Militaries are the same as terrorists
WindNoSail
Posts: 580
This conversation started elsewhere, but I thought it worthy its own thread. I really want to hear why so many want to equate them the same. I don't get it. From the bottom up.....
WindNoSail wrote:I am not condoning what Israel is doing, so just take that out of the equation. But your statements scare me. Hezbollah is protecting no one. They have purposes that do not have any allegence to any persons or country. They are there to bait Israel, attack Israel. If there were no Hez, do you think Israel was going to invade Lebanon, which they voluntarily left six years ago? Would Lebanon be in any threat AT ALL from Israel??
The other side of that equation is if there were no weapons in Isreal do you think Hez would just go away nicely. No! They would be terrorizing Israel and trying to take it over.
Open your eyes.
Abookamongstthemany wrote:Hezbollah is protecting a group of people just the same as a military would. Both kill indiscriminately. It's the same concept only different names. You can't condemn one for doing the exact same thing as the other.
WindNoSail wrote:How can a terrorist group defend a nation? What nation do they represent. What formal body of govt and population do they defend?
Lebanon has a military but they aren't engaged in the current conflict. You know what you just said it totally not thought out. All those funds going to Hez could be coming from the people of Lebanon to the govt of Lebanon if they want to build up a huge army to invade Israel. Then of course Israel would attack Lebanon or some war would erupt with military involvement, someone would win, someone would lose. But the people of Lebanon are sufferring because a terrorist group took over part of the country and the people had no choice, and no representation.
We need to get on with it, we need to sort out our world views a bit before we can see that by equating terrorists with militaries and govts we only contribute to their survival, more destablization, more death of innocents.
This is the wrong thread for this dicussion. Sorry Mel.
Abookamongstthemany wrote:Terrorism is their form of military. And it is no differnet than the actions of our own military. They seek to protect their people just as our military is supposed to do.
reborncareerist wrote:Thumbs up from me ... For what its worth.
WindNoSail wrote:Maybe I am just a fool, but as much as I dislike war I think militaries exist in this world because of the protection of their citizens first. I think militaries are neccessary at this point in human existence. So are the police.
Guess I think there are rules that the game must be played by. Terrorism destabalizes the whole game. You can't negotiate with terrorists, you can't have a soveirgn nation within another, you can't make citizens the target to control policies. If you follow this line of thinking we are actually reverting back to a tribal system.
This is just all history and political science and the nature of man rolled up in what could be a very deep discussion.
I don't like anyone dying by any hand, but we have to get rid of terrorism before you will ever get rid of militaries.
Abookamongstthemany wrote:Like militaries?
WindNoSail wrote:I guess I would prefer to believe all this than think he or anyone really hates Jews. Cause I can't understand hating a race of people. I can understand hating a terrorist though cause they kill people without regard or remorse.
HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
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Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Why do you think Hezbollah is baiting and attacking Israel?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Because they have been importing weapons from Syria and Iran and God knows who else, and storing them along the border (in neighborhoods) ever since Israel pulled out. They have used them as well, firing them into Israel.
Powder keg. Eventually it was going to blow.
So, what is your reasoning as why terrorists groups setup camp inside a soveirgn nation that has a military, that had ecently kicked out a Syrian occupation and is pursuing a democracy. And they do it inside of villages with lots of kids and little old lady's?
The reality is, Israel has the bomb, and they will defend their right to live where they live, regardless of what's right. They are our capitalist mechanism in that region, so we will always come to Israel's aid, even when they are in clear violation of the Geneva Convention.
I have a solution, but it's drastic.
Iran should arm the Palestinians the way we armed Afghanistan from the 70's through the early 90's for their war with the former Soviet Union. Once properly armed, the Palestinians could attack Israel from it's eastern border. Egypt has no love for Israel, so they could provide air support to the Palestinians from the south. Russia could supply humanitarian aid to Lebanon. If Turkey shuts off its airspace to Russian humanitarian flights (the same way they shut it off to Iran last week), Russia can respond by shutting of its oil going into Turkey, and flood the market with cheap oil...which would in turn fuck OPEC.
That would level the playing field.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
I think Hezbollah is trying to protect Arabs who are misplaced and oppressed by Israel. I think they view Israel as a threat because of their policy of continuous occupation and violence to those who don't go along with it. I don't agree with their means but I think that is their reasoning.
Why did the US set up camp in a sovereign nation that had a military? Maybe their govt/military feel they need the added protection? They haven't kicked them out.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
What Arabs are being protected by Hez? Again, the Lebonese were NOT being protected but rather used by Hez.
I have given lots of good points here about the differences, but mostly I get one liners from you that don't even address my points.
If there were no terrorists in Iraq, Iraq would be living in a democracy by now. Seriously, I have never seen a more destructive act than terrorism. How whacked as a human being do you have to be to decide that it is a good idea to blow yourself up amongst a bunch of people. If terrorists really cared about the people like you say they do, wouldn't they just try to allow peace to develop in Iraq? The terrorists in Iraq kill civilians in order to turn Iraqi against Iraqi. Does that seem right to you? Does the end justify the means?
If you want to believe this and spend all your days supporting terrorists who kill innocents, then go ahead. I won't stop you. Unless I change your mind
You can't see the difference because you don't believe in what they are fighting for and you're more comfortable with impersonal and clean weapons.
they both enforce their beliefs by killing.
I give you one liners because you try to make it seem more complicated than it has to be, when apart from all the differing details they are the same basic
concept. You can't get rid of all terrorist organization without genocide. This killing has only multiplied terrorism not divided it.
I don't support terrorists. I'm only showing you that they have reasons that aren't too far off from your reasoning.
Why does Lebanon allow Hezbollah to be there? What is Hezbollah's goal? Think about their true reasonings and then compare them against ours or Israels.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That is a terribly misinformed statement. There is no pragmatic answer you can provide on how to deal with terrorists and the killing they do with that belief. You can dream about peace, but you will never see it if you support terrorism as viable. Imagine living in a crack neighborhood where even the police are afraid to go. That is your reality.
If the motive of any group, terrorists or not is to destroy an ethnic group such as Jews, then yeah there is a difference. Sorry, but you like many others you change your stance about what you believe based on the given situation and what you want to believe.
If I said I support a hate group that believes in killing all Muslims (and acts upon that belief), you would go nuts.
But here you support a group that has explicitly stated they want to destroy the nation of Israel (that is an ethic group) and you apparently don't see that is a problem.
Lastly, as I stated already, I dislike war very much, but if there is war I prefer it be provided to me by accountable governments. I guess I just actually believe in that concept of representative government.
If you want to ever get to the point of actually seeing peace it will only come via governments deciding to resolve differences outside of the military. But you can't go backwards to go forwards, which is really what you are saying when you equate terrorism and the military.
whew... not sure what you are responding to.. but certainly it was not me.
What to I support?
I support someones right to defend themselves. that is why I thought we had a military.
Sadly.. our military has travelled far to kill people that have done us no harm while the "terrorists" are defending themselves against us.
I don't support our use of the military.. and I respect Iraq and its peoples right to defend themselves.
I Don't support Osama Bin Laden.
I Don't support George Bush
Both are murderous pirates
we need a military for out security as does everyone else. And our aggressive behavior does nothing for peace, and our history shows peace has never been our goal.
no, there is no difference between a military and a terrorist.. they are both militaries and they are both terrorists.
It is complicated, not simple. That is the edge the terror groups have right now is that they want you to believe that it is just about regional issues only, and that they represent the issues. Sort of like our protest groups in the US. But it is much more than that, it is a tactic, with the purpose of destabalizing the West and Europe so they can
1) Get Jeruselum 2) turn the world into an Islamic society (that is what it looks like to me based on their own words and actions).
Even if the uneducated ones don't understand all that, they are definately schooled in hate from very early ages of both the West and Israel.
I just can't believe so many people are being fooled by this. A bunch of uneducated bigots running around with robes spouting hatred and death everwhere they go, and somehow we loathe ourselves??? What happened to civil rights, human rights, what happened to the liberals?
We are facing terrorism destabalizing countries all around the globe and no one realizes that our militaries are being pulled into the conflicts only to be called morally equal.
If there were no militaries, would terrorism just go away?
Isn't our goal to spread our ideal society onto these countries?
Both parties are fighting for the same piece of land and both parties are using terror tactics to go about it. Out of the two, the first terrorist were the Israelis. They wanted a piece of land and took it any means necessary. I don't support this, nor do I support it by Hezbollah or Hamas. Both groups are schooled to hate the other. Look at your own distain here. You hold contempt for one side while excusing the other. They are doing the SAME THING you are doing, rather than trying to walk a mile in the other's shoes and see it from their stand point. I don't believe a group of people are evil. They view their plight as justified the same as you. Human rights are supposed to include Arabs, too...last time I checked. And let's not even get into uneducated coming from TV Nation, itself. The only countries I see being destabilized are the ones being destabilized by the US and now Israel (I suppose you don't see this one). Yes, I believe if our militaries all around the world were used properly, the terrorism would decline dramatically.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Most believe they did the Marine barracks suicide bombing in 1982. And yes, they have claimed responsibility for suicide bombings.
I wouldn't really even equate a kamikaze pilot, since they truly were part of the military of a nation.
If they would just put on a uniform, operate under the control of a military that was part of an accountable government, and didn't TARGET civilians, then we would be able to have diplomacy, a chance for peaceful settlement of disagreements, and as a last option war with an enemy that can either defeat or be defeated. That is the only way we are going to progress as the human race, otherwise we are slipping fast into tribalism.
Try educating yourself to history. Hezbollah has not only carried out suicide bombings, they have carried them out against Americans.
"On October 23, 1983, around 6:20 am, a yellow Mercedes-Benz delivery truck drove to Beirut International Airport, where the 1st Battalion 8th Marines, under the U.S. 2nd Marine Division of the United States Marines, had set up its local headquarters. The truck turned onto an access road leading to the Marines' compound and circled a parking lot. The driver then accelerated and crashed through a barbed wire fence around the parking lot, passed between two sentry posts, crashed through a gate and barreled into the lobby of the Marine headquarters. The Marine sentries at the gate were forbidden from using live ammuntion, for fear that a discharge might kill a civilian, so they were powerless to stop him. According to one Marine survivor, the driver was smiling as he sped past him.
The suicide bomber detonated his explosives, which were equivalent to 12,000 pounds (about 5,400kg) of TNT. The force of the explosion collapsed the four-story cinder-block building into rubble, crushing many inside."
241 American soldiers were killed in that suicide bombing. There are American terrorism experts who regard Hezbollah as a much bigger threat than Al Qaeda.
Also, note that this was one of the first known cases of suicide bombing, a form of terror that was perfected not only by Hezbollah but also by Islamic Jihad.
What? Israelis where the first terrorists? Never heard of that. Israel became a nation in 1948 and not by war or terrorism. The expanse of their land included Jeruselum, are you okay with them keeping it?
Without WWII, there would be no Israel.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
Yes. I don't agree with the means inwhich they took the land. But I don't think they should be wiped off the map. I think these two groups of people will have to learn to communicate and understand each other, then once that is established they can start to find ways to co exist and live together. This will require sacrifice on both sides. They can never live in peace with violence and hate.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That is true - and I hope that fuck Hitler knows that his little plan ended up creating the nation Israel full of Jews instead of eliminating them as a race.
But, what I meant was that Jews didn't kill anyone in war to obtain Israel. And Arabs and Jews and Christians lived peacefully for many years before and after 1948 in Jeruselum.
Tell me what acts of terrorism Israel (Jews) did where they took land, and that they actually started the battle? I don't think there is one instance (could be wrong) that Israel actually attacked and then took land.
Look, if we can get passed the concept that equates militaries with terrorists groups, then we can talk about real peace and how I don't want militaries attacking other nations to stop the killing. I am horrified that war can destroy so much, peoples lives, infrastructure, history, etc. Life is hard enough and to just see lives destroyed greatly burdens me.
I could walk up to any Muslim of any nation and greet them with a smile or a hug and come in peace. That is how the world should be. But, if a terrorist was to be the guy I greeted their is a good chance he already hates me and would like to take my life, and has been trained to do such.
Actually when I did a search for "Hezbollah suicide bomb" that's the only example that came up. Additionally I found no where that Hezbollah claimed the attacks, so it could belong to a different group. Really the evidence is refutable.
I wondered about this myself and remembered that there was some debate about whether they did claim responsibility for any acts of terrorism. I suspect that they either are innocent (unlikely) or they just don't take responsibility like other groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Allegations_of_specific_terrorist_attacks
but isn't it ironic israel sold iran thousands of weapons for us in the 80's?
if there were no US government Iran would still be a democracy now...is there a more destructive force than capitalism?
what about the contras (who we violated congress and funded by selling weapons to iran thru israel)? they were called terrorists by our own congress. what about all the death squads we've created, trained, armed, funded? what about the acts of terrorism we've committed like blowing up passenger airliners? what about the deaths in panama where to get a cia agent we killed thousands of ppl which the pentagon admitted over 75% were civillians (they also admitted they dumped "some number of bodies in the same grave")?
plz, we destabalize more of the world than hezbollah or hamas ever will
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Quite ironic, really.
Capitalism is an idealogy of economics and personal liberties, not war making. That doesn't mean that a capitalistic govt can't screw up the world as much as a communist or fascist govt. It is just less likely to do it since the people have a voice and with correct information can vote against such policies.
Whoa, that is a lot to respond to - what passenger planes did we blow up?
seems the world is a lot more violent these days, all since terrorism has become so prominent.
Oh man 6 countries only. Only 6 countries either fully or partially label Hezbollah a terrorist group. Russia omits Hezbollah on it's list. All the other countries recognize it as a legitimate resistance. Hezbollah denies the accusations of Israel and the US.
"The American government has labeled us as terrorists," he says. "They say they don't negotiate with terrorists -- and neither do we."
~Director of Foreign Media Hussein Naboulsi
Good article
While I am linking, here is something for the Islamaphobics.
Anyway, I think that's a pretty loose determination of what a terrorist faction is. I don't see much evidence here just a lot of accusations. They don't appear to deny suicide attacks however or torture. All the US government documents just read "Where as we know..." and then a bunch of stuff with no reference to evidence. Hezbollah says they aren't terrorists. Maybe there is a misunderstanding of the word. I have my own definition, I got it straight out of the dictionary, three of them actually. It often doesn't apply to many groups or people that are labeled a terrorist these days.
Rant...
Did anyone ever notice that since 2001 there has been a lot of terrorist activity. Cells popping up in every neighbourhood. All the bombings and destruction lately have been arabs. No americans blowing up buildings anymore or taking hostages. It's all islamic extremists. That's what I see anyway. Except germany, they had that Armin Meiwes guy. But I mean there is a lot of activity these days. It doesn't make any sense. I think what's going on is a big sociocultural fuck up. We don't even know half of what the US has done to these guys over there. I mean we sit back thinking the western world is bringing justice to everyone else. That's bullshit. We are the most corrupt bastards in the world. We are capitalist scum, usurers. Corporate globalists looking to seize as many assets as we can. The US has political domination over so many countries. It's been going on for so long. I'm getting sick of this. I live under this flag that's supposed to represent me but it doesn't. You get flag waving morons that represent it and whatever the government stands for. They are mindless idiots, they don't have an opinion they just wave the flag. People seem to go through cognitive dissonance when their government fails them. I feel this way constantly. Eventually the only peaceful result is accepting the consequences. It's more self-gratifying to have an optemistic view or to totally support the government's every move. Perhaps submission is the only way. Fighting is useless, it makes life miserable. The flag waving moron has it made. Ignorance is bliss.
Bill Hicks said it best.
"Hitler had the right idea, he was just an underachiever."
The Jews certainly killed tens of thousands of people to claim their expanded borders. They're not innocent in this. If anything, they learned nothing from being oppressed people, except how to oppress.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
they were put there under duress... sometimes they were told that their family would be killed if they didnt conclude their mission.
It wasnt like they signed up for it or anything...
just a thought though.... why did they give Kamikaze pilots helmets???
I would recommend that you read more about Hezbollah. You might start with the wikipedia entry on them. Pay close attention to the section on their ideology as it pertains to Israel. I've posted that bit in my thread on "what Israel should do" it's in my latest post (as of now #55 I believe) if that is easier for you. I think you will find that Hezbollah's stance towards Israel is highly aggressive, and in fact even genocidal, and is not, as you say, merely a defensive stance in the face of Israeli aggression.
And I don't care how hypocritical Russia or any other counrty chose to define them.
Hizbullah is an armed force who took over southern Lebanon and stayed there even after Israel moved out in 2000. It is no Lebanese official army, it doesn't get orders forn Lebanon govt but from Syria & Iran, it had no reason (nor right) to stay armed and it cearly didn't need to protect anyone after we got out of Lebanon - Its only goal now is to destroy Israel.
The IDF is Israel's official army, which takes orders from Israeli govt only and its goal is to protect Israeli citizens against terrorists like Hizbullah men.
Would the American military ever bomb a bus they knew to be full of civilians, and which had no hostile military personel or equipment on it, on purpose, just so they could kill as many civilians as possible? REMEMBER that I mean on purpose, not accidentally, or based on bad intelligence. I mean they see a bus full of civilians they know is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER a military target and decide to destroy it anyways. I don't think they would ever act this way. I am sure that they have no problem killing many civilians while attacking a military target, but I don't think they would ever target a purely civilian target on purpose. That is the difference between terrorists and militaries. A legitimate military draws a distinction between enemy combatents and civilians. Terrorists do not. That is why Hamas, Hezbollah, al Queda, al Queda in Mesopotamia, and all the others like them, even if you think that they are acting to defend their people (which I think is entirely false) are terrorists, because they deliberatly target civilians.