with the Mayan calendar is that their whole way of looking at and charting day to day was entirely different than our calendar. We are very bound to time and linear and logical things, and they were bound to a very different perception set, from what I understand.

angelica

butters wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_religious_prophecies

is the proper link, my bad

do a search for the 'Great Disappointment' as well

Looking through history I see a common pattern of:

1 - prophecy movement
2 - prophecy failure
3 - backlash (though sometimes cult leaders avoid it by making new stuff up)
4 - everyone forgets and does it again

A recent example is Y2K

Some of my friends really thought things were happening, with Y2K, and the year 2000 etc. Ask em about it now and they tell me to shut up

Thanks for the link. The key about our errors in judgment, such as with Y2K, is that we cannot dispute what huge lessons we've learned. In psychology, they've identified spirals of human development--where we come full circle on a subject, and then we progress to a similar issue on a higher level of awareness. What happens is we learn lessons and progress. Then we go on and come into a similar learning experience on a bigger scale, where we must relearn a very similar but different lesson. And further on, to greater and greater degrees. Each time our awareness goes higher and becomes more expansive, like the loops on a spiral. I think the key is to consciously recognize what we've developed out of our growth experiences. Otherwise, we merely grow unconsciously, without understanding, and there's a lot more pain and resistance that way.

RainDog

angelica wrote:

To me the symbols of darkness that we see in our views, whether back in 1942 or whether now, or as they vary from person to person are equal.

Subjectively, yes, I agree. My problems are always the worst problems because they are mine. Also, nothing can be done to stop the travesties of the past - we can't go back and stop the holocaust, for example - but if continuing worry about our current state helps keep things like the holocaust from happening again, I'm all for it. What I don't want, and I see it in end-times thinking, is a surrender to the horrors of the world because "it's prophesy. Nothing can be done to stop it."

angelica wrote:

Objectively speaking, meaning besides all kinds of subjective personal stories that tell of horror and mayhem, I agree, we are progressing in a general sense. And that's kind of where I'm going with this. When we resolve our existential dilemmas--our personal and collective battles with good/bad, we progress to the next level/stage. We evolve.

Ultimately, though, I'm starting to see that as we do this, we are reaching the peak--we are reaching a level foreseen by many through time. It is the level where we are existentially challenged to grow within in order to be able to live in true cooperation. It's evolving at this time in order to accomodate our global reach with technology, trade, etc. Yes there is fallout, as with any evolution. Ultimately, though, in human developmental levels this is charted--that once we reach a certain level as individuals and groups, we have learned to get along with anyone. This is at the higher levels of human development known at this time. This is because we've learned how to truly to cooperate. Until individuals reach this level, they continue to battle back and forth over "right/wrong". It's merely from the views in the stages preceding cooperation that we feel we'll always have conflict and separation--because we cannot see beyond the conflict we have internalized when we have not resolved it. So, now, existentially, we're being called to this, and as we progress and meet the challenge, we will move into a whole new way of being. This concept is what Marx talked of. It's when we will learn to cooperate willingly, because we learn it's the only way. It's not about where a group of people force us all to cooperate. At this emerging stage, life will take on a new meaning, and the growth we will acquire solving these existential dilemmas will enable us to elaborate on very different and very necessary and more lateral, rather than hierarchical systems. As with cooperation, the outcome will be win/win across the board. Like others through history, I can handle if this comes to fruition in 50 years or in 200. We are seeing benefits right now, for sure.

With peaks come slopes. Even if we reach this level of cooperation, it won't last forever. In fact, I don't think it could last forever. One earthquake, one well placed hurricane, one out of control pandemic, and we'll realize that the strife that's plagued humanity since it's beginning - that's plagued all life since it's beginning - is still there. Humans get notoriously irrational when faced with things beyond their control - and just about everything is beyond their control. To make a bad pun, enlightenment is like all light - it can and will be switched off/burn out.

angelica wrote:

Why couldn't it account for eternity? I'm not all that up on the Mayan calendar, so I don't understand.

The thing with the Mayan calendar is that their whole way of looking at and charting day to day was entirely different than our calendar. We are very bound to time and linear and logical things, and they were bound to a very different perception set, from what I understand.

If I'm not mistaken, and it's entirely possible I am, the Mayan calendar isn't cyclical like ours is (January 1st comes around every year). Rather, I think it's a "straight line" (though I think it resembles more of a spiral). When you measure time that way, you have to stop at some point. Otherwise, people would still be at work carving it.

Here's a joke, but it pretty much sums up why I believe the Mayan calendar ends in 2012:
http://www.anthroblogs.org/nomadicthoughts/archives/maya_cartoon.JPG

angelica

RainDog wrote:

Subjectively, yes, I agree. My problems are always the worst problems because they are mine. Also, nothing can be done to stop the travesties of the past - we can't go back and stop the holocaust, for example - but if continuing worry about our current state helps keep things like the holocaust from happening again, I'm all for it. What I don't want, and I see it in end-times thinking, is a surrender to the horrors of the world because "it's prophesy. Nothing can be done to stop it."

I would say being aware of the fullness of a situation helps us deal with it in a balanced, adaptive way. I would say worrying about it indicates we have unresolved issues that are emotional, within, and that we are looking through a fear lens, which is objectively unrealistic, and is rather about our own inner existential issues, which we've yet to resolve. This is why as we rise to these challenges, it is necessary for us all to realize how we are contributing to the problems before us, in order to figure out how to contribute to solutions, instead.

With peaks come slopes. Even if we reach this level of cooperation, it won't last forever. In fact, I don't think it could last forever. One earthquake, one well placed hurricane, one out of control pandemic, and we'll realize that the strife that's plagued humanity since it's beginning - that's plagued all life since it's beginning - is still there. Humans get notoriously irrational when faced with things beyond their control - and just about everything is beyond their control. To make a bad pun, enlightenment is like all light - it can and will be switched off/burn out.

According to human development, once someone reaches beyond the numerous either/or phases of development, beyond the many "I'm right/you are wrong" levels, they come to a new place. There remains conflicts and all kinds of issues, but they are dealt with differently, in increasingly cooperative ways from thereon in. Certainly it progresses with trial and error, and two steps forward, one back as always, meaning it feels balanced between positive and negative, but the general cooperation is very different than the earlier phases of one up/one down.

Each developmental stage, as we leave one level and move towards the next, our centre of balance is somewhat precarious, between stages. However the progression continues, and as we develop to where our centre of balance is at a level of learned and understood ingrained respect, boundary, cooperation, etc., within, we may regress somewhat here and there, or progress, too, but we do not regress back to earlier stages of one-up/one-down. We are centered at a new level, no matter what happens. That doesn't mean we're not devasted if our loved one is swalled up in a Tsunami, it's just that we deal with it consciously, rather than project our inner unrecognized dynamics all over others. We own our issues, and are self-contained, while being interactive.

If I'm not mistaken, and it's entirely possible I am, the Mayan calendar isn't cyclical like ours is (January 1st comes around every year). Rather, I think it's a "straight line" (though I think it resembles more of a spiral). When you measure time that way, you have to stop at some point. Otherwise, people would still be at work carving it.

Here's a joke, but it pretty much sums up why I believe the Mayan calendar ends in 2012:
http://www.anthroblogs.org/nomadicthoughts/archives/maya_cartoon.JPG

Okay, I see what you're saying and you may be right. I also tend to believe what it symbolizes as well, beyond it's literal structure. It'll be interesting to see play out.

I in no way believe we are coming to the end of the world. I do believe we are coming to the end of the world as we know it, and we'll be fine...in general. However, within the generality, there will be many back and forth stages, and we are on the cusp of potentially blowing ourselves up, so the ante is really about as raised as we can imagine in reality. And people are being evolutionarily squeezed out all the time, as has always been the way. We experience fallout for our lacks. It's time that we all start resolving our stuff inside, so that we can actually bring that personal evolution to the table. Prophetic metaphors are not what they seem on the surface, imo. They are upside down and backwards, and not literal--they are meant to appeal to the non-linear logical aspects of our nature within. And interestingly, we reflect our inner processes outward into the physical world all the time, whether it's exercising our demons, or actualizing our potential.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

I'm looking for some insights into the "Revelations" of the bible. I've heard people say we are going through an/the apolcalypse now with all the darkness in the world. We are going through the end of times, so it's been said.

As we segue into this new worldwide global consciousness, and usher in the true spirit of humanity, what I'm wondering, does anyone know how this may or may not fit with the biblical prophesies and "Revelations"? I am not very biblically aware.

my understanding of christianity is that they would never condone such a new age interpretation of revelation. revelation is about jesus coming to earth to kick some fucking ass and give sinners their comeuppance. the betterment of humanity is not what christianity is about. we're already a lost cause from their perspective, and it isn't until god gets his genocide on that we might emerge ok in heaven.

it's kinda fucked up that according to revelation, the peaceful golden age is a work of the anti-christ/devil. not much incentive to work for peace is it? it also implies that the way of god is violence and peacemakers are devils.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

my understanding of christianity is that they would never condone such a new age interpretation of revelation. revelation is about jesus coming to earth to kick some fucking ass and give sinners their comeuppance. the betterment of humanity is not what christianity is about. we're already a lost cause from their perspective, and it isn't until god gets his genocide on that we might emerge ok in heaven.

it's kinda fucked up that according to revelation, the peaceful golden age is a work of the anti-christ/devil. not much incentive to work for peace is it? it also implies that the way of god is violence and peacemakers are devils.

The thing is that double speak does not hold up in any situation, ever. So, it's easy to see through it for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. ie: peace is evil; Killing is Godly. These can never be justified. The trick is to understand the truth and to work for it, and let those with gnashing teeth continue with their onslaughts--eventually, they fall from one's vision. Illusions cannot sustain themselves in the realm of truth.

In our society, the most general beliefs are diametrically opposed to the truth. Christianity does acknowledge this to a degree, although many Christians may miss this in terms of being generally conscious of it: they recognize they are flawed sinners (thereby in error and entirely fallible) and are only saved through Jesus. And ultimately, they are still to be held to account for everything they do. And yet, Christians, and people from ALL walks of life continue to live from the flawed, "sinning" perspective, perpetuating this lack of clarity around us as "normal" to the degree of attempting justify this lack, over and over. It's a problem of the human ego. The only way to get beyond this is to move beyond the ego to the Self, which is an inner journey.

This is a split that occurs from living from "belief" rather than coming from experience and "knowing" and BEing.