Let's be fair. The vast majority of Americans, be they "religious or otherwise", are opposed to gay marriage. This WAS sadly enough a WAAAAAY bigger deciding issue than it should have been, but, democrats ALLOWED that to happen. Its a fight they will never win. If democrats want to return to power they must ignore this and other trivial "moral" issues. They must force republicans to engage REAL issues of REAL importance such as war, domestic poverty and hunger, tax cuts for billionaires, etc. Democrats will never win as long as they try to hammer it out over gay marriage. Americans in general just don't want that.
Furthermore the left in this country has a very spiritual element to it they can no longer gag and try to shut out. They must embrace it if they hope to win. They must understand that issues such as the ones i mentioned (war, hunger, tax cutd for the hideously wealthy) are in fact spiritual issues! They are moral issues! Force Republicans to deal with them, stop gagging the spiritual element of the left, and they will win.
Equal rights for gay citizens is not a trivial issue. It's about equal treatment under the law, which is one of the fundamental principles of this country. Just because it primarily affects a minority doesn't make it trivial. There was a time when a majority of Americans favored discrimination against other minorities, and that wasn't a fringe issue either, and the people who kept fighting for equality were right, even if it cost them temporary political setbacks.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Equal rights for gay citizens is not a trivial issue. It's about equal treatment under the law, which is one of the fundamental principles of this country. Just because it primarily affects a minority doesn't make it trivial. There was a time when a majority of Americans favored discrimination against other minorities, and that wasn't a fringe issue either, and the people who kept fighting for equality were right, even if it cost them temporary political setbacks.
A lot of the dem candidates didnt support gay marriage either, so they werent right. What cost them temporary political setbacks was the fact that they couldnt run effective campaigns, nothing more nothing less.
A lot of the dem candidates didnt support gay marriage either, so they werent right. What cost them temporary political setbacks was the fact that they couldnt run effective campaigns, nothing more nothing less.
Now THAT I completely agree with.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
How very "elitist" of you. I suppose you feel you are in the ruling class, much like Kerry. Your whole position here is quite simply SIMPLE.
no, i truly believe i am in a class that has some common sense and realizes that 2 guys fucking each other and being in love doesn't affect me one bit.
Its the truth. Sure gay marriage and some of these issues brought out more conservative voters, but the deciding factor in 04 was the dems were pathetic. And I havent been real impressed this time around either. Im gonna hold my nose and vote for Harold Ford JR when I leave work, but Im not overly impressed with him by any means.
You can apply the top portion of this to many liberals just as you can conservatives. Arrogance and thinking your "right" isnt just a conservative characteristic.
I agree in part...honestly, if we would have found WMD's I would have said I was wrong and bush was right...
if FEMA would have been in NO within 24 hours, again, I would have said bush did a good job...
if we caputured or killed bin laden, I would have praised bush and company...
I'm serious...I'm ok with being wrong...In fact, I wish I was "wrong" about a lot of things, but I really don't see that I am....
I think a lot of those on the "left" are ok with being "wrong" too, I really do think that, but hey, I could be wrong...
I agree in part...honestly, if we would have found WMD's I would have said I was wrong and bush was right...
if FEMA would have been in NO within 24 hours, again, I would have said bush did a good job...
if we caputured or killed bin laden, I would have praised bush and company...
I'm serious...I'm ok with being wrong...In fact, I wish I was "wrong" about a lot of things, but I really don't see that I am....
I think a lot of those on the "left" are ok with being "wrong" too, I really do think that, but hey, I could be wrong...
i was also supportive of bush in afghanistan, in opposing terrorism, in pursuing bin laden, etc. i have no qualms acknowledging a job well done. but when he cut and run from afghan to gallop off into iraq, he fucked up big time. and he deserves to be gone just for that. as do all the people who supported it, democrat or republican.
honestly, im not so much voting for democrats this election as i am voting against incumbents, most of who just happen to be republican at the moment.
I agree in part...honestly, if we would have found WMD's I would have said I was wrong and bush was right...
if FEMA would have been in NO within 24 hours, again, I would have said bush did a good job...
if we caputured or killed bin laden, I would have praised bush and company...
I'm serious...I'm ok with being wrong...In fact, I wish I was "wrong" about a lot of things, but I really don't see that I am....
I think a lot of those on the "left" are ok with being "wrong" too, I really do think that, but hey, I could be wrong...
Well I may have misread what you meant a bit. I was referring to people thinking they are right based on philosophies or idelogical differences. On the specific tangible issues like you mention with above I agree with you on. They should be able to just say they were wrong.
I also think religion plays a huge role in this whole thing, as well and hate and fear...I'm serious...there is a large portion of this population that are afraid...afraid of gays, muslums, non-whites, and "liberals"....
Call it what you want, fear or moral opposition", makes no difference. The fact is that the majority of Americans, "religious" or otherwise, do not support gay marriage. As long as democrats try to stand toe-to-toe with republicans, and slug it out over this issue, a complete non-issu really, not only will they look just as stupid, they will lose.
Blame it on religion all you want. The truth is religion speakes much more to issues involving War, poverty, etc. than it does to homosexuality or gay marriage. The left needs to force the right to deal with these issues. They also need to stop gagging the spirtual elements of the left.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Well I may have misread what you meant a bit. I was referring to people thinking they are right based on philosophies or idelogical differences. On the specific tangible issues like you mention with above I agree with you on. They should be able to just say they were wrong.
yup, and I agree with you...after my reply, I thought about what you wrote just above, and you are correct....
i was also supportive of bush in afghanistan, in opposing terrorism, in pursuing bin laden, etc. i have no qualms acknowledging a job well done. but when he cut and run from afghan to gallop off into iraq, he fucked up big time. and he deserves to be gone just for that. as do all the people who supported it, democrat or republican.
honestly, im not so much voting for democrats this election as i am voting against incumbents, most of who just happen to be republican at the moment.
I was supportive of sending troops to afganistan, too...however, I have to wonder the real reasons for going to afganistan...a country, that suddenly is a large producer of opium...one has to wonder about that and where the profits are going...
Equal rights for gay citizens is not a trivial issue. It's about equal treatment under the law, which is one of the fundamental principles of this country. Just because it primarily affects a minority doesn't make it trivial. There was a time when a majority of Americans favored discrimination against other minorities, and that wasn't a fringe issue either, and the people who kept fighting for equality were right, even if it cost them temporary political setbacks.
First of all, i never used the word "trivial". In comparison to war, domestic starvation, social darwinism, tax cuts for gazillionaires etc, however, it is quite minor. It is also foolish for the left to allow the right to make it a key issue. i know how you feel about it, and you know how i feel about it. All that aside, there are much more important things for voters to focus on, and this minor issue is one the left simply will not win. Americans in general just don't want it. Lets focus on real issues and get some really important shit accomplished. Agreed?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Call it what you want, fear or moral opposition", makes no difference. The fact is that the majority of Americans, "religious" or otherwise, do not support gay marriage. As long as democrats try to stand toe-to-toe with republicans, and slug it out over this issue, a complete non-issu really, not only will they look just as stupid, they will lose.
Blame it on religion all you want. The truth is religion speakes much more to issues involving War, poverty, etc. than it does to homosexuality or gay marriage. The left needs to force the right to deal with these issues. They also need to stop gagging the spirtual elements of the left.
you make a great point...the dems get caught up in silly issues and non-issues, they put energy into stupid debates...for that, they have only themselves to blame...
id be interested. who are these people? also, how does one "control" for factors like iraq and the economy? i live in ohio (or did at the time). notwithstanding the very shady things our overseer of election (and conveniently, campaign crony for bush) was doing, all the talk in ohio was gay marriage. people who never even considered voting before and couldn't care less were suddenly registering to vote for the constitutional ban. now, once you get these people into the polls, who are they going to vote for? that staunch defender of christian values, our god-fearing, divinely-inspired, george bush? or that godless, queer-loving, baby-killing coward, john kerry? let's be real. every study i saw post election in this state showed that the deciding issue for voters in ohio was moral values. but let's see what you've got. im curious how they say they "control" for people's beliefs.
turnout may have been stagnant, but it was becos the dems ran a shitty candidate and so a lot of people in the middle stayed home, and the morally indignant rushed out in greater numbers.
pm me your email and i'll send the pdf file. they are political scientists and it's one of many articles (peer-reviewed) that came out after the election.
controlling for other opinions means that we are able to isolate each variable (in this case, opinions on issues) and examine their independent impact on their vote choice. The study asks people their opinions on the various issues then looks to see if they agree with the Administration. They find that agreeing with Bush on abortion or gay marriage had very little impact (and no impact in the 11 ballot initiative states) controlling for opinions on the other issues (iraq, economy, terrorism). These other issues though, did have an impact.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Has there been any "substance" from either party??? I say third party is everyones best bet.. I haven't done my homework on the cantidates, but I'm voting either Democrat or third party tomorrow, given my options.
voting this morning was pretty easy....Democrate ticket..then add independents or libertarians if no Dem was running....and of course...from Bell to Kinky.
then inform yourself, b/c anyone who is informed can't possibly believe what he's saying. seriously, take a step back and see what WindNoSail is saying, and the mindless cliched responses of people saying that if you are voting republican, then it's because you have told to do so by your religion. this is simply not the case, it's a complete fabrication and the reason the democrats continue to fail is that their supportors project their stereotypes onto what they think is the typical republican voter. i encourage you to think that way, b/c the party is dying, regardless of what happens today. and your stereotypes and arrogant attitudes towards the typical republican voter has helped contribute to it.
I'm simply basing my opinion on the republicans that i know personally. (granted that's not alot) as one of my sisters says "it's my Christian duty to vote for the republican candidate, they KNOW that this is a Christian nation!" (I've already gone blue in the face telling her that she's wrong)
I could go outside and throw a rock and hit five or six homes where the occupants are such devout evangelicals that they'd never, ever vote any other way that what their pastor tells them to. so does every Republican vote according to what their chruch tells them to? no, of course not. do a hellvafucking lot of them do it because their church tells them to.... (i'm graciously leaving out GOD here) damn right they do
as one of my sisters says "it's my Christian duty to vote for the republican candidate, they KNOW that this is a Christian nation!" (I've already gone blue in the face telling her that she's wrong)
Nice debate, at least it shows that liberals think most republicans vote based on their pastor, and then we find out that some of them actually do!!
Of course we know that liberals have their own religion, they just don't go to church in order to be led like 'sheep'.
Dems take house, and Missouri. We won't be better off in the long run, but maybe we will be for a couple of years.
HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
I expect that conservatives are going to outdo you in a few years, again. How do I know this? Well, if you look around there really hasn't been any substance to this election from the democrats, so if they win it will be for nothing. It has been all about Bush. You can tell me what you are against, but not what you are for...you need to think about that because even if you win this election, you have actually lost - we have all lost. We all loose because there is no change, no belief beyond Bush is a bad guy. I don't expect anything good to come out of this election. I expect lots of fighting, but fighting for what I do not know.
Some point at least a year or more ago, I was hopeful that people would see that attacking Bush was just an easy fight, politics as usual and was not progressive. Most people supported the war in 2003 including our politicians, but everyone wants to say it is Bush's fault now, even most of you. Democrats in good conscience would have opposed the war if they thought there was reason to not go after Iraq, but I didn't hear it. At least not based on bad intellegence. Everyone believed the WMD's were there. So I know that Dems blame Bush only because they are political, not truthful servants of our republic.
So, I was hopeful that YOU would provide third party minded candidates, pursue a new direction, more positive campaigns...but you missed it. There is nothing to vote for this election, just whether you hate Bush or think you think he is an okay guy. Most people won't even vote this time, definately less than the last three elections cycles. In the end, i would expect the right wingers to outdo you in the next ten years again, not by following Rush L or Karl Rove, but by following INDEPENDENT thinkers. That is my prediction and I think it is based in good analysis that the DNC hasn't a creative bone in its body politic. I don't think the Dems are very tolerant of independence, no they prefer mind numbed robots who fall in line with the party message. Just look at Lieberman?!? Red states are naturally more independent than Blue states so there is my prediction, it will begin here.
Ya, the dems are no answer to our future anymore than republicans. Meanwhile I guess I will have to let another decade pass in hope that the people will arise above the parties so the parties serve US and not themselves.
Goodnight, and I look forward to the legal challenges beginning tomorrow.
Yawn.
the fact that you posted reinforces yesterday as being amazing, man the republicans are scrambling, take it to the bank the dems won the senate too!
I expect that conservatives are going to outdo you in a few years, again. How do I know this? Well, if you look around there really hasn't been any substance to this election from the democrats, so if they win it will be for nothing. It has been all about Bush. You can tell me what you are against, but not what you are for...you need to think about that because even if you win this election, you have actually lost - we have all lost. We all loose because there is no change, no belief beyond Bush is a bad guy. I don't expect anything good to come out of this election. I expect lots of fighting, but fighting for what I do not know.
Some point at least a year or more ago, I was hopeful that people would see that attacking Bush was just an easy fight, politics as usual and was not progressive. Most people supported the war in 2003 including our politicians, but everyone wants to say it is Bush's fault now, even most of you. Democrats in good conscience would have opposed the war if they thought there was reason to not go after Iraq, but I didn't hear it. At least not based on bad intellegence. Everyone believed the WMD's were there. So I know that Dems blame Bush only because they are political, not truthful servants of our republic.
So, I was hopeful that YOU would provide third party minded candidates, pursue a new direction, more positive campaigns...but you missed it. There is nothing to vote for this election, just whether you hate Bush or think you think he is an okay guy. Most people won't even vote this time, definately less than the last three elections cycles. In the end, i would expect the right wingers to outdo you in the next ten years again, not by following Rush L or Karl Rove, but by following INDEPENDENT thinkers. That is my prediction and I think it is based in good analysis that the DNC hasn't a creative bone in its body politic. I don't think the Dems are very tolerant of independence, no they prefer mind numbed robots who fall in line with the party message. Just look at Lieberman?!? Red states are naturally more independent than Blue states so there is my prediction, it will begin here.
Ya, the dems are no answer to our future anymore than republicans. Meanwhile I guess I will have to let another decade pass in hope that the people will arise above the parties so the parties serve US and not themselves.
Goodnight, and I look forward to the legal challenges beginning tomorrow.
Yawn.
also occurred to me... if you're so disappointed with the 2 party system, why dont YOU push for third party candidates? oh, that's right, you're not willing to take any risks or show any courage. you want the dems to do all the hard work while your party rapes the country for the next decade or so. funny, if the dems are so inept, why dyou leave it up to the left to take on this task?
You have let this entire country down for the last 6 years. You have taken us, with your personal agendas and your special interest dollars in a very bad place. You mishandled the Katrina hurricane and that was inexcusable. You took advantage of a grieving country to to convince us that we needed to go to Iraq when in the end it was only to finish the former president Bush's war. Your spending is out of control. Your tax breaks to the richest 1% is atrocious. You have mishandled the trust of the American people.
I welcome the change to our congress. It is much needed.
also occurred to me... if you're so disappointed with the 2 party system, why dont YOU push for third party candidates? oh, that's right, you're not willing to take any risks or show any courage. you want the dems to do all the hard work while your party rapes the country for the next decade or so. funny, if the dems are so inept, why dyou leave it up to the left to take on this task?
Comments
A lot of the dem candidates didnt support gay marriage either, so they werent right. What cost them temporary political setbacks was the fact that they couldnt run effective campaigns, nothing more nothing less.
no, i truly believe i am in a class that has some common sense and realizes that 2 guys fucking each other and being in love doesn't affect me one bit.
Its the truth. Sure gay marriage and some of these issues brought out more conservative voters, but the deciding factor in 04 was the dems were pathetic. And I havent been real impressed this time around either. Im gonna hold my nose and vote for Harold Ford JR when I leave work, but Im not overly impressed with him by any means.
I agree in part...honestly, if we would have found WMD's I would have said I was wrong and bush was right...
if FEMA would have been in NO within 24 hours, again, I would have said bush did a good job...
if we caputured or killed bin laden, I would have praised bush and company...
I'm serious...I'm ok with being wrong...In fact, I wish I was "wrong" about a lot of things, but I really don't see that I am....
I think a lot of those on the "left" are ok with being "wrong" too, I really do think that, but hey, I could be wrong...
i was also supportive of bush in afghanistan, in opposing terrorism, in pursuing bin laden, etc. i have no qualms acknowledging a job well done. but when he cut and run from afghan to gallop off into iraq, he fucked up big time. and he deserves to be gone just for that. as do all the people who supported it, democrat or republican.
honestly, im not so much voting for democrats this election as i am voting against incumbents, most of who just happen to be republican at the moment.
Well I may have misread what you meant a bit. I was referring to people thinking they are right based on philosophies or idelogical differences. On the specific tangible issues like you mention with above I agree with you on. They should be able to just say they were wrong.
Call it what you want, fear or moral opposition", makes no difference. The fact is that the majority of Americans, "religious" or otherwise, do not support gay marriage. As long as democrats try to stand toe-to-toe with republicans, and slug it out over this issue, a complete non-issu really, not only will they look just as stupid, they will lose.
Blame it on religion all you want. The truth is religion speakes much more to issues involving War, poverty, etc. than it does to homosexuality or gay marriage. The left needs to force the right to deal with these issues. They also need to stop gagging the spirtual elements of the left.
yup, and I agree with you...after my reply, I thought about what you wrote just above, and you are correct....
I was supportive of sending troops to afganistan, too...however, I have to wonder the real reasons for going to afganistan...a country, that suddenly is a large producer of opium...one has to wonder about that and where the profits are going...
oil + drugs = a whole lot of money and power....
First of all, i never used the word "trivial". In comparison to war, domestic starvation, social darwinism, tax cuts for gazillionaires etc, however, it is quite minor. It is also foolish for the left to allow the right to make it a key issue. i know how you feel about it, and you know how i feel about it. All that aside, there are much more important things for voters to focus on, and this minor issue is one the left simply will not win. Americans in general just don't want it. Lets focus on real issues and get some really important shit accomplished. Agreed?
you make a great point...the dems get caught up in silly issues and non-issues, they put energy into stupid debates...for that, they have only themselves to blame...
pm me your email and i'll send the pdf file. they are political scientists and it's one of many articles (peer-reviewed) that came out after the election.
controlling for other opinions means that we are able to isolate each variable (in this case, opinions on issues) and examine their independent impact on their vote choice. The study asks people their opinions on the various issues then looks to see if they agree with the Administration. They find that agreeing with Bush on abortion or gay marriage had very little impact (and no impact in the 11 ballot initiative states) controlling for opinions on the other issues (iraq, economy, terrorism). These other issues though, did have an impact.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
voting this morning was pretty easy....Democrate ticket..then add independents or libertarians if no Dem was running....and of course...from Bell to Kinky.
I'm simply basing my opinion on the republicans that i know personally. (granted that's not alot) as one of my sisters says "it's my Christian duty to vote for the republican candidate, they KNOW that this is a Christian nation!" (I've already gone blue in the face telling her that she's wrong)
I could go outside and throw a rock and hit five or six homes where the occupants are such devout evangelicals that they'd never, ever vote any other way that what their pastor tells them to. so does every Republican vote according to what their chruch tells them to? no, of course not. do a hellvafucking lot of them do it because their church tells them to.... (i'm graciously leaving out GOD here) damn right they do
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
lol, Oh the irony in you calling this guy nuts...
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
you should hear the arguements that we get into over same-sex marriage. she was telling me that "it would be a threat to hetrosexual marriage"
so I asked her "so you think that if it were legalized that your husband would suddenly leave you for a dude?"
"No, of course he wouldn't"
"okay then, why do you fucking care if two guys or two girls that are consenting adults get married?!?"
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Of course we know that liberals have their own religion, they just don't go to church in order to be led like 'sheep'.
Dems take house, and Missouri. We won't be better off in the long run, but maybe we will be for a couple of years.
Not true. Never true.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
Exactly.
Ask Hans Blix, the UN Chief Inspector on the whole WMD, for a start!
you're nuts if you think im nuts!
also occurred to me... if you're so disappointed with the 2 party system, why dont YOU push for third party candidates? oh, that's right, you're not willing to take any risks or show any courage. you want the dems to do all the hard work while your party rapes the country for the next decade or so. funny, if the dems are so inept, why dyou leave it up to the left to take on this task?
I welcome the change to our congress. It is much needed.