Biblical Revelations Revisited

angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
edited August 2007 in A Moving Train
I'm looking for some insights into the "Revelations" of the bible. I've heard people say we are going through an/the apolcalypse now with all the darkness in the world. We are going through the end of times, so it's been said.

This stuff is starting to come together for me.

First of all, from my understanding of the Mayan calender stuff, and the idea that it is ending in the year 2012, we are supposed to be moving into the end of times. However, what it looks like is the ending of our view of "time" itself as being an absolute. So the general consciousness of humanity, rather than continuing to live by linear measurement of cause and effect, which includes blame and judgment, will begin to shift into a new way of perceiving reality--as more holistic and as a way of understanding and cooperating.

So, as we are making this shift in consciousness worldwide, all of humanity's age old wounds are opening up to the light of day, to be healed. It looks very ugly on the surface. This is because we are being forced to look at our worst traumas from history, and from within our very hearts, as well. And it's like a death to us. It's a metamorphosis. We must die to the old before we can be renewed. And there are many dark nights included, before this "second coming"--the onset of a prophesized age of peace--a Golden age--where unity and prosperity become our new focus.

"He who overcometh shall not feel the second death".

As we segue into this new worldwide global consciousness, and usher in the true spirit of humanity, what I'm wondering, does anyone know how this may or may not fit with the biblical prophesies and "Revelations"? I am not very biblically aware.

Peace. :)
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

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Comments

  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    Very interesting question but I'm afraid I can't really help you.

    But National Geographic has/had a programme called Mysteries of the Bible, one part was about the book of revelations. It's an interesting point of view.

    Anyway, I don't really believe in all this stuff and I think you can interpret these things so broadly that it would almost always be correct.
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  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    angelica wrote:
    I'm looking for some insights into the "Revelations" of the bible. I've heard people say we are going through an/the apolcalypse now with all the darkness in the world. We are going through the end of times, so it's been said.

    This stuff is starting to come together for me.

    First of all, from my understanding of the Mayan calender stuff, and the idea that it is ending in the year 2012, we are supposed to be moving into the end of times. However, what it looks like is the ending of our view of "time" itself as being an absolute. So the general consciousness of humanity, rather than continuing to live by linear measurement of cause and effect, which includes blame and judgment, will begin to shift into a new way of perceiving reality--as more holistic and as a way of understanding and cooperating.

    So, as we are making this shift in consciousness worldwide, all of humanity's age old wounds are opening up to the light of day, to be healed. It looks very ugly on the surface. This is because we are being forced to look at our worst traumas from history, and from within our very hearts, as well. And it's like a death to us. It's a metamorphosis. We must die to the old before we can be renewed. And there are many dark nights included, before this "second coming"--the onset of a prophesized age of peace--a Golden age--where unity and prosperity become our new focus.

    "He who overcometh shall not feel the second death".

    As we segue into this new worldwide global consciousness, and usher in the true spirit of humanity, what I'm wondering, does anyone know how this may or may not fit with the biblical prophesies and "Revelations"? I am not very biblically aware.

    Peace. :)


    That's a very good question and I'll only make couple of comments. Generally speaking each generation has thought the end times are coming during their time alive, b/c the book of revelation talks about famine, earthquakes etc... When Israel become a nation again in 1948 many people thought this was the beginning of the end times; esp when there were wars in the middle east and constant strife. Revelations, in the bible, is a very difficult book to read and to say exactly what it's talking about. There are many interpretations of the book and you'll find disagreement in a lot of christain circles re: the book. Here is an interesting link that talks about the end times and should give you a brief overview of the end time biblical events. http://www.focusongod.com/Rev05.htm
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • ArmsinaVArmsinaV Posts: 108
    Revelation is complex, but it's also figurative, not literal. It's about what has ALREADY HAPPENED (the collapse of Rome, etc.), not what we should be looking for in the future.

    The Church is called to be the church today, not interpret 'apocalyptic' signs and try and figure out the 'end times.'
    2000: Lubbock; 2003: OKC, Dallas, San Antonio; 2006: Los Angeles II, San Diego; 2008: Atlanta (EV Solo); 2012: Dallas (EV Solo); 2013: Dallas; 2014: Tulsa; 2018: Wrigley I
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    ArmsinaV wrote:
    Revelation is complex, but it's also figurative, not literal. It's about what has ALREADY HAPPENED (the collapse of Rome, etc.), not what we should be looking for in the future.
    this is where a lot of disagreement occurs and I'm not getting into it

    ArmsinaV wrote:
    The Church is called to be the church today, not interpret 'apocalyptic' signs and try and figure out the 'end times.'

    I couldn't agree more.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    ArmsinaV wrote:
    Revelation is complex, but it's also figurative, not literal. It's about what has ALREADY HAPPENED (the collapse of Rome, etc.), not what we should be looking for in the future.

    Yes, I think this is what the National Geographic programme deals with as well.

    It also deals with the rapture:

    John Nelson Darby, a 19th century Irish lawyer turned Anglican preacher, developed a method of biblical interpretation called dispensationalism in which he incorporated Ribera's futuristic views. Darby became "the father of the rapture doctrine." He was the first to develop a full-blown theology that incorporated the teaching that Jesus would return secretly (His "second" coming) to rapture His true followers, leaving the rest behind to be ruled by an evil antichrist for seven years, and then return again (His "third" coming) in a visible, glorious coming to destroy antichrist, save those who were converted during the seven-year tribulation, and establish His own kingdom.

    Cyrus Scofield, a disciple of Darby's, later published a Bible with explanatory notes in which he incorporated Darby's views on the rapture. The Scofield Bible is still the most popular Bible sold today.

    Thus the rapture theory made its way into the psyche and formal teaching of much of the Christian world.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • JamMastaEJamMastaE Posts: 444
    angelica wrote:
    .

    As we segue into this new worldwide global consciousness, and usher in the true spirit of humanity, what I'm wondering, does anyone know how this may or may not fit with the biblical prophesies and "Revelations"? I am not very biblically aware.

    Peace. :)

    yes it fits,it's called the coming of the beast!! those who push for one world government,one religion and one currency.they are trying to bring about the anti-Christ system.that's what our collapsing economy is about,that's what these wars are about,that's what the EU is about,that's what the American union is about.gradual consolidation of land/money/governments under the UN.Globalism is not going to bring about peace and harmony.it's about a global dictatorship.if you look at world and think we are on the verge of enlightenment and about to usher in the true spirit of humanity you need to get of the fucking crack lady!!!!
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot". Mark Twain


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  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    JamMastaE wrote:
    yes it fits,it's called the coming of the beast!! those who push for one world government,one religion and one currency.they are trying to bring about the anti-Christ system.that's what our collapsing economy is about,that's what these wars are about,that's what the EU is about,that's what the American union is about.gradual consolidation of land/money/governments under the UN.Globalism is not going to bring about peace and harmony.it's about a global dictatorship.if you look at world and think we are on the verge of enlightenment and about to usher in the true spirit of humanity you need to get of the fucking crack lady!!!!

    Yes, a beast is arising, and it will be playing out on the world stage with the purpose of bringing up our worst aspects as humans up from within so we can heal. So we can resolve this idea of good vs evil for once and for all. When you are looking at life through the lens of fear, and you believe it is true, you project it out into the world and you create that. At the same time, when we trust the balance of nature and realize the fear comes from within, we can resolve the fear and see things the way they are: as LOVE/unity, etc. This is happening to millions of people across the globe. And as the millions face their worse fears, through the plays we've created on the world stage, these millions of individuals will be more aligned with the unity our technology and developing consciousness holds for us. Oh, yes, we are creating ugliness and fallout. That is the nature of evolution. For every two steps forward, there is one back.

    http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=4318032

    "The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question: "Is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we kill those people. ... It's just a ride. But we always kill those few guys that try to tell us that, you ever notice that? and let the demons run amuck. but it doesn't matter cuz it's just a ride and we can change it any time we want. Its only a choice, no effort, and no worries, no job, no savings of money. Just a choice right now between Fear and Love."
    ~Bill Hicks
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    chopitdown wrote:
    That's a very good question and I'll only make couple of comments. Generally speaking each generation has thought the end times are coming during their time alive, b/c the book of revelation talks about famine, earthquakes etc... When Israel become a nation again in 1948 many people thought this was the beginning of the end times; esp when there were wars in the middle east and constant strife. Revelations, in the bible, is a very difficult book to read and to say exactly what it's talking about. There are many interpretations of the book and you'll find disagreement in a lot of christain circles re: the book. Here is an interesting link that talks about the end times and should give you a brief overview of the end time biblical events. http://www.focusongod.com/Rev05.htm
    Thanks for the link! I'm working my way through it. The stuff seems a little over my head, due to my lack of background in it. :)

    I personally think that as we as individuals or groups are personally facing our personal evolution through life, these metaphors apply to us and our own inner "battles" of good and evil and resolving these issues within. It entails facing our worst inner demons if we expect to find inner peace. Most of us learn through "stories" and we first project our inner battle outward, and see it in others, before we can start to see it within ourselves. For example, when I was mentally ill, and feeling great pain for the way people harmed me, I thought it was so ugly and horrible seeing it around me. And I vowed to learn to decide not to be that way myself. And that led me to resolve that ugliness when it would/does rear it's ugly head in me.

    I can definitely understand what you are saying about 1948, and thinking it was the end of times, with things looking so grim in the world.

    At the same time, I'm fascinated how many disciplines are pointing to the end of "time". The Mayan calendar stuff has prophesized this where we will enter a new way of being, different than our old way of ordering life, which was represented by our calendars and how we view time. Big change is expected. Now that I can instantaneously find information online and send it to anyone in the world, time is taking on a new slant in our perception. And to me,it's like the REM song, where we're experiencing--"the End of the World As We Know It". I see these shifts as ones that will naturally take place. I see them already--where by our evolving technology and communication, illusory limits and lines are dissolving. And we are learning we must see ourselves as the global village, because we cannot hurt another and hide from the consequences. We are focusing on the spirit of who we are in our vast conversations, such as right now, rather than the literal lines of who we are. I have no idea who you are physically. I saw in a video yesterday, how now, when we put something on the internet, we really have no ownership of it anymore. It's one with the spirit of us all, in that sense. Individuality in that sense is being erased.

    However, the individuality we've developed, in reality is growing stronger in order to manage this higher level of connection and to stay healthy. And in order to make these adaptations, we must release the old flaws in our perception, and be "cleansed" by the Spirit. Peace. :)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Collin wrote:
    Yes, I think this is what the National Geographic programme deals with as well.

    It also deals with the rapture:

    John Nelson Darby, a 19th century Irish lawyer turned Anglican preacher, developed a method of biblical interpretation called dispensationalism in which he incorporated Ribera's futuristic views. Darby became "the father of the rapture doctrine." He was the first to develop a full-blown theology that incorporated the teaching that Jesus would return secretly (His "second" coming) to rapture His true followers, leaving the rest behind to be ruled by an evil antichrist for seven years, and then return again (His "third" coming) in a visible, glorious coming to destroy antichrist, save those who were converted during the seven-year tribulation, and establish His own kingdom.

    Cyrus Scofield, a disciple of Darby's, later published a Bible with explanatory notes in which he incorporated Darby's views on the rapture. The Scofield Bible is still the most popular Bible sold today.

    Thus the rapture theory made its way into the psyche and formal teaching of much of the Christian world.
    Thanks. What little I've learned about the rapture was on this board. I was not familiar with it before. I will definitely look further into it. :)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    ArmsinaV wrote:
    Revelation is complex, but it's also figurative, not literal. It's about what has ALREADY HAPPENED (the collapse of Rome, etc.), not what we should be looking for in the future.

    The Church is called to be the church today, not interpret 'apocalyptic' signs and try and figure out the 'end times.'
    Thanks for sharing your perspective. I wonder if you have any articles that you can offer me. I'm interested in hearing more. Thanks. :)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    angelica wrote:
    Thanks for sharing your perspective. I wonder if you have any articles that you can offer me. I'm interested in hearing more. Thanks. :)

    Yay, angelica started a thread, and a very interesting one at that! I saw the program Collin referred to and it was very interesting. There are many schools of thought pertaining to Revelations.

    After quick google search, I found this site that reviews the different views on Revelations. http://www.apocalipsis.org/rev-int.htm

    I just briefly scanned it, so others might have better links.
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    but the illusion of knowledge.
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  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    baraka wrote:
    Yay, angelica started a thread, and a very interesting one at that! I saw the program Collin referred to and it was very interesting. There are many schools of thought pertaining to Revelations.

    After quick google search, I found this site that reviews the different views on Revelations. http://www.apocalipsis.org/rev-int.htm

    I just briefly scanned it, so others might have better links.
    Hey! Thanks for joining in! It's a "fun" topic! Thanks for the link. I'll be going out and I'll check this all later. :)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Collin wrote:
    Very interesting question but I'm afraid I can't really help you.

    But National Geographic has/had a programme called Mysteries of the Bible, one part was about the book of revelations. It's an interesting point of view.

    Anyway, I don't really believe in all this stuff and I think you can interpret these things so broadly that it would almost always be correct.
    Maybe I'll hunt around online for the programme that you speak of...when I have a bit more time. :)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • JuberooJuberoo Posts: 472
    Why don't you ask some clergymen? You could visit any number of denominations and get their take on it. Or ask the ones who come knocking at the door. They are deep into revelation prophecy.
    Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.

    A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.

    Pro-life by choice.
  • buttersbutters Posts: 63
    Some people have an insatiable desire to be around at the end of the world...

    History is full of people who thought the end of the world was imminent. Here's an example in christianity, though apocolyptophiles are hardly a christian phenomonon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfille ... Christians


    Pay particular attention to the millerites/seventh dat adventists.

    When 2015 comes around and nothinghas changed, don't dig yourself deeper into a hole like those guys.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    why so many ''I thinks'' in this thread...well heres another


    I think you Should Start at the Center and than look out... your answers could be there... but be careful... the answers could very well be fatal.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Juberoo wrote:
    Why don't you ask some clergymen? You could visit any number of denominations and get their take on it. Or ask the ones who come knocking at the door. They are deep into revelation prophecy.
    In this instance, on this board, with my fellow posters, I'm asking them. I'm interested in a wide array of points of view, so I can come to identify some of the universal themes. These views reflect what is being taught by the clergy, and how it's understood.

    We're all in touch with these universal forces at all times. I see the authority and light that shines in my fellow poster's eyes. God works in fun and interesting ways when he speaks to us.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    butters wrote:
    Some people have an insatiable desire to be around at the end of the world...

    History is full of people who thought the end of the world was imminent. Here's an example in christianity, though apocolyptophiles are hardly a christian phenomonon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfille ... Christians


    Pay particular attention to the millerites/seventh dat adventists.

    When 2015 comes around and nothinghas changed, don't dig yourself deeper into a hole like those guys.
    The link isn't working for me right now. Thanks though, I'll continue to try or to access the line of thought elsewhere.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    macgyver06 wrote:
    why so many ''I thinks'' in this thread...well heres another


    I think you Should Start at the Center and than look out... your answers could be there... but be careful... the answers could very well be fatal.
    By starting at the Centre, do you mean "within"?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • fanch75fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    ArmsinaV wrote:
    Revelation is complex, but it's also figurative, not literal. It's about what has ALREADY HAPPENED (the collapse of Rome, etc.), not what we should be looking for in the future.

    I believe this is the Catholic point of view, as well.
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    Throughout history, people have thought that "the problems of the current world are insurmountable. War, Death, Famine, Disease! We are approaching the end times!" Now, maybe it's just me, but it seems that in order for this to be true, evidence that today's War, Death, Famine, Disease! are the final, ultimate War, Death, Famine, Disease! would have to show that they are now somehow worse than the War, Death, Famine, Disease! of the past. But instead, the evidence shows that today's War, Death, Famine, Disease! have nothing on WWII, the Crusades, the Black Plague, and past droughts that wiped out entire civilizations.

    Again, maybe it's just me, and maybe for others (and even myself) it's hard to admit, but it seems that overall things are getting better, not worse. Our strife is especially dire only in that it is ours.

    As for the Mayan calendar - it couldn't very well account for eternity, so it had to end sometime. Personally, I think it has more in common with Y2k than some sort of supernatural prescience.
  • buttersbutters Posts: 63
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_religious_prophecies

    is the proper link, my bad

    do a search for the 'Great Disappointment' as well

    Looking through history I see a common pattern of:

    1 - prophecy movement
    2 - prophecy failure
    3 - backlash (though sometimes cult leaders avoid it by making new stuff up)
    4 - everyone forgets and does it again

    A recent example is Y2K

    Some of my friends really thought things were happening, with Y2K, and the year 2000 etc. Ask em about it now and they tell me to shut up
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    RainDog wrote:
    Throughout history, people have thought that "the problems of the current world are insurmountable. War, Death, Famine, Disease! We are approaching the end times!" Now, maybe it's just me, but it seems that in order for this to be true, evidence that today's War, Death, Famine, Disease! are the final, ultimate War, Death, Famine, Disease! would have to show that they are now somehow worse than the War, Death, Famine, Disease! of the past. But instead, the evidence shows that today's War, Death, Famine, Disease! have nothing on WWII, the Crusades, the Black Plague, and past droughts that wiped out entire civilizations.
    To me the symbols of darkness that we see in our views, whether back in 1942 or whether now, or as they vary from person to person are equal.
    Again, maybe it's just me, and maybe for others (and even myself) it's hard to admit, but it seems that overall things are getting better, not worse. Our strife is especially dire only in that it is ours.
    Objectively speaking, meaning besides all kinds of subjective personal stories that tell of horror and mayhem, I agree, we are progressing in a general sense. And that's kind of where I'm going with this. When we resolve our existential dilemmas--our personal and collective battles with good/bad, we progress to the next level/stage. We evolve.

    Ultimately, though, I'm starting to see that as we do this, we are reaching the peak--we are reaching a level foreseen by many through time. It is the level where we are existentially challenged to grow within in order to be able to live in true cooperation. It's evolving at this time in order to accomodate our global reach with technology, trade, etc. Yes there is fallout, as with any evolution. Ultimately, though, in human developmental levels this is charted--that once we reach a certain level as individuals and groups, we have learned to get along with anyone. This is at the higher levels of human development known at this time. This is because we've learned how to truly to cooperate. Until individuals reach this level, they continue to battle back and forth over "right/wrong". It's merely from the views in the stages preceding cooperation that we feel we'll always have conflict and separation--because we cannot see beyond the conflict we have internalized when we have not resolved it. So, now, existentially, we're being called to this, and as we progress and meet the challenge, we will move into a whole new way of being. This concept is what Marx talked of. It's when we will learn to cooperate willingly, because we learn it's the only way. It's not about where a group of people force us all to cooperate. At this emerging stage, life will take on a new meaning, and the growth we will acquire solving these existential dilemmas will enable us to elaborate on very different and very necessary and more lateral, rather than hierarchical systems. As with cooperation, the outcome will be win/win across the board. Like others through history, I can handle if this comes to fruition in 50 years or in 200. We are seeing benefits right now, for sure.
    As for the Mayan calendar - it couldn't very well account for eternity, so it had to end sometime. Personally, I think it has more in common with Y2k than some sort of supernatural prescience.
    Why couldn't it account for eternity? I'm not all that up on the Mayan calendar, so I don't understand.

    The thing with the Mayan calendar is that their whole way of looking at and charting day to day was entirely different than our calendar. We are very bound to time and linear and logical things, and they were bound to a very different perception set, from what I understand.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    butters wrote:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_religious_prophecies

    is the proper link, my bad

    do a search for the 'Great Disappointment' as well

    Looking through history I see a common pattern of:

    1 - prophecy movement
    2 - prophecy failure
    3 - backlash (though sometimes cult leaders avoid it by making new stuff up)
    4 - everyone forgets and does it again

    A recent example is Y2K

    Some of my friends really thought things were happening, with Y2K, and the year 2000 etc. Ask em about it now and they tell me to shut up
    Thanks for the link. The key about our errors in judgment, such as with Y2K, is that we cannot dispute what huge lessons we've learned. In psychology, they've identified spirals of human development--where we come full circle on a subject, and then we progress to a similar issue on a higher level of awareness. What happens is we learn lessons and progress. Then we go on and come into a similar learning experience on a bigger scale, where we must relearn a very similar but different lesson. And further on, to greater and greater degrees. Each time our awareness goes higher and becomes more expansive, like the loops on a spiral. I think the key is to consciously recognize what we've developed out of our growth experiences. Otherwise, we merely grow unconsciously, without understanding, and there's a lot more pain and resistance that way.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    angelica wrote:
    To me the symbols of darkness that we see in our views, whether back in 1942 or whether now, or as they vary from person to person are equal.
    Subjectively, yes, I agree. My problems are always the worst problems because they are mine. Also, nothing can be done to stop the travesties of the past - we can't go back and stop the holocaust, for example - but if continuing worry about our current state helps keep things like the holocaust from happening again, I'm all for it. What I don't want, and I see it in end-times thinking, is a surrender to the horrors of the world because "it's prophesy. Nothing can be done to stop it."
    angelica wrote:
    Objectively speaking, meaning besides all kinds of subjective personal stories that tell of horror and mayhem, I agree, we are progressing in a general sense. And that's kind of where I'm going with this. When we resolve our existential dilemmas--our personal and collective battles with good/bad, we progress to the next level/stage. We evolve.

    Ultimately, though, I'm starting to see that as we do this, we are reaching the peak--we are reaching a level foreseen by many through time. It is the level where we are existentially challenged to grow within in order to be able to live in true cooperation. It's evolving at this time in order to accomodate our global reach with technology, trade, etc. Yes there is fallout, as with any evolution. Ultimately, though, in human developmental levels this is charted--that once we reach a certain level as individuals and groups, we have learned to get along with anyone. This is at the higher levels of human development known at this time. This is because we've learned how to truly to cooperate. Until individuals reach this level, they continue to battle back and forth over "right/wrong". It's merely from the views in the stages preceding cooperation that we feel we'll always have conflict and separation--because we cannot see beyond the conflict we have internalized when we have not resolved it. So, now, existentially, we're being called to this, and as we progress and meet the challenge, we will move into a whole new way of being. This concept is what Marx talked of. It's when we will learn to cooperate willingly, because we learn it's the only way. It's not about where a group of people force us all to cooperate. At this emerging stage, life will take on a new meaning, and the growth we will acquire solving these existential dilemmas will enable us to elaborate on very different and very necessary and more lateral, rather than hierarchical systems. As with cooperation, the outcome will be win/win across the board. Like others through history, I can handle if this comes to fruition in 50 years or in 200. We are seeing benefits right now, for sure.
    With peaks come slopes. Even if we reach this level of cooperation, it won't last forever. In fact, I don't think it could last forever. One earthquake, one well placed hurricane, one out of control pandemic, and we'll realize that the strife that's plagued humanity since it's beginning - that's plagued all life since it's beginning - is still there. Humans get notoriously irrational when faced with things beyond their control - and just about everything is beyond their control. To make a bad pun, enlightenment is like all light - it can and will be switched off/burn out.
    angelica wrote:
    Why couldn't it account for eternity? I'm not all that up on the Mayan calendar, so I don't understand.

    The thing with the Mayan calendar is that their whole way of looking at and charting day to day was entirely different than our calendar. We are very bound to time and linear and logical things, and they were bound to a very different perception set, from what I understand.
    If I'm not mistaken, and it's entirely possible I am, the Mayan calendar isn't cyclical like ours is (January 1st comes around every year). Rather, I think it's a "straight line" (though I think it resembles more of a spiral). When you measure time that way, you have to stop at some point. Otherwise, people would still be at work carving it.

    Here's a joke, but it pretty much sums up why I believe the Mayan calendar ends in 2012:
    http://www.anthroblogs.org/nomadicthoughts/archives/maya_cartoon.JPG
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    RainDog wrote:
    Subjectively, yes, I agree. My problems are always the worst problems because they are mine. Also, nothing can be done to stop the travesties of the past - we can't go back and stop the holocaust, for example - but if continuing worry about our current state helps keep things like the holocaust from happening again, I'm all for it. What I don't want, and I see it in end-times thinking, is a surrender to the horrors of the world because "it's prophesy. Nothing can be done to stop it."
    I would say being aware of the fullness of a situation helps us deal with it in a balanced, adaptive way. I would say worrying about it indicates we have unresolved issues that are emotional, within, and that we are looking through a fear lens, which is objectively unrealistic, and is rather about our own inner existential issues, which we've yet to resolve. This is why as we rise to these challenges, it is necessary for us all to realize how we are contributing to the problems before us, in order to figure out how to contribute to solutions, instead.

    With peaks come slopes. Even if we reach this level of cooperation, it won't last forever. In fact, I don't think it could last forever. One earthquake, one well placed hurricane, one out of control pandemic, and we'll realize that the strife that's plagued humanity since it's beginning - that's plagued all life since it's beginning - is still there. Humans get notoriously irrational when faced with things beyond their control - and just about everything is beyond their control. To make a bad pun, enlightenment is like all light - it can and will be switched off/burn out.
    According to human development, once someone reaches beyond the numerous either/or phases of development, beyond the many "I'm right/you are wrong" levels, they come to a new place. There remains conflicts and all kinds of issues, but they are dealt with differently, in increasingly cooperative ways from thereon in. Certainly it progresses with trial and error, and two steps forward, one back as always, meaning it feels balanced between positive and negative, but the general cooperation is very different than the earlier phases of one up/one down.

    Each developmental stage, as we leave one level and move towards the next, our centre of balance is somewhat precarious, between stages. However the progression continues, and as we develop to where our centre of balance is at a level of learned and understood ingrained respect, boundary, cooperation, etc., within, we may regress somewhat here and there, or progress, too, but we do not regress back to earlier stages of one-up/one-down. We are centered at a new level, no matter what happens. That doesn't mean we're not devasted if our loved one is swalled up in a Tsunami, it's just that we deal with it consciously, rather than project our inner unrecognized dynamics all over others. We own our issues, and are self-contained, while being interactive.
    If I'm not mistaken, and it's entirely possible I am, the Mayan calendar isn't cyclical like ours is (January 1st comes around every year). Rather, I think it's a "straight line" (though I think it resembles more of a spiral). When you measure time that way, you have to stop at some point. Otherwise, people would still be at work carving it.

    Here's a joke, but it pretty much sums up why I believe the Mayan calendar ends in 2012:
    http://www.anthroblogs.org/nomadicthoughts/archives/maya_cartoon.JPG
    Okay, I see what you're saying and you may be right. I also tend to believe what it symbolizes as well, beyond it's literal structure. It'll be interesting to see play out.

    I in no way believe we are coming to the end of the world. I do believe we are coming to the end of the world as we know it, and we'll be fine...in general. However, within the generality, there will be many back and forth stages, and we are on the cusp of potentially blowing ourselves up, so the ante is really about as raised as we can imagine in reality. And people are being evolutionarily squeezed out all the time, as has always been the way. We experience fallout for our lacks. It's time that we all start resolving our stuff inside, so that we can actually bring that personal evolution to the table. Prophetic metaphors are not what they seem on the surface, imo. They are upside down and backwards, and not literal--they are meant to appeal to the non-linear logical aspects of our nature within. And interestingly, we reflect our inner processes outward into the physical world all the time, whether it's exercising our demons, or actualizing our potential.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    angelica wrote:
    I'm looking for some insights into the "Revelations" of the bible. I've heard people say we are going through an/the apolcalypse now with all the darkness in the world. We are going through the end of times, so it's been said.

    As we segue into this new worldwide global consciousness, and usher in the true spirit of humanity, what I'm wondering, does anyone know how this may or may not fit with the biblical prophesies and "Revelations"? I am not very biblically aware.

    my understanding of christianity is that they would never condone such a new age interpretation of revelation. revelation is about jesus coming to earth to kick some fucking ass and give sinners their comeuppance. the betterment of humanity is not what christianity is about. we're already a lost cause from their perspective, and it isn't until god gets his genocide on that we might emerge ok in heaven.

    it's kinda fucked up that according to revelation, the peaceful golden age is a work of the anti-christ/devil. not much incentive to work for peace is it? it also implies that the way of god is violence and peacemakers are devils.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    my understanding of christianity is that they would never condone such a new age interpretation of revelation. revelation is about jesus coming to earth to kick some fucking ass and give sinners their comeuppance. the betterment of humanity is not what christianity is about. we're already a lost cause from their perspective, and it isn't until god gets his genocide on that we might emerge ok in heaven.

    it's kinda fucked up that according to revelation, the peaceful golden age is a work of the anti-christ/devil. not much incentive to work for peace is it? it also implies that the way of god is violence and peacemakers are devils.
    The thing is that double speak does not hold up in any situation, ever. So, it's easy to see through it for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. ie: peace is evil; Killing is Godly. These can never be justified. The trick is to understand the truth and to work for it, and let those with gnashing teeth continue with their onslaughts--eventually, they fall from one's vision. Illusions cannot sustain themselves in the realm of truth.

    In our society, the most general beliefs are diametrically opposed to the truth. Christianity does acknowledge this to a degree, although many Christians may miss this in terms of being generally conscious of it: they recognize they are flawed sinners (thereby in error and entirely fallible) and are only saved through Jesus. And ultimately, they are still to be held to account for everything they do. And yet, Christians, and people from ALL walks of life continue to live from the flawed, "sinning" perspective, perpetuating this lack of clarity around us as "normal" to the degree of attempting justify this lack, over and over. It's a problem of the human ego. The only way to get beyond this is to move beyond the ego to the Self, which is an inner journey.

    This is a split that occurs from living from "belief" rather than coming from experience and "knowing" and BEing.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
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