Because Israel is holding approx 10,000 Lebanese prisoners in it's jails, and because Israel is continuing to slaughter Palestinian Muslims.
I'm fairly certain Israel is not holding 10,000 Lebanese prisoners in jail. Certainly there are Lebanese prisoners, but not 10,000 of them. Besides which, please tell me how indiscriminate bombing of civilians is a legitimate means of obtaining the release of prisoners. I was under the impression that attacking civilians to achieve a political aim is defined as terrorism. As for the Palestinians, you are virtually admitting that Hezbollah is using the Palestinians as an excuse to attack Israel. Palestinians are not Lebanese. Their struggle is not Hezbollah's. And even if Hezbollah was motivated by empathy and solidarity with the Palestinians, again, please tell me how attacking civilians is a legitimate means of expressing support?
I have been reading the thread in my lunchbreak and I felt compelled to write in to add my 2 cents..
The military aims to preserve the status quo, ie defend and preserve the current political set-up and must follow political directives in a democratic regime. Exceptions are coup d'etat when the military can be co-opted to overthrow the political regime.
Terrorist groups aim to upset and change the status quo by using violent tactics, because they do not recognise the political authority in power. This has happened for instance when the American colonies fought the British Empire in the seventeenth century: violence was used to gain their political objective of independence. Similarly, supporters of the Zionist ideology used violent tactics against the British who at the time held a protectorate over Palestine, in order to further their objectives of establishing the state of Israel. More recent examples from European history: the radical left terrorism of the 1970s in Italy and less prominently in Germany, which was not successful as the democratic state were able to suppress (not just by using the military) the terrorist movements.
In conclusion I think the objectives of the military and terrorists are opposed, although, of course, the means are the same, armed violence.
Finally, I just wanted to remind that there are huge divisions within the Arab world to consider so one cannot just talk about the Arabs. There is a schism between the Sunni and the Shia muslims. For instance, Hezbollah are Shia muslims. Iran has a majority of Shia muslims. Palestinians instead are Sunni.
Sorry, if my post is long-winded, but I was trying to summarise in a very short time!
I have been reading the thread in my lunchbreak and I felt compelled to write in to add my 2 cents..
The military aims to preserve the status quo, ie defend and preserve the current political set-up and must follow political directives in a democratic regime. Exceptions are coup d'etat when the military can be co-opted to overthrow the political regime.
Terrorist groups aim to upset and change the status quo by using violent tactics, because they do not recognise the political authority in power. This has happened for instance when the American colonies fought the British Empire in the seventeenth century: violence was used to gain their political objective of independence. Similarly, supporters of the Zionist ideology used violent tactics against the British who at the time held a protectorate over Palestine, in order to further their objectives of establishing the state of Israel. More recent examples from European history: the radical left terrorism of the 1970s in Italy and less prominently in Germany, which was not successful as the democratic state were able to suppress (not just by using the military) the terrorist movements.
In conclusion I think the objectives of the military and terrorists are opposed, although, of course, the means are the same, armed violence.
Finally, I just wanted to remind that there are huge divisions within the Arab world to consider so one cannot just talk about the Arabs. There is a schism between the Sunni and the Shia muslims. For instance, Hezbollah are Shia muslims. Iran has a majority of Shia muslims. Palestinians instead are Sunni.
Sorry, if my post is long-winded, but I was trying to summarise in a very short time!
There are further divisions however. Group can use violence for political change in different ways. The examples you gave of the American Revolution and the Zionists against the British are examples of what I would term "freedom fighters" because they attacked the soldiers that represented the status quo. Had they attacked civilians they would have been terrorists. (I'm sure someone will bring this up so I will pre-empt them. There were Zionist terrorists, namely the Irgun and the Lehi (stern gang), however these were small splinter groups that didn't represent the majority of the yishuv, and were rejected and physically suppressed by the Zionist establishment.)
You're right that there are indeed differences in the Arab world, and certainly Shia and Sunni is one of the biggest. I would point out however that with regards to hatred/opposition to the West and Israel there is actually much more common ground than difference between these two groups in Islam.
Would the American military ever bomb a bus they knew to be full of civilians, and which had no hostile military personel or equipment on it, on purpose, just so they could kill as many civilians as possible? REMEMBER that I mean on purpose, not accidentally, or based on bad intelligence. I mean they see a bus full of civilians they know is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER a military target and decide to destroy it anyways. I don't think they would ever act this way. I am sure that they have no problem killing many civilians while attacking a military target, but I don't think they would ever target a purely civilian target on purpose. That is the difference between terrorists and militaries. A legitimate military draws a distinction between enemy combatents and civilians. Terrorists do not. That is why Hamas, Hezbollah, al Queda, al Queda in Mesopotamia, and all the others like them, even if you think that they are acting to defend their people (which I think is entirely false) are terrorists, because they deliberatly target civilians.
Its a giant bus, a giant prison.. its call Iraq. They can't escape - can't fly - can't fight.. and we bomb and bomb
Its a giant bus, a giant prison.. its call Iraq. They can't escape - can't fly - can't fight.. and we bomb and bomb
yes we would we do
This doesn't deserve a response. I understand that you oppose the war in Iraq, but when you reduce things to absurdities like this there isn't anything to talk about.
Moral equivalence is completely immoral. Blurring the distinction between a military, whose purpose is the defense of a sovereign nation, and terror groups, such as the Islamofascists whose purpose is to destroy the lives of civilians to achieve their goal of global domination, is disgusting. That so many on this board equate the two is a sad statement as to the morals and intelligence of Pearl Jam fans.
(I am not too familiar with posting on a message board, so I hope it is ok to address you personally)
With regard to the first point about terrorists and "freedom fighters", I think it is all a matter of perspective/viewpoint, i.e. the one you support. Surely, the British would not view the American colonists as freedom fighters, whereas the colonists viewed themselves as fighting for their rights and their political objectives.
If on the other hand, you posit the attacking of civilians as the hallmark of terrorists, then there are examples of wars staged by military/armies where civilians were also casualties. True, they may have been "collateral damage". The point about terrorism is to use whatever violent tactics will further their ends. I am talking here of all kinds of terrorism (red, ie leftwing; black,i.e. fascist; or religious terrorism) and the tactics can be as diverse as kidnappings of Prime Ministers (this happened in Italy in 1978) in order to raise the stakes and force negotiations with the State, viewed as their enemy (in that case, that tactic did not work. The PM, Aldo Moro, was killed; the state did not negotiate. However, the state was only able to succeed in defeating the radical left terrorism by a combination of force and negotiation, ie talking with the captured terrorists who then revealed more info.. sorry, I am digressing! My point is that the attack of civilians is not a defining characteristic per se of terrorist groups, but rather it is their tactics, stemmed from their objections to the normal patterns of political; and their tactics are aimed to provoke terror (hence the name), because this what is most likely to raise their profile.
Finally, with regard to Shia and Sunni being united by their hatred of the West/Israel, I would agree that this latest initiative in Lebanon by Israel had the effect of uniting the Shia and Sunni Lebanese behind Hezbollah.
This is to me, incidentally, is proving a highly unpragmatic way for Israel to solve the Hezbollah problem. Instead of supporting the weak Lebanese government in ridding Hezbollah (mainly operating in South Lebanon and emerged in 1982 during the first war in Lebanon against Israel invasion) they opted for a military solution, which I am not sure how quickly can be reached in a satisfactorily (sp?) manner for Israel.
Also, you also have to consider that there are differences within the West itself (the contrasting opinions of the general population and their respective governments with regard to the war in Iraq for instance, well mainly in Europe. I don't know whether the US public supported the war originally. I guess now with the rising numbers of US soldiers being killed support for the war in Iraq might be waning).
Ok, I hope I have been able to put across my thoughts!
Edited to add:
Dayan,
I do see your points that in the current situation of Israel, terrorists (whether suicide bombers or Hezbollah in the North) target civilians, whereas the Israeli army targets terrorist groups. But that it is not always so clear cut. The Israeli army attacks have produced civilian casualties (UN peacekeepers and 37 children in Qanaa, most recently); terrorists aims at military targets but also at civilian targets, because this will most likely produce, in their calculations, the highest returns to their cause with the military means they have (and in the Middle East situation the military might of Palestianian fighters or Hezbollah, even considering the support from Iran and Syria in this latter case, is still considerably less than that of Israel, so killing civilians is a viable tactic for those groups in their calculations).
Orlando Bosch is a Cuban exile and former CIA-backed criminal, head of CORU organization, which the FBI has described as "an anti-Castro terrorist umbrella organization". He has been accused of having taken part in Operation Condor and of a variety of terrorist attacks. Most notably he has admitted, together with another anti-Castro Cuban exile Luis Posada Carriles, of taking part in the October 6, 1976 bombing of a Cuban civilian airliner in which all seventy-three people on board were killed. This bombing would have been decided at the same meeting, attended by Luis Posada Carriles and DINA agent Michael Townley, where Chilean former minister Orlando Letelier's assassination, in Washington, D.C. in 1976, was decided.
Orlando Bosch was in contact with CIA in 1962 and 1963, as the agency itself admitted, as recorded in the National Security Archive [1]. At this time, Bosch was the General Coordinator of the Insurrectional Movement of Revolutionary Recovery (MIRR). He was a member of the anti-Castro Operation 40.
...Several days later, Posada was reported to have stated that "we are going to hit a Cuban airplane" and "Orlando has the details." (Both the Bosch and Posada statements were cited in an October 18, 1976 report to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger posted by the National Security Archive on May 17, 2005.)
He was arrested in Florida for an attack on a Polish freighter with a 57 mm recoilless rifle in 1968. Bosch was freed from Venezuelan charges and went to the United States in 1987, assisted by US Ambassador to Venezuela Otto Reich. Bosch was pardoned of all American charges by President George H.W. Bush on July 18, 1990.
Luis Posada Carriles (born February 15, 1928) is an anti-Castro and anti-Communist fugitive who is alleged to have been involved in numerous violent terrorist plots, including Operation 40, hotel bombings and the 1976 bombing of a Cubana Flight 455 in which seventy-three people were killed. He is also said to have been involved in Operation Condor, namely in Orlando Letelier's murder in Washington, D.C., a few weeks before Cubana de Aviación's explosion. Posada has lived in Venezuela, where he became a naturalized citizen and served in its political police; and the United States, where he served in the U.S. Army and developed a relationship with the CIA.
In April 2005, Posada sought political asylum in the United States. Venezuela, where he had broken out of prison, has formally requested Posada's extradition,[1] as has Cuba [2]. A Department of Homeland Security judge ruled that he cannot be deported because of alleged threat of torture in Venezuela [3]. According to Cuba's official newspaper on March 22, 2006, the US Immigration and Custorms Enforcement (ICE) informed Posada that he would continue to be detained on the grounds that he continues "to present a danger to the community and a flight risk" and claimed that he has "a history of engaging in criminal activity, associating with individuals involved in criminal activity, and participating in violent acts that indicate a disregard for the safety of the general public".[4] With Guillermo Novo Sampoll, Orlando Bosch and Gaspar Jiménez Escobedo, he founded the Coordination of United Revolutionary Organizations (CORU)[5].
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Moral equivalence is completely immoral. Blurring the distinction between a military, whose purpose is the defense of a sovereign nation, and terror groups, such as the Islamofascists whose purpose is to destroy the lives of civilians to achieve their goal of global domination, is disgusting. That so many on this board equate the two is a sad statement as to the morals and intelligence of Pearl Jam fans.
you're saying a military has never been misused? you're saying germany used it's military for good things?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I'm fairly certain Israel is not holding 10,000 Lebanese prisoners in jail. Certainly there are Lebanese prisoners, but not 10,000 of them. Besides which, please tell me how indiscriminate bombing of civilians is a legitimate means of obtaining the release of prisoners. I was under the impression that attacking civilians to achieve a political aim is defined as terrorism. As for the Palestinians, you are virtually admitting that Hezbollah is using the Palestinians as an excuse to attack Israel. Palestinians are not Lebanese. Their struggle is not Hezbollah's. And even if Hezbollah was motivated by empathy and solidarity with the Palestinians, again, please tell me how attacking civilians is a legitimate means of expressing support?
Only 3 prisoners, all were sent to prison after a fair trail.
This doesn't deserve a response. I understand that you oppose the war in Iraq, but when you reduce things to absurdities like this there isn't anything to talk about.
whatever.. you all simplify the actions of terrorists as evil, yet always add the personal story behind our actions and why we are killing them and the distance we are from the killing makes it better for you.
We kill for our oun prosperity.
They do the same.
Yet, currently it can correctly be argued that we are killing for our prosperity and they are killing in self defense and self and cultural preservation.
I'm fairly certain Israel is not holding 10,000 Lebanese prisoners in jail. Certainly there are Lebanese prisoners, but not 10,000 of them.
Lebanon wants return of Shebaa Farms
By Cilina Nasser in Beirut
Sunday 30 July 2006, 8:22 Makka Time, 5:22 GMT
Siniora: Re-taking the Shebaa Farms would be a victory for all Lebanese
“Today while we understand, appreciate and grasp the extreme pressures the resistance in Palestine is being subjected to, both externally and internally, we unite our voices and stand with theirs to say yes this issue is worth that level of sacrifice, confrontation and steadiness for it is a matter of principle and the issue of 10,000 detainees.” —Hezbollah Secretary-General Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah (June 30)
Fouad Siniora, the Lebanese prime minister, has said that if Israel wants secure borders it must withdraw from the disputed Shebaa Farms area it has occupied since 1967.
Israel, which has bombarded Beirut's suburbs and southern Lebanon with aircraft and artillery since July 12, has said it wants to weaken Hezbollah so that the Lebanese government can disarm the group.
In an interview with Aljazeera.net late on Friday, Siniora said his government cannot force Hezbollah to disarm as long as Israel continues to occupy the Shebaa Farms.
He said: "I'd like to remind you that the Shebaa Farms is not a property of Hezbollah. It's a property of Lebanon and it's for all the Lebanese.
"So anyone who would say that giving this land back to Lebanon would be considered a victory for Hezbollah is mistaken. This issue has to be looked at in totality. Lebanon gets back its land and, ultimately, Israel gets a safe border."
Israel withdrew from the country in May 2000 but it maintained control over the Shebaa Farms that is claimed by Lebanon.
The UN says that the Shebaa Farms are Syrian territory captured in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.
Ceasefire plan
Siniora also cited Lebanon's casualty figures as indication of who was paying the price for the recent conflict.
"Do you think that Israel has been bombing Hezbollah fighters? No, this is a war against Lebanese civilians."
Factbox: The Shebaa Farms
The Shebaa Farms is the name given to a 10 km sq area of farmland at the point where the Lebanese, Syrian and Israeli borders meet.
The Shebaa Farms were first occupied by Israel in the wake of the 1967 War, also known as the Six Day War.
On Saturday, the UN said at least 600 Lebanese have been killed and over 3,220 injured in the conflict so far while nearly 800,000 have been displaced.
Siniora said: "Israel cannot win this war. Yes, it can kill; but it cannot win the war."
His comments came a day after two Hezbollah ministers agreed to his seven-point package delivered Wednesday at an international conference in Rome.
The package calls for an immediate ceasefire to be followed by the release of Lebanese and Israeli prisoners, Israeli withdrawal behind the border and the return of Lebanese displaced by the fighting.
The two cabinet ministers representing Hezbollah voiced their reservations over some parts of the plan, such as the call for spreading Lebanese government authority over the entire country and strengthening an international force in south Lebanon.
But Siniora told Aljazeera.net that Lebanon can no longer afford to be heavily bombarded by the Israelis every few years. That's why, he insisted, the country should get to a situation where the Lebanese authorities are the only body that could hold weapons.
Disarming Hezbollah
So far, the council for development and reconstruction has estimated Lebanon's losses due to the destruction of infrastructure in this war alone to be over US$2billion.
However, the prime minister said that confining arms to the Lebanese army would have to be done only after Israel pulls out from the Shebaa Farms.
He said: "Hezbollah has expressed many times that it has the following objectives: liberating Lebanese occupied land, getting maps of all landmines planted in southern Lebanon during the Israeli occupation, and securing the release of our detainees who are held in Israeli jails."
He further said that those who want Hezbollah to disarm they should work on removing the causes that are enabling the Shia group to keep its weapons rather than exerting pressure on it.
"There are reasons why Hezbollah's military wing exists. If we take them away, there will be no reason for it to continue."
Establishing security
Siniora said: "If Israel does not want to withdraw from Shebaa, it means it does not want to establish stability in the region. Who is really causing the violence here? It's the warring party insisting on aggression by keeping other people’s lands."
Siniora warned that the continuation of the Israeli wide-scale attack on Lebanon would only lead to more deaths and destruction that would fuel hatred.
The premier refrained from criticising George Bush, the US president, and Tony Blair, the British prime minister, for failing to call for an immediate truce following their meeting Friday to discuss the Middle East crisis. Asked if they have let him down, he said: "I don’t like to use the word disappointment."
This conversation started elsewhere, but I thought it worthy its own thread. I really want to hear why so many want to equate them the same. I don't get it. From the bottom up.....
i agree in fact i think they are even worse
"If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin castle, unless you set about the organisation of the socialist republic then all of your efforts would have been in vain. England will still rule you through her capitalists ,landlords and commercial institutions"
Byrnzie, what was the point of that? You posted something that is entirely meaningless. Did you mean to show that there really are 10,000 Lebanese prisoners in Israel, cause if that was your purpose I don't think Hassan Nassrallah is a trust worthy source.
whatever.. you all simplify the actions of terrorists as evil, yet always add the personal story behind our actions and why we are killing them and the distance we are from the killing makes it better for you.
We kill for our oun prosperity.
They do the same.
Yet, currently it can correctly be argued that we are killing for our prosperity and they are killing in self defense and self and cultural preservation.
...........
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
"Hitler had the right idea, he was just an underachiever."
The Jews certainly killed tens of thousands of people to claim their expanded borders. They're not innocent in this. If anything, they learned nothing from being oppressed people, except how to oppress.
Edit:
Can you say eraser?
HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
I think your post needs special attention.....maybe the mods should consider exactly what you are saying here. If threads get deleted because of anti Muslim statements, then maybe this one should be deleted or you should be banned for this statement. I demand equal treatment.
The Hicks joke was sarcasm and the rest was a damn good point.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The Hicks joke was sarcasm and the rest was a damn good point.
I considered that .... wasn't sure, no smiley faces
My point was Hitlter was a fuck, and I hope he knows that his little plan failed to the point that it brought about the creation of Israel. I really hope he knows that, of course he is probabaly too busy gnashing his teeth to pay attention.
I think that is an even better point
HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
I considered that .... wasn't sure, no smiley faces
My point was Hitlter was a fuck, and I hope he knows that his little plan failed to the point that it brought about the creation of Israel. I really hope he knows that, of course he is probabaly too busy gnashing his teeth to pay attention.
I think that is an even better point
What seems sad to me is that even beyond the grave, he is still causing great anguish onto our world. And we are letting it happen.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
you're saying a military has never been misused? you're saying germany used it's military for good things?
<cough> <cough>
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Comments
Because Israel is holding approx 10,000 Lebanese prisoners in it's jails, and because Israel is continuing to slaughter Palestinian Muslims.
I'm fairly certain Israel is not holding 10,000 Lebanese prisoners in jail. Certainly there are Lebanese prisoners, but not 10,000 of them. Besides which, please tell me how indiscriminate bombing of civilians is a legitimate means of obtaining the release of prisoners. I was under the impression that attacking civilians to achieve a political aim is defined as terrorism. As for the Palestinians, you are virtually admitting that Hezbollah is using the Palestinians as an excuse to attack Israel. Palestinians are not Lebanese. Their struggle is not Hezbollah's. And even if Hezbollah was motivated by empathy and solidarity with the Palestinians, again, please tell me how attacking civilians is a legitimate means of expressing support?
I have been reading the thread in my lunchbreak and I felt compelled to write in to add my 2 cents..
The military aims to preserve the status quo, ie defend and preserve the current political set-up and must follow political directives in a democratic regime. Exceptions are coup d'etat when the military can be co-opted to overthrow the political regime.
Terrorist groups aim to upset and change the status quo by using violent tactics, because they do not recognise the political authority in power. This has happened for instance when the American colonies fought the British Empire in the seventeenth century: violence was used to gain their political objective of independence. Similarly, supporters of the Zionist ideology used violent tactics against the British who at the time held a protectorate over Palestine, in order to further their objectives of establishing the state of Israel. More recent examples from European history: the radical left terrorism of the 1970s in Italy and less prominently in Germany, which was not successful as the democratic state were able to suppress (not just by using the military) the terrorist movements.
In conclusion I think the objectives of the military and terrorists are opposed, although, of course, the means are the same, armed violence.
Finally, I just wanted to remind that there are huge divisions within the Arab world to consider so one cannot just talk about the Arabs. There is a schism between the Sunni and the Shia muslims. For instance, Hezbollah are Shia muslims. Iran has a majority of Shia muslims. Palestinians instead are Sunni.
Sorry, if my post is long-winded, but I was trying to summarise in a very short time!
There are further divisions however. Group can use violence for political change in different ways. The examples you gave of the American Revolution and the Zionists against the British are examples of what I would term "freedom fighters" because they attacked the soldiers that represented the status quo. Had they attacked civilians they would have been terrorists. (I'm sure someone will bring this up so I will pre-empt them. There were Zionist terrorists, namely the Irgun and the Lehi (stern gang), however these were small splinter groups that didn't represent the majority of the yishuv, and were rejected and physically suppressed by the Zionist establishment.)
You're right that there are indeed differences in the Arab world, and certainly Shia and Sunni is one of the biggest. I would point out however that with regards to hatred/opposition to the West and Israel there is actually much more common ground than difference between these two groups in Islam.
Its a giant bus, a giant prison.. its call Iraq. They can't escape - can't fly - can't fight.. and we bomb and bomb
yes we would we do
This doesn't deserve a response. I understand that you oppose the war in Iraq, but when you reduce things to absurdities like this there isn't anything to talk about.
(I am not too familiar with posting on a message board, so I hope it is ok to address you personally)
With regard to the first point about terrorists and "freedom fighters", I think it is all a matter of perspective/viewpoint, i.e. the one you support. Surely, the British would not view the American colonists as freedom fighters, whereas the colonists viewed themselves as fighting for their rights and their political objectives.
If on the other hand, you posit the attacking of civilians as the hallmark of terrorists, then there are examples of wars staged by military/armies where civilians were also casualties. True, they may have been "collateral damage". The point about terrorism is to use whatever violent tactics will further their ends. I am talking here of all kinds of terrorism (red, ie leftwing; black,i.e. fascist; or religious terrorism) and the tactics can be as diverse as kidnappings of Prime Ministers (this happened in Italy in 1978) in order to raise the stakes and force negotiations with the State, viewed as their enemy (in that case, that tactic did not work. The PM, Aldo Moro, was killed; the state did not negotiate. However, the state was only able to succeed in defeating the radical left terrorism by a combination of force and negotiation, ie talking with the captured terrorists who then revealed more info.. sorry, I am digressing! My point is that the attack of civilians is not a defining characteristic per se of terrorist groups, but rather it is their tactics, stemmed from their objections to the normal patterns of political; and their tactics are aimed to provoke terror (hence the name), because this what is most likely to raise their profile.
Finally, with regard to Shia and Sunni being united by their hatred of the West/Israel, I would agree that this latest initiative in Lebanon by Israel had the effect of uniting the Shia and Sunni Lebanese behind Hezbollah.
This is to me, incidentally, is proving a highly unpragmatic way for Israel to solve the Hezbollah problem. Instead of supporting the weak Lebanese government in ridding Hezbollah (mainly operating in South Lebanon and emerged in 1982 during the first war in Lebanon against Israel invasion) they opted for a military solution, which I am not sure how quickly can be reached in a satisfactorily (sp?) manner for Israel.
Also, you also have to consider that there are differences within the West itself (the contrasting opinions of the general population and their respective governments with regard to the war in Iraq for instance, well mainly in Europe. I don't know whether the US public supported the war originally. I guess now with the rising numbers of US soldiers being killed support for the war in Iraq might be waning).
Ok, I hope I have been able to put across my thoughts!
Edited to add:
Dayan,
I do see your points that in the current situation of Israel, terrorists (whether suicide bombers or Hezbollah in the North) target civilians, whereas the Israeli army targets terrorist groups. But that it is not always so clear cut. The Israeli army attacks have produced civilian casualties (UN peacekeepers and 37 children in Qanaa, most recently); terrorists aims at military targets but also at civilian targets, because this will most likely produce, in their calculations, the highest returns to their cause with the military means they have (and in the Middle East situation the military might of Palestianian fighters or Hezbollah, even considering the support from Iran and Syria in this latter case, is still considerably less than that of Israel, so killing civilians is a viable tactic for those groups in their calculations).
for a start...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Bosch
Orlando Bosch is a Cuban exile and former CIA-backed criminal, head of CORU organization, which the FBI has described as "an anti-Castro terrorist umbrella organization". He has been accused of having taken part in Operation Condor and of a variety of terrorist attacks. Most notably he has admitted, together with another anti-Castro Cuban exile Luis Posada Carriles, of taking part in the October 6, 1976 bombing of a Cuban civilian airliner in which all seventy-three people on board were killed. This bombing would have been decided at the same meeting, attended by Luis Posada Carriles and DINA agent Michael Townley, where Chilean former minister Orlando Letelier's assassination, in Washington, D.C. in 1976, was decided.
Orlando Bosch was in contact with CIA in 1962 and 1963, as the agency itself admitted, as recorded in the National Security Archive [1]. At this time, Bosch was the General Coordinator of the Insurrectional Movement of Revolutionary Recovery (MIRR). He was a member of the anti-Castro Operation 40.
...Several days later, Posada was reported to have stated that "we are going to hit a Cuban airplane" and "Orlando has the details." (Both the Bosch and Posada statements were cited in an October 18, 1976 report to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger posted by the National Security Archive on May 17, 2005.)
He was arrested in Florida for an attack on a Polish freighter with a 57 mm recoilless rifle in 1968. Bosch was freed from Venezuelan charges and went to the United States in 1987, assisted by US Ambassador to Venezuela Otto Reich. Bosch was pardoned of all American charges by President George H.W. Bush on July 18, 1990.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles
Luis Posada Carriles (born February 15, 1928) is an anti-Castro and anti-Communist fugitive who is alleged to have been involved in numerous violent terrorist plots, including Operation 40, hotel bombings and the 1976 bombing of a Cubana Flight 455 in which seventy-three people were killed. He is also said to have been involved in Operation Condor, namely in Orlando Letelier's murder in Washington, D.C., a few weeks before Cubana de Aviación's explosion. Posada has lived in Venezuela, where he became a naturalized citizen and served in its political police; and the United States, where he served in the U.S. Army and developed a relationship with the CIA.
In April 2005, Posada sought political asylum in the United States. Venezuela, where he had broken out of prison, has formally requested Posada's extradition,[1] as has Cuba [2]. A Department of Homeland Security judge ruled that he cannot be deported because of alleged threat of torture in Venezuela [3]. According to Cuba's official newspaper on March 22, 2006, the US Immigration and Custorms Enforcement (ICE) informed Posada that he would continue to be detained on the grounds that he continues "to present a danger to the community and a flight risk" and claimed that he has "a history of engaging in criminal activity, associating with individuals involved in criminal activity, and participating in violent acts that indicate a disregard for the safety of the general public".[4] With Guillermo Novo Sampoll, Orlando Bosch and Gaspar Jiménez Escobedo, he founded the Coordination of United Revolutionary Organizations (CORU)[5].
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
you're saying a military has never been misused? you're saying germany used it's military for good things?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Only 3 prisoners, all were sent to prison after a fair trail.
whatever.. you all simplify the actions of terrorists as evil, yet always add the personal story behind our actions and why we are killing them and the distance we are from the killing makes it better for you.
We kill for our oun prosperity.
They do the same.
Yet, currently it can correctly be argued that we are killing for our prosperity and they are killing in self defense and self and cultural preservation.
Lebanon wants return of Shebaa Farms
By Cilina Nasser in Beirut
Sunday 30 July 2006, 8:22 Makka Time, 5:22 GMT
Siniora: Re-taking the Shebaa Farms would be a victory for all Lebanese
“Today while we understand, appreciate and grasp the extreme pressures the resistance in Palestine is being subjected to, both externally and internally, we unite our voices and stand with theirs to say yes this issue is worth that level of sacrifice, confrontation and steadiness for it is a matter of principle and the issue of 10,000 detainees.” —Hezbollah Secretary-General Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah (June 30)
Fouad Siniora, the Lebanese prime minister, has said that if Israel wants secure borders it must withdraw from the disputed Shebaa Farms area it has occupied since 1967.
Israel, which has bombarded Beirut's suburbs and southern Lebanon with aircraft and artillery since July 12, has said it wants to weaken Hezbollah so that the Lebanese government can disarm the group.
In an interview with Aljazeera.net late on Friday, Siniora said his government cannot force Hezbollah to disarm as long as Israel continues to occupy the Shebaa Farms.
He said: "I'd like to remind you that the Shebaa Farms is not a property of Hezbollah. It's a property of Lebanon and it's for all the Lebanese.
"So anyone who would say that giving this land back to Lebanon would be considered a victory for Hezbollah is mistaken. This issue has to be looked at in totality. Lebanon gets back its land and, ultimately, Israel gets a safe border."
Israel withdrew from the country in May 2000 but it maintained control over the Shebaa Farms that is claimed by Lebanon.
The UN says that the Shebaa Farms are Syrian territory captured in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.
Ceasefire plan
Siniora also cited Lebanon's casualty figures as indication of who was paying the price for the recent conflict.
"Do you think that Israel has been bombing Hezbollah fighters? No, this is a war against Lebanese civilians."
Factbox: The Shebaa Farms
The Shebaa Farms is the name given to a 10 km sq area of farmland at the point where the Lebanese, Syrian and Israeli borders meet.
The Shebaa Farms were first occupied by Israel in the wake of the 1967 War, also known as the Six Day War.
On Saturday, the UN said at least 600 Lebanese have been killed and over 3,220 injured in the conflict so far while nearly 800,000 have been displaced.
Siniora said: "Israel cannot win this war. Yes, it can kill; but it cannot win the war."
His comments came a day after two Hezbollah ministers agreed to his seven-point package delivered Wednesday at an international conference in Rome.
The package calls for an immediate ceasefire to be followed by the release of Lebanese and Israeli prisoners, Israeli withdrawal behind the border and the return of Lebanese displaced by the fighting.
The two cabinet ministers representing Hezbollah voiced their reservations over some parts of the plan, such as the call for spreading Lebanese government authority over the entire country and strengthening an international force in south Lebanon.
But Siniora told Aljazeera.net that Lebanon can no longer afford to be heavily bombarded by the Israelis every few years. That's why, he insisted, the country should get to a situation where the Lebanese authorities are the only body that could hold weapons.
Disarming Hezbollah
So far, the council for development and reconstruction has estimated Lebanon's losses due to the destruction of infrastructure in this war alone to be over US$2billion.
However, the prime minister said that confining arms to the Lebanese army would have to be done only after Israel pulls out from the Shebaa Farms.
He said: "Hezbollah has expressed many times that it has the following objectives: liberating Lebanese occupied land, getting maps of all landmines planted in southern Lebanon during the Israeli occupation, and securing the release of our detainees who are held in Israeli jails."
He further said that those who want Hezbollah to disarm they should work on removing the causes that are enabling the Shia group to keep its weapons rather than exerting pressure on it.
"There are reasons why Hezbollah's military wing exists. If we take them away, there will be no reason for it to continue."
Establishing security
Siniora said: "If Israel does not want to withdraw from Shebaa, it means it does not want to establish stability in the region. Who is really causing the violence here? It's the warring party insisting on aggression by keeping other people’s lands."
Siniora warned that the continuation of the Israeli wide-scale attack on Lebanon would only lead to more deaths and destruction that would fuel hatred.
The premier refrained from criticising George Bush, the US president, and Tony Blair, the British prime minister, for failing to call for an immediate truce following their meeting Friday to discuss the Middle East crisis. Asked if they have let him down, he said: "I don’t like to use the word disappointment."
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
...........
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Do your homework before you say something...
edit: thanks ABook
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Designation_as_terrorist_organization
Edit:
Can you say eraser?
The Hicks joke was sarcasm and the rest was a damn good point.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I considered that .... wasn't sure, no smiley faces
My point was Hitlter was a fuck, and I hope he knows that his little plan failed to the point that it brought about the creation of Israel. I really hope he knows that, of course he is probabaly too busy gnashing his teeth to pay attention.
I think that is an even better point
What seems sad to me is that even beyond the grave, he is still causing great anguish onto our world. And we are letting it happen.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
<cough> <cough>
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way