Have you talked to many people who've worked with these Iraqi forces? You should try it, it's an eye-opener. I don't think it's us who doesn't understand the world, pal.
i would love to hear more for the people working with the iraqi forces. becuase that's news. unfrotunately, to the drive by media, and most posters here, death tolls are news. as far as the not understanding the world comment, it goes to the heart of this thread. most of you cannot get past your hatred of bush (not to mention reagan). You people are pissed at the success of capitalism. You are pissed that we have not followed old europe, and you are fixated on old economic divisions which is really unfrotunate, because new divisions are arising, and you will not be on board until it's too late.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
i would love to hear more for the people working with the iraqi forces. becuase that's news. unfrotunately, to the drive by media, and most posters here, death tolls are news. as far as the not understanding the world comment, it goes to the heart of this thread. most of you cannot get past your hatred of bush (not to mention reagan). You people are pissed at the success of capitalism. You are pissed that we have not followed old europe, and you are fixated on old economic divisions which is really unfrotunate, because new divisions are arising, and you will not be on board until it's too late.
Oh yes, capitalism is such a rip-roaring success. That's why we're so much healthier than our European counterparts .... longer life expectancy, lower infant mortality rates, lower rates of teenage pregnancy, lower crime rate ... you know, all the things that make up a healthy society.
Oh, wait .... nevermind that.
Anyway, I've talked to people who have spent time attempting to train these Iraqi troops, and let me just say that they don't share your optimism that they'll be in control of themselves any time in the near future, much less anything else.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
ok, if you don't understand the definition of winning, then seriously, you have to take the blinders off.
if you honestly believe there is no plan for victory, take the blinders off.
the plan has been all along is to train the iraqi forces so that they can take control. if you honestly don't know that...sorry, you're not smart.
unfortunately, the drive by media has you and your ilk hook line and sinker. it's all about bush. yet you can't see the big picture. I don't believe you people understand the world as it actually exists, and that's unfortunate.
i will answer your points as you have laid out, sorry but you call me out then i am going to reply.
1- i understand the defintion of winning as achieving the 4 items that bushco has said in variation over the past 3 years but have yet to come to any sort of fruition. what are the official criteria for victory????? i have heard a combination of the following 4. they have changed focus a number of times but my most recent memory tells me they are defeat saddam, check. find and eliminate WMDs? where the fuck are they??? defeat the insurgency?? hardly has happened yet. allow iraqi forces to take over security....has hardly happened as they get owned by the hundreds on a daily basis by the very insurgents they are charged with suppressing. and stabilize the middle east, which will never happen, especially with an american trying to dictate policy to a bunch of middle easterners who could care less. so as i see it we have achieved one of four for a nice .250 average. not even enough to get you on an all star team in baseball anymore, let alone gain you the respect of the world. my blinders are off and i am seeing quie clearly thank you. i would ask you to remove yours and give me some actual goals that we have met. i am willing to accept any bullshit propaganda here at this point so give it your best shot, as we should all be grasping at straws to prove any sort of success.
2- if there was a plan for victory wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that we would have already achieved victory in less time than it took to finish WWII? maybe its me but after bush declared "mission accomplished" its like the people in charge of the war have been on vacation. they forgot to tell the insurgents that we won and that they should cash in their chips.
3- if that was the plan then i am sorry that it failed. i was expecting something a little better from all of the chickenhawks in this administration. if you think that this is possible and that it will be worked out then maybe it is you that is not smart. why should they take care of the mess we made? its like we are saying "sorry we destroyed your infrastructure and our companies are going to rebuild at a cost of 7 times what it would cost to pay an iraqi company but its ok. the us will pay for it so you will be indebted to us for the next 100 years."
4- maybe it is you that does not see the big picture. it is unfortunate that you are actually buying this shit that is being purported by the bush white house. i read more than the liberal media thank you. i am a free thinker and i know when we are fucked and when we are not. right now we are fucked. billions of dollars spent, hundreds of thousands of lives lost and for what? we have still not secured the country. militias and insurgent attacks are all we hear about. they are jockying for control of the country while we sit on our hands trying to figure out the next move. we have failed and we have created a whole new generation of terrorists that will strive to kill both my kids and your kids. how do you feel about that? have we done the correct thing? i say no, and nobody will change my mind even if we discover a silo containing 1000 nuclear warheads pointing at washington dc. we intervened in some shit that we had no business sticking our big noses into and we look like fools to the rest of the world. if you can still support this debacle then i feel sorry for you. but then what else can be expected from a pro-war person that has the word hawk in his screen name?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Oh yes, capitalism is such a rip-roaring success. That's why we're so much healthier than our European counterparts .... longer life expectancy, lower infant mortality rates, lower rates of teenage pregnancy, lower crime rate ... you know, all the things that make up a healthy society.
Oh, wait .... nevermind that.
Anyway, I've talked to people who have spent time attempting to train these Iraqi troops, and let me just say that they don't share your optimism that they'll be in control of themselves any time in the near future, much less anything else.
Capitalism sure has been good to me. I used to live in Europe, hated every second. As far as training Iraqi's, it's a tough road, I used to do it. But I swear only time can teach these guys correctly, so my advice is to be patient.
i'm sorry, could you repeat that? it's hard to understand you when you've got rush's cock in your mouth.
Is that how Dems debate? It got quiet all of a sudden? I want to hear more about this guys sexual relations with "Rush". Come on buddy, don't stop now.
I'm not ready to sit back and call america a loser just so I can point at republicans and say I told ya so.
its not about winning and loosing.
I would like to see a stable Iraq with a government that represents all factions living in peace for one common goal.
I want the terrorists defeated. being any foreign fighters trying to undermine the government and killing American troops.
is this possible? I hope so. but it wont be possible if we leave next week. there is still work to be done.
Did you want to see a stable Iraq before the war? Then why do you care now? The Iraq war was never about defeating terrorists so why is it a goal now? Is it because the US started the terrorist problem in Iraq? I really don't think that you understand what a terrorist is. These are people who believe that something is a threat to their way of life and they think that terrorism is their only venue to get heard. These aren't people who just like killing for the sake of killing people. You have just had the "bad guy in a mask with a bomb" image pumped into you for the last 5 years and now you believe it. There is good that can come from this war and it has to do with bringing democracy to the middle east. It could be a good thing, but farce of this "cause du jour" of this war is that the people of the Middle East have been ruled by iron fists since the dawn of time. To think that you can waltz into one of those countries and feather in a democracy in a couple of years is laughable. Establishing a true democracy in the middle east will never happen in our lifetime. It really can't happen when the people who are trying to bring the democracy in care more about money and oil than they care about the well-being of the people involved. And you can't honestly think that Bush gives one shit about the people of Iraq or the thousands of people who have been killed by his brilliant decision making (because he is the decider). The whole goal of that war was to make a few rich guys even richer and to that extent he has succeeded. I still can't fathom that anybody supports anthing that this loser has ever done.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
Did you want to see a stable Iraq before the war? Then why do you care now? The Iraq war was never about defeating terrorists so why is it a goal now? Is it because the US started the terrorist problem in Iraq? I really don't think that you understand what a terrorist is. These are people who believe that something is a threat to their way of life and they think that terrorism is their only venue to get heard. These aren't people who just like killing for the sake of killing people. You have just had the "bad guy in a mask with a bomb" image pumped into you for the last 5 years and now you believe it. There is good that can come from this war and it has to do with bringing democracy to the middle east. It could be a good thing, but farce of this "cause du jour" of this war is that the people of the Middle East have been ruled by iron fists since the dawn of time. To think that you can waltz into one of those countries and feather in a democracy in a couple of years is laughable. Establishing a true democracy in the middle east will never happen in our lifetime. It really can't happen when the people who are trying to bring the democracy in care more about money and oil than they care about the well-being of the people involved. And you can't honestly think that Bush gives one shit about the people of Iraq or the thousands of people who have been killed by his brilliant decision making (because he is the decider). The whole goal of that war was to make a few rich guys even richer and to that extent he has succeeded. I still can't fathom that anybody supports anthing that this loser has ever done.
I support the war in Iraq, I understand your having a hard time "fathoming" this, but some people ie Iraqi Americans like myself, see the good that's grown from the shit storm. Do you support Afghanistan?
I support the war in Iraq, I understand your having a hard time "fathoming" this, but some people ie Iraqi Americans like myself, see the good that's grown from the shit storm. Do you support Afghanistan?
I support Afghanistan to an extent. The US should have focused more on Afghanistan after 9/11 as it was the heart of the big bad Al Qaeda monster and the "terrorists". The problem with Afghanistan is that it has nothing of value to Americans other than heroin. Being an Iraqi-American, you should support the war because there is good that may come from it. However, the people who started the war don't give a shit about any Iraqi or Iraqi-American and they could care less about really bringing peace and democracy to Iraq. Peace and democracy for Iraqis was the 3rd or 4th public reason for the war. Shouldn't the welfare of Iraqis have been the only reason for invading? Finding WMDs and killing Saddam Hussein were apparently much more important than helping the Iraqi people.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
"All Americans will be at Iran's mercy then when it comes to oil. Think about that."
this is the quote out of the whole interview i find most foul. this is the kind of talk that leads to war (and is consistent with his rhetoric preceding the Iraq war). This guy is a war monger plain and simple. there is blood on his hands...
“Kept in a small bowl, the goldfish will remain small. With more space, the fish can grow double, triple, or quadruple its size.”
-Big Fish
i would love to hear more for the people working with the iraqi forces. becuase that's news. unfrotunately, to the drive by media, and most posters here, death tolls are news. as far as the not understanding the world comment, it goes to the heart of this thread. most of you cannot get past your hatred of bush (not to mention reagan). You people are pissed at the success of capitalism. You are pissed that we have not followed old europe, and you are fixated on old economic divisions which is really unfrotunate, because new divisions are arising, and you will not be on board until it's too late.
There's plenty of news -- in the newspapers, not on TV -- about how badly the training of Iraqi security forces is going. It's going badly because the sectarian militias are infiltrating the security forces and becoming death squads. And that's a problem that doesn't have anything to do with capitalism (which I happen to be a big fan of, as long as it's properly regulated). That's a problem that we should have anticipated before we went in and tore the country apart.
This might not have been a problem -- if we had sent enough troops to start with; if we had mounted a real counter-insurgency campaign when the insurgency started; if we hadn't disbanded the army; if we could have protected the electric and water plants from insurgent attacks; if someone had paid attention to the post-war planning. All this might have worked, it would have required competent leadership, which we just didn't have going into this.
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
I really don't think that you understand what a terrorist is. These are people who believe that something is a threat to their way of life and they think that terrorism is their only venue to get heard. These aren't people who just like killing for the sake of killing people. You have just had the "bad guy in a mask with a bomb" image pumped into you for the last 5 years and now you believe it.
I understand perfectly what a terrorist is. I''m not talking about the sunnis and shitts killing each other. I'm talking about the foreign fighters, fighting for extreme islam and osama bin laden.
There is good that can come from this war and it has to do with bringing democracy to the middle east. It could be a good thing, but farce of this "cause du jour" of this war is that the people of the Middle East have been ruled by iron fists since the dawn of time. To think that you can waltz into one of those countries and feather in a democracy in a couple of years is laughable. Establishing a true democracy in the middle east will never happen in our lifetime. It really can't happen when the people who are trying to bring the democracy in care more about money and oil than they care about the well-being of the people involved. And you can't honestly think that Bush gives one shit about the people of Iraq or the thousands of people who have been killed by his brilliant decision making (because he is the decider). The whole goal of that war was to make a few rich guys even richer and to that extent he has succeeded. I still can't fathom that anybody supports anthing that this loser has ever done.
sorry you feel that way. I completely disagree. have a wonderful day.
Oh yes, capitalism is such a rip-roaring success. That's why we're so much healthier than our European counterparts .... longer life expectancy, lower infant mortality rates, lower rates of teenage pregnancy, lower crime rate ... you know, all the things that make up a healthy society.
Oh, wait .... nevermind that.
Anyway, I've talked to people who have spent time attempting to train these Iraqi troops, and let me just say that they don't share your optimism that they'll be in control of themselves any time in the near future, much less anything else.
On your capitalism take. seriously, you can't win there. what's the poll on people who hate their lives in europe vs. the USA?
that's the thing that i hate about liberalism. you people want to spread depression equally. you want to spread misery to everyone. you want to squash hope. those of us on the right are optomistic, and want to spread individualism to people. that's what American exceptionalism is all about.
as far as your anectdotal iraqi evidence goes, that's great. I know some guy too. whatever. wouldn't it be nice if we heard these stories through the drive by media?
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
luckily, it's not a "fact" that idiotic people blindly follow fox news and lap up what o'riley has to say.
that's the equivalent of some right winger coming on here saying all you people lap up what eddie vedder incoherently babbles.
the truth is, the people that are most interested in politics choose our own news sources. you maynot view oriley as news, but i don't really give much credibility to npr, cnn, or real idiots like eddie vedder, al franken, or jon stewart. well, ok, jon stewart is pretty sharp...but seriously, eddie vedder is probably the dumbest human being i've ever heard speak. granted, nancy pelosi isn't far behind. partisans, which most of us are, or ideologues, whatever, are able to choose our news sources.
in some utopia, there is such a thing as an objective news source, but in reality, there isn't. the beauty of our system is that there are a variety of viewpoints out there that we can listen to.
Choose your news sources all you want. But it might be wise to make sure they are actually 'news' and not pure bullshit. People post on here all the time about how Faux news isn't meant to be actual news but simply commentary and only opinion pieces. So when so many of you gullible, misled viewers are so eager to pick up the pom poms and go along with what ever these creeps spout out...yeah, it creates a problem. It's not about which side you may lean to. It's about reporting the news accurately and truthfully without distorting it to fit your agenda. You can bring up cnn, npr and whoever else you want but the fact is none of them misrepresent themselves as unbiased news and twist the facts any where close to the level Oreilly and his Fox counterparts do. And also they choose to conduct themselves with childlike contempt and distain for opposing views as if they are supposed to be the enemies of our country. name one, just one, other network who conducts themselves in this manner. So yeah, it gets under my skin that so many people buy right into this crap and they deserve the 'idiot' label. And why should we be surprised to find millions of idiots here with education being so high on the priority list. There is no beauty in lying to the public.
And how is Ed an idiot? Please point out how you formed this opinion. Have you ever read the amazing lyrics he writes? How many idiots do you know who can express themselves so brilliantly? Just because he is shy and not so good at public speaking does not make him an idiot by a long shot and if it does then put me down on the idiot list, as well because I stumble all over myself when under the pressure of an audience or even a small group. Shyness does not equal dumb.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
luckily, it's not a "fact" that idiotic people blindly follow fox news and lap up what o'riley has to say.
that's the equivalent of some right winger coming on here saying all you people lap up what eddie vedder incoherently babbles.
the truth is, the people that are most interested in politics choose our own news sources. you maynot view oriley as news, but i don't really give much credibility to npr, cnn, or real idiots like eddie vedder, al franken, or jon stewart. well, ok, jon stewart is pretty sharp...but seriously, eddie vedder is probably the dumbest human being i've ever heard speak. granted, nancy pelosi isn't far behind. partisans, which most of us are, or ideologues, whatever, are able to choose our news sources.
in some utopia, there is such a thing as an objective news source, but in reality, there isn't. the beauty of our system is that there are a variety of viewpoints out there that we can listen to.
there is a difference between a viewpoint and a lie/distortion and opinion journalism and news, which is what the network is called - Fox NEWS, not Fox Op/Ed. in fact Hannity & Colmes used to have the word NEWS on the screen either from the set or some graphic up to 7 times at once!
i hope most ppl aren't stupid enough to play the partisan distraction game
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I understand perfectly what a terrorist is. I''m not talking about the sunnis and shitts killing each other. I'm talking about the foreign fighters, fighting for extreme islam and osama bin laden.
sorry you feel that way. I completely disagree. have a wonderful day.
Come pull a sheet over my eyes,
So I can sleep tonight,
Despite what I've seen today.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
Choose your news sources all you want. But it might be wise to make sure they are actually 'news' and not pure bullshit. People post on here all the time about how Faux news isn't meant to be actual news but simply commentary and only opinion pieces. So when so many of you gullible, misled viewers are so eager to pick up the pom poms and go along with what ever these creeps spout out...yeah, it creates a problem. It's not about which side you may lean to. It's about reporting the news accurately and truthfully without distorting it to fit your agenda. You can bring up cnn, npr and whoever else you want but the fact is none of them misrepresent themselves as unbiased news and twist the facts any where close to the level Oreilly and his Fox counterparts do. And also they choose to conduct themselves with childlike contempt and distain for opposing views as if they are supposed to be the enemies of our country. name one, just one, other network who conducts themselves in this manner. So yeah, it gets under my skin that so many people buy right into this crap and they deserve the 'idiot' label. And why should we be surprised to find millions of idiots here with education being so high on the priority list. There is no beauty in lying to the public.
And how is Ed an idiot? Please point out how you formed this opinion. Have you ever read the amazing lyrics he writes? How many idiots do you know who can express themselves so brilliantly? Just because he is shy and not so good at public speaking does not make him an idiot by a long shot and if it does then put me down on the idiot list, as well because I stumble all over myself when under the pressure of an audience or even a small group. Shyness does not equal dumb.
It's your opinion that CNN and NPR don't misrepresent what they are? Why do you think they are more cedible than Fox? That's my point. I'm on the right, I view FOX as having more credibility. Why do you consider CNN pure facts, and not utter bullshit. I consider both of the utter bullshit.
Again, I give viewers credit and don't think they are mindless bafoons. we can choose our own news sources.
As for naming other networks? NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, NY TIMES. How many people from FOX news have been fired for airing false stories or were forced into retirement because of a made up story? Fox's record is pretty good in that regard.
Ed is an idiot when it comes to politics for the same reason you think people who watch (and are apparently somehow brainwashed by) Fox news are idiots. Because I view people who view people like Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky as "the truth" as completely off the chart when it comes to political ideology. But I don't think they're brainwashed. I think they are well informed people with whom I disagree with. I think he's an idiot because he truly believes that people who sign up for the military are duped, and their families are a bunch of duped hayseeds. Yeah, the lyrics to Army Reserve are VERY thoughtfull. Basically, I think he's an idiot because of his arrogance, and the way he (and a lot of people, regardless of ideology) puts forth the idea that people who disagree with them are completely uninformed and are somehow brainwashed. Only idiots think that they know the truth and have somehow broken the shackles of the brainwashers.
Maybe idiot wasn't the right word, I guess I should have used pompus asshole.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
there is a difference between a viewpoint and a lie/distortion and opinion journalism and news, which is what the network is called - Fox NEWS, not Fox Op/Ed. in fact Hannity & Colmes used to have the word NEWS on the screen either from the set or some graphic up to 7 times at once!
i hope most ppl aren't stupid enough to play the partisan distraction game
What I view as a distortion I'm guessing will be a lot different than what you view as a distortion.
I don't honestly believe that there is such a thing as unbiased news. But what I do know is that you have three groups of people (in this country, anyway b/c of the two party system). Conservatives, Liberals, and a bunch of people that are more interested in Lindsey, Brittny, and Paris. The latter (about 50%) don't vote. The others (around 25% left, 25% right) care a lot about politics and are easily "offended" (not sure that's the best word) if they think world events are being distorted. The people that watch Hannity / Beck (my favorite!!!) / Ingraham / Limbaugh listen because they agree with them. WHat, 16 million people listen to Lumbaugh? That is like 1/4 of Bush's vote. Same thing for the left, A lot of people here give credibility to Air America, PMSNBC, etc, but how much of Kerry's vote does that make up? My point is..is that the people that watch news at all are well informed and not likely to be swayed either way. It's more likely that we selectively choose stations that we trust.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
As for naming other networks? NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, NY TIMES. How many people from FOX news have been fired for airing false stories or were forced into retirement because of a made up story? Fox's record is pretty good in that regard.
That's the whole point. They encourage that kind of conduct at Fox.
Fox completely disregards factual information and history moreso than the other networks. The other networks mostly just don't cover important things in depth if at all and don't bother with the hard hitting questions and stories. Fox outright lies and misleads.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That's the whole point. They encourage that kind of conduct at Fox.
Fox completely disregards factual information and history moreso than the other networks. The other networks mostly just don't cover important things in depth if at all and don't bother with the hard hitting questions and stories. Fox outright lies and misleads.
Example?
Mine are Dan Rather and that dope from the NY Times that was making up stories.
How about the coverage of Limbaugh vs. MJ FOX (talk about a liar). How about those lies, when Fox is not questioned about asserting that the position of cloning offers more hope than not favoring cloning. Do you know how many people actually think Limbaugh made fun of him? The only people who know that he didn't are those that actually listened to his show. How about the loop that PMSNBC made to make it look like he was mocking him? How about the coverage of William Jefferson vs. Mark Foley? How about the coverage of Trent Lott vs. Grand Wizard Byrd, who uttered the n word repeatedly in 2001? How about the attacks on George Allen? The Washington Post was "fair and balanced?"
Fox News may be biased, but that doesn't mean they are lying any more than the "mainstream" media.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Mine are Dan Rather and that dope from the NY Times that was making up stories.
How about the coverage of Limbaugh vs. MJ FOX (talk about a liar). How about those lies, when Fox is not questioned about asserting that the position of cloning offers more hope than not favoring cloning. Do you know how many people actually think Limbaugh made fun of him? The only people who know that he didn't are those that actually listened to his show. How about the loop that PMSNBC made to make it look like he was mocking him? How about the coverage of William Jefferson vs. Mark Foley? How about the coverage of Trent Lott vs. Grand Wizard Byrd, who uttered the n word repeatedly in 2001? How about the attacks on George Allen? The Washington Post was "fair and balanced?"
Fox News may be biased, but that doesn't mean they are lying any more than the "mainstream" media.
Number 1 those are all opinion type stories based on someone remarks. I think you know I'm talking about real news, world news, foreign and national policy. You are only bringing up distraction pieces that I will be the first to admit clog the news networks and take air time away from the really important events and stories in the world.
Number 2, these are partisan opinion examples. Fox does these, as well, on top of the lying.
Most network news is shit but Fox is on a completely different level of spewing utter bullshit.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Number 1 those are all opinion type stories based on someone remarks. I think you know I'm talking about real news, world news, foreign and national policy. You are only bringing up distraction pieces that I will be the first to admit clog the news networks and take air time away from the really important events and stories in the world.
Number 2, these are partisan opinion examples. Fox does these, as well, on top of the lying.
Most network news is shit but Fox is on a completely different level of spewing utter bullshit.
eh, i disagree. I like a lot of their shows. but I agree that all news organizations could do a better job of covering world events.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Mine are Dan Rather and that dope from the NY Times that was making up stories.
How about the coverage of Limbaugh vs. MJ FOX (talk about a liar). How about those lies, when Fox is not questioned about asserting that the position of cloning offers more hope than not favoring cloning. Do you know how many people actually think Limbaugh made fun of him? The only people who know that he didn't are those that actually listened to his show. How about the loop that PMSNBC made to make it look like he was mocking him? How about the coverage of William Jefferson vs. Mark Foley? How about the coverage of Trent Lott vs. Grand Wizard Byrd, who uttered the n word repeatedly in 2001? How about the attacks on George Allen? The Washington Post was "fair and balanced?"
Fox News may be biased, but that doesn't mean they are lying any more than the "mainstream" media.
how about when they kept saying kerry said 'more foriegn leaders like me' even after the audio tape surfaced proving he never said that??
as for the new york times...didn't the publisher's nephew work there and do things like put his name on cia memos and publish them as if they were articles he wrote instead of the cia?
and cnn? they used to hire interns who happened to work for the army intel. during kosovo the army spokesman stated:
"psyops personnel, soldiers and officers have been working in CNN's headquarters in Atlanta through our program 'Training with Industry'. " Major Thomas Collins of the US Army News Service continued: "They worked as regular employees of CNN. Conceivably, they would have worked on stories during the Kosovo war. They helped in the production of news."
there is no real news from the mainstream. didn't glenn beck say the other week we needed to kill the head of iran and iranians b/c they want to kill us so we have to do it first? i can see why he's your favorite.
limbaugh did lie about fox...he said he was faking it during the ad and probably didn't take his medication on purpose...he also said if he was wrong he'd apologize...he was proven wrong, it was proven he WAS on his meds and instead of apologizing he cried about democrats exploiting michael j fox and ppl like him....so he wasn't making fun of him...the way he was twitching around seemed like mocking him to me...
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Comments
i would love to hear more for the people working with the iraqi forces. becuase that's news. unfrotunately, to the drive by media, and most posters here, death tolls are news. as far as the not understanding the world comment, it goes to the heart of this thread. most of you cannot get past your hatred of bush (not to mention reagan). You people are pissed at the success of capitalism. You are pissed that we have not followed old europe, and you are fixated on old economic divisions which is really unfrotunate, because new divisions are arising, and you will not be on board until it's too late.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Oh, wait .... nevermind that.
Anyway, I've talked to people who have spent time attempting to train these Iraqi troops, and let me just say that they don't share your optimism that they'll be in control of themselves any time in the near future, much less anything else.
i will answer your points as you have laid out, sorry but you call me out then i am going to reply.
1- i understand the defintion of winning as achieving the 4 items that bushco has said in variation over the past 3 years but have yet to come to any sort of fruition. what are the official criteria for victory????? i have heard a combination of the following 4. they have changed focus a number of times but my most recent memory tells me they are defeat saddam, check. find and eliminate WMDs? where the fuck are they??? defeat the insurgency?? hardly has happened yet. allow iraqi forces to take over security....has hardly happened as they get owned by the hundreds on a daily basis by the very insurgents they are charged with suppressing. and stabilize the middle east, which will never happen, especially with an american trying to dictate policy to a bunch of middle easterners who could care less. so as i see it we have achieved one of four for a nice .250 average. not even enough to get you on an all star team in baseball anymore, let alone gain you the respect of the world. my blinders are off and i am seeing quie clearly thank you. i would ask you to remove yours and give me some actual goals that we have met. i am willing to accept any bullshit propaganda here at this point so give it your best shot, as we should all be grasping at straws to prove any sort of success.
2- if there was a plan for victory wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that we would have already achieved victory in less time than it took to finish WWII? maybe its me but after bush declared "mission accomplished" its like the people in charge of the war have been on vacation. they forgot to tell the insurgents that we won and that they should cash in their chips.
3- if that was the plan then i am sorry that it failed. i was expecting something a little better from all of the chickenhawks in this administration. if you think that this is possible and that it will be worked out then maybe it is you that is not smart. why should they take care of the mess we made? its like we are saying "sorry we destroyed your infrastructure and our companies are going to rebuild at a cost of 7 times what it would cost to pay an iraqi company but its ok. the us will pay for it so you will be indebted to us for the next 100 years."
4- maybe it is you that does not see the big picture. it is unfortunate that you are actually buying this shit that is being purported by the bush white house. i read more than the liberal media thank you. i am a free thinker and i know when we are fucked and when we are not. right now we are fucked. billions of dollars spent, hundreds of thousands of lives lost and for what? we have still not secured the country. militias and insurgent attacks are all we hear about. they are jockying for control of the country while we sit on our hands trying to figure out the next move. we have failed and we have created a whole new generation of terrorists that will strive to kill both my kids and your kids. how do you feel about that? have we done the correct thing? i say no, and nobody will change my mind even if we discover a silo containing 1000 nuclear warheads pointing at washington dc. we intervened in some shit that we had no business sticking our big noses into and we look like fools to the rest of the world. if you can still support this debacle then i feel sorry for you. but then what else can be expected from a pro-war person that has the word hawk in his screen name?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
You just cost me a coffee cleanup after I spit it out reading this !!
when you guys are done with your circle jerk, feel free to add to the discussion
You told me, buddy.
Capitalism sure has been good to me. I used to live in Europe, hated every second. As far as training Iraqi's, it's a tough road, I used to do it. But I swear only time can teach these guys correctly, so my advice is to be patient.
Is that how Dems debate? It got quiet all of a sudden? I want to hear more about this guys sexual relations with "Rush". Come on buddy, don't stop now.
Did you want to see a stable Iraq before the war? Then why do you care now? The Iraq war was never about defeating terrorists so why is it a goal now? Is it because the US started the terrorist problem in Iraq? I really don't think that you understand what a terrorist is. These are people who believe that something is a threat to their way of life and they think that terrorism is their only venue to get heard. These aren't people who just like killing for the sake of killing people. You have just had the "bad guy in a mask with a bomb" image pumped into you for the last 5 years and now you believe it. There is good that can come from this war and it has to do with bringing democracy to the middle east. It could be a good thing, but farce of this "cause du jour" of this war is that the people of the Middle East have been ruled by iron fists since the dawn of time. To think that you can waltz into one of those countries and feather in a democracy in a couple of years is laughable. Establishing a true democracy in the middle east will never happen in our lifetime. It really can't happen when the people who are trying to bring the democracy in care more about money and oil than they care about the well-being of the people involved. And you can't honestly think that Bush gives one shit about the people of Iraq or the thousands of people who have been killed by his brilliant decision making (because he is the decider). The whole goal of that war was to make a few rich guys even richer and to that extent he has succeeded. I still can't fathom that anybody supports anthing that this loser has ever done.
I support the war in Iraq, I understand your having a hard time "fathoming" this, but some people ie Iraqi Americans like myself, see the good that's grown from the shit storm. Do you support Afghanistan?
I support Afghanistan to an extent. The US should have focused more on Afghanistan after 9/11 as it was the heart of the big bad Al Qaeda monster and the "terrorists". The problem with Afghanistan is that it has nothing of value to Americans other than heroin. Being an Iraqi-American, you should support the war because there is good that may come from it. However, the people who started the war don't give a shit about any Iraqi or Iraqi-American and they could care less about really bringing peace and democracy to Iraq. Peace and democracy for Iraqis was the 3rd or 4th public reason for the war. Shouldn't the welfare of Iraqis have been the only reason for invading? Finding WMDs and killing Saddam Hussein were apparently much more important than helping the Iraqi people.
U.S. Deaths Confirmed By The DoD: 2886
Reported U.S. Deaths Pending DoD Confirmation: 4
Total 2890
this is the quote out of the whole interview i find most foul. this is the kind of talk that leads to war (and is consistent with his rhetoric preceding the Iraq war). This guy is a war monger plain and simple. there is blood on his hands...
-Big Fish
This might not have been a problem -- if we had sent enough troops to start with; if we had mounted a real counter-insurgency campaign when the insurgency started; if we hadn't disbanded the army; if we could have protected the electric and water plants from insurgent attacks; if someone had paid attention to the post-war planning. All this might have worked, it would have required competent leadership, which we just didn't have going into this.
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
Iraq was stable before we got there. people werent free, but it was stable.
because american lives are on the line.
because they are there.
yes
I understand perfectly what a terrorist is. I''m not talking about the sunnis and shitts killing each other. I'm talking about the foreign fighters, fighting for extreme islam and osama bin laden.
sorry you feel that way. I completely disagree. have a wonderful day.
On your capitalism take. seriously, you can't win there. what's the poll on people who hate their lives in europe vs. the USA?
that's the thing that i hate about liberalism. you people want to spread depression equally. you want to spread misery to everyone. you want to squash hope. those of us on the right are optomistic, and want to spread individualism to people. that's what American exceptionalism is all about.
as far as your anectdotal iraqi evidence goes, that's great. I know some guy too. whatever. wouldn't it be nice if we heard these stories through the drive by media?
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Choose your news sources all you want. But it might be wise to make sure they are actually 'news' and not pure bullshit. People post on here all the time about how Faux news isn't meant to be actual news but simply commentary and only opinion pieces. So when so many of you gullible, misled viewers are so eager to pick up the pom poms and go along with what ever these creeps spout out...yeah, it creates a problem. It's not about which side you may lean to. It's about reporting the news accurately and truthfully without distorting it to fit your agenda. You can bring up cnn, npr and whoever else you want but the fact is none of them misrepresent themselves as unbiased news and twist the facts any where close to the level Oreilly and his Fox counterparts do. And also they choose to conduct themselves with childlike contempt and distain for opposing views as if they are supposed to be the enemies of our country. name one, just one, other network who conducts themselves in this manner. So yeah, it gets under my skin that so many people buy right into this crap and they deserve the 'idiot' label. And why should we be surprised to find millions of idiots here with education being so high on the priority list. There is no beauty in lying to the public.
And how is Ed an idiot? Please point out how you formed this opinion. Have you ever read the amazing lyrics he writes? How many idiots do you know who can express themselves so brilliantly? Just because he is shy and not so good at public speaking does not make him an idiot by a long shot and if it does then put me down on the idiot list, as well because I stumble all over myself when under the pressure of an audience or even a small group. Shyness does not equal dumb.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
there is a difference between a viewpoint and a lie/distortion and opinion journalism and news, which is what the network is called - Fox NEWS, not Fox Op/Ed. in fact Hannity & Colmes used to have the word NEWS on the screen either from the set or some graphic up to 7 times at once!
i hope most ppl aren't stupid enough to play the partisan distraction game
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
usa never was a democracy rosie ostupid
http://groups.msn.com/PearlJamNirvana/messages.msnw
Then what the hell are they trying to spread?
Come pull a sheet over my eyes,
So I can sleep tonight,
Despite what I've seen today.
Believe me buddy, I'm the last person you need to show those numbers to.
School Attendance is up 80%
More than 1,500 schools renovated
The Port of Uhm Qasar [sic] renovated so grain can be offloaded faster
An interim constitution has been signed
Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs
Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years
every day were out their, the more money gets pumped into their infastructure.
It's your opinion that CNN and NPR don't misrepresent what they are? Why do you think they are more cedible than Fox? That's my point. I'm on the right, I view FOX as having more credibility. Why do you consider CNN pure facts, and not utter bullshit. I consider both of the utter bullshit.
Again, I give viewers credit and don't think they are mindless bafoons. we can choose our own news sources.
As for naming other networks? NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, NY TIMES. How many people from FOX news have been fired for airing false stories or were forced into retirement because of a made up story? Fox's record is pretty good in that regard.
Ed is an idiot when it comes to politics for the same reason you think people who watch (and are apparently somehow brainwashed by) Fox news are idiots. Because I view people who view people like Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky as "the truth" as completely off the chart when it comes to political ideology. But I don't think they're brainwashed. I think they are well informed people with whom I disagree with. I think he's an idiot because he truly believes that people who sign up for the military are duped, and their families are a bunch of duped hayseeds. Yeah, the lyrics to Army Reserve are VERY thoughtfull. Basically, I think he's an idiot because of his arrogance, and the way he (and a lot of people, regardless of ideology) puts forth the idea that people who disagree with them are completely uninformed and are somehow brainwashed. Only idiots think that they know the truth and have somehow broken the shackles of the brainwashers.
Maybe idiot wasn't the right word, I guess I should have used pompus asshole.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
What I view as a distortion I'm guessing will be a lot different than what you view as a distortion.
I don't honestly believe that there is such a thing as unbiased news. But what I do know is that you have three groups of people (in this country, anyway b/c of the two party system). Conservatives, Liberals, and a bunch of people that are more interested in Lindsey, Brittny, and Paris. The latter (about 50%) don't vote. The others (around 25% left, 25% right) care a lot about politics and are easily "offended" (not sure that's the best word) if they think world events are being distorted. The people that watch Hannity / Beck (my favorite!!!) / Ingraham / Limbaugh listen because they agree with them. WHat, 16 million people listen to Lumbaugh? That is like 1/4 of Bush's vote. Same thing for the left, A lot of people here give credibility to Air America, PMSNBC, etc, but how much of Kerry's vote does that make up? My point is..is that the people that watch news at all are well informed and not likely to be swayed either way. It's more likely that we selectively choose stations that we trust.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
That's the whole point. They encourage that kind of conduct at Fox.
Fox completely disregards factual information and history moreso than the other networks. The other networks mostly just don't cover important things in depth if at all and don't bother with the hard hitting questions and stories. Fox outright lies and misleads.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Example?
Mine are Dan Rather and that dope from the NY Times that was making up stories.
How about the coverage of Limbaugh vs. MJ FOX (talk about a liar). How about those lies, when Fox is not questioned about asserting that the position of cloning offers more hope than not favoring cloning. Do you know how many people actually think Limbaugh made fun of him? The only people who know that he didn't are those that actually listened to his show. How about the loop that PMSNBC made to make it look like he was mocking him? How about the coverage of William Jefferson vs. Mark Foley? How about the coverage of Trent Lott vs. Grand Wizard Byrd, who uttered the n word repeatedly in 2001? How about the attacks on George Allen? The Washington Post was "fair and balanced?"
Fox News may be biased, but that doesn't mean they are lying any more than the "mainstream" media.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Number 1 those are all opinion type stories based on someone remarks. I think you know I'm talking about real news, world news, foreign and national policy. You are only bringing up distraction pieces that I will be the first to admit clog the news networks and take air time away from the really important events and stories in the world.
Number 2, these are partisan opinion examples. Fox does these, as well, on top of the lying.
Most network news is shit but Fox is on a completely different level of spewing utter bullshit.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
eh, i disagree. I like a lot of their shows. but I agree that all news organizations could do a better job of covering world events.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
how about when they kept saying kerry said 'more foriegn leaders like me' even after the audio tape surfaced proving he never said that??
as for the new york times...didn't the publisher's nephew work there and do things like put his name on cia memos and publish them as if they were articles he wrote instead of the cia?
and cnn? they used to hire interns who happened to work for the army intel. during kosovo the army spokesman stated:
"psyops personnel, soldiers and officers have been working in CNN's headquarters in Atlanta through our program 'Training with Industry'. " Major Thomas Collins of the US Army News Service continued: "They worked as regular employees of CNN. Conceivably, they would have worked on stories during the Kosovo war. They helped in the production of news."
there is no real news from the mainstream. didn't glenn beck say the other week we needed to kill the head of iran and iranians b/c they want to kill us so we have to do it first? i can see why he's your favorite.
limbaugh did lie about fox...he said he was faking it during the ad and probably didn't take his medication on purpose...he also said if he was wrong he'd apologize...he was proven wrong, it was proven he WAS on his meds and instead of apologizing he cried about democrats exploiting michael j fox and ppl like him....so he wasn't making fun of him...the way he was twitching around seemed like mocking him to me...
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way