Democrats, I am disappointed

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

Let's be fair. The vast majority of Americans, be they "religious or otherwise", are opposed to gay marriage. This WAS sadly enough a WAAAAAY bigger deciding issue than it should have been, but, democrats ALLOWED that to happen. Its a fight they will never win. If democrats want to return to power they must ignore this and other trivial "moral" issues. They must force republicans to engage REAL issues of REAL importance such as war, domestic poverty and hunger, tax cuts for billionaires, etc. Democrats will never win as long as they try to hammer it out over gay marriage. Americans in general just don't want that.
Furthermore the left in this country has a very spiritual element to it they can no longer gag and try to shut out. They must embrace it if they hope to win. They must understand that issues such as the ones i mentioned (war, hunger, tax cutd for the hideously wealthy) are in fact spiritual issues! They are moral issues! Force Republicans to deal with them, stop gagging the spiritual element of the left, and they will win.

i would agree with that, but sometimes it's not an option. americans are, quite simply, dumb and superstitious. they truly believe that teaching darwin and allowing gays to have a civil union is far more pressing than anything like war or poverty. thus, it is easier for republicans to blind the people to real issues than it is for democrats to overcome these prejudices and talk abotu real issues.

soulsinging

Purple Hawk wrote:

what you did is propose a hypothesis, not a fact. and that hypothesis has been completely blown out of the water by all political science research.

ther is no evidence that "religious voters" hand an impact on the 2004 election.

All the political science research has disproven this myth...Hillygus and Shields (2005) is one of these, their (and they are liberals) conclusions are:

Once other factors and other issues are controlled for, “moral issues” played a very minor role in predicting the vote choice in 2004.

Interestingly, attitudes towards abortion and gay marriage both failed to achieve statistical significance in the 11 states that had gay marriage ballot initiatives.

The most important issue was attitudes towards the Iraq War. Views of the economy also played a major role.

Also, turnout in the 11 states with ballot initiatives saw no increase in turnout between 2000 and 2004. Again, sorry to bring science into the debate.

See, the simple evidence provided by the media doesn't tell us anything. The simple fact that most people thought moral issues were most important doesn't mean anything because it doesn't account for people's attitudes towards Iraq and the economy. When controlling for these factors, moral issues had no impact.

so who are the informed, and who are the arrogant projecting stereotypes?

I can email a copy of the research to anyone, but can't post it b/c of copywright issues.

id be interested. who are these people? also, how does one "control" for factors like iraq and the economy? i live in ohio (or did at the time). notwithstanding the very shady things our overseer of election (and conveniently, campaign crony for bush) was doing, all the talk in ohio was gay marriage. people who never even considered voting before and couldn't care less were suddenly registering to vote for the constitutional ban. now, once you get these people into the polls, who are they going to vote for? that staunch defender of christian values, our god-fearing, divinely-inspired, george bush? or that godless, queer-loving, baby-killing coward, john kerry? let's be real. every study i saw post election in this state showed that the deciding issue for voters in ohio was moral values. but let's see what you've got. im curious how they say they "control" for people's beliefs.

turnout may have been stagnant, but it was becos the dems ran a shitty candidate and so a lot of people in the middle stayed home, and the morally indignant rushed out in greater numbers.

dg1979us

soulsinging wrote:

fact: the republicans won the 2004 elections solely becos of religious voters who showed up to vote against gay marriage becos their pastors told them to do so. it has been proven in ohio and other states. the "value voters" single-handedly swayed the 2004 election and they did it chiefly based on fear of fags and evolution. then their elected leaders promptly took the opportunity to sell them out.

THe democrats also ran an absolutely pathetic campaign which certainly helped republicans win. The gay marriage certainly drew a lot voters out, but if the dems had ran a more effective campaign they could have won.

soulsinging

dg1979us wrote:

THe democrats also ran an absolutely pathetic campaign which certainly helped republicans win. The gay marriage certainly drew a lot voters out, but if the dems had ran a more effective campaign they could have won.

if the dems had run a candidate at all worth voting for, they could have won. they ran the second worse candidate i can imagine. im not denying kerry sucked. horrible choice. it was like having to vote for harry vs. lloyd in dumb and dumber. i opt for kerry becos i feel bush is a little bit stupider, and, more importantly, the overwhelming republican control of all other branches of government makes it downright necessary to have some sort of checks and balances on them.

dg1979us

soulsinging wrote:

if the dems had run a candidate at all worth voting for, they could have won. they ran the second worse candidate i can imagine. im not denying kerry sucked. horrible choice. it was like having to vote for harry vs. lloyd in dumb and dumber. i opt for kerry becos i feel bush is a little bit stupider, and, more importantly, the overwhelming republican control of all other branches of government makes it downright necessary to have some sort of checks and balances on them.

But that is the dems fault for running Kerry. I agree with you that the gay marriage shouldnt have been a major issue at all considering we were at war. But the democrats did nothing deserving of winning the last election. THey picked a shitty candidate and they had no message and just expected the Bush hate to carry them to a win. The dems were the "dumb" ones in the last election because they couldnt beat one of the most hated presidents in US history.

old and in the way

soulsinging wrote:

i would agree with that, but sometimes it's not an option. americans are, quite simply, dumb and superstitious. they truly believe that teaching darwin and allowing gays to have a civil union is far more pressing than anything like war or poverty. thus, it is easier for republicans to blind the people to real issues than it is for democrats to overcome these prejudices and talk abotu real issues.

How very "elitist" of you. I suppose you feel you are in the ruling class, much like Kerry. Your whole position here is quite simply SIMPLE.

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

i would agree with that, but sometimes it's not an option. americans are, quite simply, dumb and superstitious. they truly believe that teaching darwin and allowing gays to have a civil union is far more pressing than anything like war or poverty. thus, it is easier for republicans to blind the people to real issues than it is for democrats to overcome these prejudices and talk abotu real issues.

i think you sell Americans short here. Yes there are many who are easily duped. There are many, many more, who simply are not presented with alternative. Blaming it on a "dumb and superstitious" populace, is a bit of a cop-out. Fact is the dems are going about it waaay wrong.

dg1979us

soulsinging wrote:

if the dems had run a candidate at all worth voting for, they could have won. they ran the second worse candidate i can imagine. im not denying kerry sucked. horrible choice. it was like having to vote for harry vs. lloyd in dumb and dumber. i opt for kerry becos i feel bush is a little bit stupider, and, more importantly, the overwhelming republican control of all other branches of government makes it downright necessary to have some sort of checks and balances on them.

Maybe the dems should quit telling people how smart they are and start showing it by nominating good candidates with good ideas. Nobody is interested in someone because they think they are smart.

inmytree

cornnifer wrote:

i think you sell Americans short here. Yes there are many who are easily duped. There are many, many more, who simply are not presented with alternative. Blaming it on a "dumb and superstitious" populace, is a bit of a cop-out. Fact is the dems are going about it waaay wrong.

I disagree...I think there are alternatives, but people don't like to be "wrong"...meaning, they are going to support the same person/thinking/viewpoint no matter how much evidence showing them they were/are "wrong"...because they somehow and someway think they will someday be proven "right"...

I also think religion plays a huge role in this whole thing, as well and hate and fear...I'm serious...there is a large portion of this population that are afraid...afraid of gays, muslums, non-whites, and "liberals"....

dg1979us

inmytree wrote:

I disagree...I think there are alternatives, but people don't like to be "wrong"...meaning, they are going to support the same person/thinking/viewpoint no matter how much evidence showing them they were/are "wrong"...because they somehow and someway think they will someday be proven "right"...

I also think religion plays a huge role in this whole thing, as well and hate and fear...I'm serious...there is a large portion of this population that are afraid...afraid of gays, muslums, non-whites, and "liberals"....

You can apply the top portion of this to many liberals just as you can conservatives. Arrogance and thinking your "right" isnt just a conservative characteristic.

hippiemom

cornnifer wrote:

Let's be fair. The vast majority of Americans, be they "religious or otherwise", are opposed to gay marriage. This WAS sadly enough a WAAAAAY bigger deciding issue than it should have been, but, democrats ALLOWED that to happen. Its a fight they will never win. If democrats want to return to power they must ignore this and other trivial "moral" issues. They must force republicans to engage REAL issues of REAL importance such as war, domestic poverty and hunger, tax cuts for billionaires, etc. Democrats will never win as long as they try to hammer it out over gay marriage. Americans in general just don't want that.
Furthermore the left in this country has a very spiritual element to it they can no longer gag and try to shut out. They must embrace it if they hope to win. They must understand that issues such as the ones i mentioned (war, hunger, tax cutd for the hideously wealthy) are in fact spiritual issues! They are moral issues! Force Republicans to deal with them, stop gagging the spiritual element of the left, and they will win.

Equal rights for gay citizens is not a trivial issue. It's about equal treatment under the law, which is one of the fundamental principles of this country. Just because it primarily affects a minority doesn't make it trivial. There was a time when a majority of Americans favored discrimination against other minorities, and that wasn't a fringe issue either, and the people who kept fighting for equality were right, even if it cost them temporary political setbacks.

dg1979us

hippiemom wrote:

Equal rights for gay citizens is not a trivial issue. It's about equal treatment under the law, which is one of the fundamental principles of this country. Just because it primarily affects a minority doesn't make it trivial. There was a time when a majority of Americans favored discrimination against other minorities, and that wasn't a fringe issue either, and the people who kept fighting for equality were right, even if it cost them temporary political setbacks.

A lot of the dem candidates didnt support gay marriage either, so they werent right. What cost them temporary political setbacks was the fact that they couldnt run effective campaigns, nothing more nothing less.

hippiemom

dg1979us wrote:

A lot of the dem candidates didnt support gay marriage either, so they werent right. What cost them temporary political setbacks was the fact that they couldnt run effective campaigns, nothing more nothing less.

Now THAT I completely agree with.

soulsinging

old and in the way wrote:

How very "elitist" of you. I suppose you feel you are in the ruling class, much like Kerry. Your whole position here is quite simply SIMPLE.

no, i truly believe i am in a class that has some common sense and realizes that 2 guys fucking each other and being in love doesn't affect me one bit.

dg1979us

hippiemom wrote:

Now THAT I completely agree with.

Its the truth. Sure gay marriage and some of these issues brought out more conservative voters, but the deciding factor in 04 was the dems were pathetic. And I havent been real impressed this time around either. Im gonna hold my nose and vote for Harold Ford JR when I leave work, but Im not overly impressed with him by any means.

inmytree

dg1979us wrote:

You can apply the top portion of this to many liberals just as you can conservatives. Arrogance and thinking your "right" isnt just a conservative characteristic.

I agree in part...honestly, if we would have found WMD's I would have said I was wrong and bush was right...

if FEMA would have been in NO within 24 hours, again, I would have said bush did a good job...

if we caputured or killed bin laden, I would have praised bush and company...

I'm serious...I'm ok with being wrong...In fact, I wish I was "wrong" about a lot of things, but I really don't see that I am....

I think a lot of those on the "left" are ok with being "wrong" too, I really do think that, but hey, I could be wrong...

soulsinging

inmytree wrote:

I agree in part...honestly, if we would have found WMD's I would have said I was wrong and bush was right...

if FEMA would have been in NO within 24 hours, again, I would have said bush did a good job...

if we caputured or killed bin laden, I would have praised bush and company...

I'm serious...I'm ok with being wrong...In fact, I wish I was "wrong" about a lot of things, but I really don't see that I am....

I think a lot of those on the "left" are ok with being "wrong" too, I really do think that, but hey, I could be wrong...

i was also supportive of bush in afghanistan, in opposing terrorism, in pursuing bin laden, etc. i have no qualms acknowledging a job well done. but when he cut and run from afghan to gallop off into iraq, he fucked up big time. and he deserves to be gone just for that. as do all the people who supported it, democrat or republican.

honestly, im not so much voting for democrats this election as i am voting against incumbents, most of who just happen to be republican at the moment.

dg1979us

inmytree wrote:

I agree in part...honestly, if we would have found WMD's I would have said I was wrong and bush was right...

if FEMA would have been in NO within 24 hours, again, I would have said bush did a good job...

if we caputured or killed bin laden, I would have praised bush and company...

I'm serious...I'm ok with being wrong...In fact, I wish I was "wrong" about a lot of things, but I really don't see that I am....

I think a lot of those on the "left" are ok with being "wrong" too, I really do think that, but hey, I could be wrong...

Well I may have misread what you meant a bit. I was referring to people thinking they are right based on philosophies or idelogical differences. On the specific tangible issues like you mention with above I agree with you on. They should be able to just say they were wrong.

cornnifer

inmytree wrote:

I also think religion plays a huge role in this whole thing, as well and hate and fear...I'm serious...there is a large portion of this population that are afraid...afraid of gays, muslums, non-whites, and "liberals"....

Call it what you want, fear or moral opposition", makes no difference. The fact is that the majority of Americans, "religious" or otherwise, do not support gay marriage. As long as democrats try to stand toe-to-toe with republicans, and slug it out over this issue, a complete non-issu really, not only will they look just as stupid, they will lose.
Blame it on religion all you want. The truth is religion speakes much more to issues involving War, poverty, etc. than it does to homosexuality or gay marriage. The left needs to force the right to deal with these issues. They also need to stop gagging the spirtual elements of the left.

inmytree

dg1979us wrote:

Well I may have misread what you meant a bit. I was referring to people thinking they are right based on philosophies or idelogical differences. On the specific tangible issues like you mention with above I agree with you on. They should be able to just say they were wrong.

yup, and I agree with you...after my reply, I thought about what you wrote just above, and you are correct....