Democrats, I am disappointed

WindNoSail

I expect that conservatives are going to outdo you in a few years, again. How do I know this? Well, if you look around there really hasn't been any substance to this election from the democrats, so if they win it will be for nothing. It has been all about Bush. You can tell me what you are against, but not what you are for...you need to think about that because even if you win this election, you have actually lost - we have all lost. We all loose because there is no change, no belief beyond Bush is a bad guy. I don't expect anything good to come out of this election. I expect lots of fighting, but fighting for what I do not know.

Some point at least a year or more ago, I was hopeful that people would see that attacking Bush was just an easy fight, politics as usual and was not progressive. Most people supported the war in 2003 including our politicians, but everyone wants to say it is Bush's fault now, even most of you. Democrats in good conscience would have opposed the war if they thought there was reason to not go after Iraq, but I didn't hear it. At least not based on bad intellegence. Everyone believed the WMD's were there. So I know that Dems blame Bush only because they are political, not truthful servants of our republic.

So, I was hopeful that YOU would provide third party minded candidates, pursue a new direction, more positive campaigns...but you missed it. There is nothing to vote for this election, just whether you hate Bush or think you think he is an okay guy. Most people won't even vote this time, definately less than the last three elections cycles. In the end, i would expect the right wingers to outdo you in the next ten years again, not by following Rush L or Karl Rove, but by following INDEPENDENT thinkers. That is my prediction and I think it is based in good analysis that the DNC hasn't a creative bone in its body politic. I don't think the Dems are very tolerant of independence, no they prefer mind numbed robots who fall in line with the party message. Just look at Lieberman?!? Red states are naturally more independent than Blue states so there is my prediction, it will begin here.

Ya, the dems are no answer to our future anymore than republicans. Meanwhile I guess I will have to let another decade pass in hope that the people will arise above the parties so the parties serve US and not themselves.

Goodnight, and I look forward to the legal challenges beginning tomorrow.

Yawn.

soulsinging

you're nuts if you think the red states are more independent. they will vote for whoever their pastor tells them to, as was proved in the 04 election.

you know the real reason people like you can't support the dems? they're too smart for you. you want black and white. you want a leader with "principles" by which you mean simply that you want a stubborn fool who will stick by a losing course to the bitter end solely becos he said it was the course he'd take and by god if it goes down, WE'RE GOIN WITH IT!! you want somebody who will ignore logic and reality and tell you plainly "this is what i believe and im sticking to it no matter what the fact say."

the democrats, unfortunately, are flexible. they are reactive. no, they don't share a unified vision, becos they recognize how futile and narrow-minded such thinking can be. they look at the facts and decide on a course of action, rather than deciding on action and facts be damned. you cannot accept nuance, it allows for too much grey/color. it's much easier to turn off your mind and believe that we're good and everyone else is evil and the world is black and white. sadly it isn't.

we've rallied around bush becos we know that what he is doing is the wrong course and any meaningful alternative the dems could come up with would be ignored by bush anyway, becos it came from the dems and wasn't his decision. so remove him. then we can figure out how to fix the mess he's made of our country.

i like that the dems dont have one grand moral, christian, bible ordained vision. i like thinking that they are amenable to different views and perspectives that are answerable to their voters back home. ill take that over one monolithic, authoritarian mindset any day of the week.

WindNoSail

soulsinging wrote:

you're nuts if you think the red states are more independent. they will vote for whoever their pastor tells them to, as was proved in the 04 election.

you know the real reason people like you can't support the dems? they're too smart for you. you want black and white. you want a leader with "principles" by which you mean simply that you want a stubborn fool who will stick by a losing course to the bitter end solely becos he said it was the course he'd take and by god if it goes down, WE'RE GOIN WITH IT!! you want somebody who will ignore logic and reality and tell you plainly "this is what i believe and im sticking to it no matter what the fact say."

the democrats, unfortunately, are flexible. they are reactive. no, they don't share a unified vision, becos they recognize how futile and narrow-minded such thinking can be. they look at the facts and decide on a course of action, rather than deciding on action and facts be damned. you cannot accept nuance, it allows for too much grey/color. it's much easier to turn off your mind and believe that we're good and everyone else is evil and the world is black and white. sadly it isn't.

we've rallied around bush becos we know that what he is doing is the wrong course and any meaningful alternative the dems could come up with would be ignored by bush anyway, becos it came from the dems and wasn't his decision. so remove him. then we can figure out how to fix the mess he's made of our country.

i like that the dems dont have one grand moral, christian, bible ordained vision. i like thinking that they are amenable to different views and perspectives that are answerable to their voters back home. ill take that over one monolithic, authoritarian mindset any day of the week.

You think my intellegence is an issue, hmm. Because you think I am south of the mason dixon line. Really, your arrogance is part of the problem. Talk to me in 5 years, you will be dissillusioned by then, but you should be by now. Put your faith in the dems and you are setting yourself up for a fall. Are you less than 25 years old? Anyone over 35 years old here who thinks knows exactly what I am talking about.

soulsinging

WindNoSail wrote:

You think my intellegence is an issue, hmm. Because you think I am south of the mason dixon line. Really, your arrogance is part of the problem. Talk to me in 5 years, you will be dissillusioned by then, but you should be by now. Put your faith in the dems and you are setting yourself up for a fall. Are you less than 25 years old? Anyone over 35 years old here who thinks knows exactly what I am talking about.

i am already disillusioned. the republican leadership of the last 12 years has raped every value for which i thought america stood. it's sickening to me. i've little faith in the democrats. but ill take a chance on an unknown over the appalling and repgunant policies espoused by the right any day of the week.

and since i live in chicago... twice on election day

WindNoSail

soulsinging wrote:

i am already disillusioned. the republican leadership of the last 12 years has raped every value for which i thought america stood. it's sickening to me. i've little faith in the democrats. but ill take a chance on an unknown over the appalling and repgunant policies espoused by the right any day of the week.

and since i live in chicago... twice on election day

Since I love Chicago, please vote on my behalf as well...for whomever you please.

My point is that I think we need new choices way outside the beltway in DC. I think they are all corrupt, they system is corrupt. Very few survive there that have real conviction, and so we need a huge change all at once to affect the system. And I wish the Democrats out here in the fields were pushing for independent canidates, but I guess the we have not reached that point.

igotid88

I don't think the Dems are very tolerant of independence, no they prefer mind numbed robots who fall in line with the party message. Just look at Lieberman?!? Red states are naturally more independent than Blue states so there is my prediction, it will begin here.

.[/quote]


The republicans fall in line with the party message also much more than the dems. And Lieberman is a closeted republican. And republicans aren't exactly leading us forward.

LikeAnOcean

Has there been any "substance" from either party??? I say third party is everyones best bet.. I haven't done my homework on the cantidates, but I'm voting either Democrat or third party tomorrow, given my options.

soulsinging

WindNoSail wrote:

Since I love Chicago, please vote on my behalf as well...for whomever you please.

My point is that I think we need new choices way outside the beltway in DC. I think they are all corrupt, they system is corrupt. Very few survive there that have real conviction, and so we need a huge change all at once to affect the system. And I wish the Democrats out here in the fields were pushing for independent canidates, but I guess the we have not reached that point.

id like that as well. meaningful alternatives would be nice. i voted third party for many years. but the republicans are too dangerous right now for that to happen. bush is slowly dismantling checks and balances, and the republicans have a stranglehold on the executive and legislative branch, and they're well on their way with the judicial. now is not the time to be diluting the only opposition we have. get the republicans out of the legislative branch. it wont cause a dramatic change for the better, but it will stabilize things and finally check bush's authoritarian tendencies. then ill be willing to work for third parties. but at the moment, im far mroe concerned with stopping the one-party government we have now than anything else.

WindNoSail

soulsinging wrote:

id like that as well. meaningful alternatives would be nice. i voted third party for many years. but the republicans are too dangerous right now for that to happen. bush is slowly dismantling checks and balances, and the republicans have a stranglehold on the executive and legislative branch, and they're well on their way with the judicial. now is not the time to be diluting the only opposition we have. get the republicans out of the legislative branch. it wont cause a dramatic change for the better, but it will stabilize things and finally check bush's authoritarian tendencies. then ill be willing to work for third parties. but at the moment, im far mroe concerned with stopping the one-party government we have now than anything else.

I can see the line of thinking there, but my concern is that is exactly what the Democrats have counted on, and played it well. But, will they be different, will they change or just be a continuum of the same? I think they are not really a hedge against Bush, but more of a capitalizer on the power they desire.

Iraq is not going away, regardless. Not with either party.

prism

soulsinging wrote:

id like that as well. meaningful alternatives would be nice. i voted third party for many years. but the republicans are too dangerous right now for that to happen. bush is slowly dismantling checks and balances, and the republicans have a stranglehold on the executive and legislative branch, and they're well on their way with the judicial. now is not the time to be diluting the only opposition we have. get the republicans out of the legislative branch. it wont cause a dramatic change for the better, but it will stabilize things and finally check bush's authoritarian tendencies. then ill be willing to work for third parties. but at the moment, im far mroe concerned with stopping the one-party government we have now than anything else.

Exactly.


btw i'm over 35 and I agree with everything soulsinging has said in this thread

RainDog

soulsinging wrote:

i like that the dems dont have one grand moral, christian, bible ordained vision. i like thinking that they are amenable to different views and perspectives that are answerable to their voters back home. ill take that over one monolithic, authoritarian mindset any day of the week.

It seems that if we have the Democrats in power, it will be as close as we can get to having more than two parties controlling Washington - at least considering our current "winner take all" election system. It's unfortunate, and I haven't given up on third parties, but right now I'll take what I can get.

And, as for the whole "Republicans will take it back in 10 years or so" - of course they will. And 10 or so years after that the Dems will take it back again. That's the way our country - a Democratic Republic - works. It's bad enough we only have two viable parties, with broad similarities in many areas. Having one party atain "total victory" would mean literal one party rule - which is a situation that's usually enforced rather than voted on.

Abuskedti

Don't Vote!

Purple Hawk

prism wrote:

Exactly.


btw i'm over 35 and I agree with everything soulsinging has said in this thread

then inform yourself, b/c anyone who is informed can't possibly believe what he's saying. seriously, take a step back and see what WindNoSail is saying, and the mindless cliched responses of people saying that if you are voting republican, then it's because you have told to do so by your religion. this is simply not the case, it's a complete fabrication and the reason the democrats continue to fail is that their supportors project their stereotypes onto what they think is the typical republican voter. i encourage you to think that way, b/c the party is dying, regardless of what happens today. and your stereotypes and arrogant attitudes towards the typical republican voter has helped contribute to it.

Byrnzie

WindNoSail wrote:

I think they are all corrupt, they system is corrupt. Very few survive there that have real conviction, and so we need a huge change all at once to affect the system.

I agree.

soulsinging

WindNoSail wrote:

I can see the line of thinking there, but my concern is that is exactly what the Democrats have counted on, and played it well. But, will they be different, will they change or just be a continuum of the same? I think they are not really a hedge against Bush, but more of a capitalizer on the power they desire.

Iraq is not going away, regardless. Not with either party.

im not so much talking about iraq as everything else the republicans have done.

soulsinging

Purple Hawk wrote:

then inform yourself, b/c anyone who is informed can't possibly believe what he's saying. seriously, take a step back and see what WindNoSail is saying, and the mindless cliched responses of people saying that if you are voting republican, then it's because you have told to do so by your religion. this is simply not the case, it's a complete fabrication and the reason the democrats continue to fail is that their supportors project their stereotypes onto what they think is the typical republican voter. i encourage you to think that way, b/c the party is dying, regardless of what happens today. and your stereotypes and arrogant attitudes towards the typical republican voter has helped contribute to it.

fact: the republicans won the 2004 elections solely becos of religious voters who showed up to vote against gay marriage becos their pastors told them to do so. it has been proven in ohio and other states. the "value voters" single-handedly swayed the 2004 election and they did it chiefly based on fear of fags and evolution. then their elected leaders promptly took the opportunity to sell them out.

Puck78

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prZlLheI-Ys

(even if I still think that you should still get rid of Bush)

mammasan

I'm neither Republican nor democrat, though I will admit to having voted for more Democrats than Republicans simply based on the factthat their stance on many issues closely resembles mine. Having said that I am extremely disillusioned with both parties. To me Republicans/Conservatives where always the party that wanted less government and more fiscal responsibility which this Republican party has decided to abandon.The Democrat on the other hand call themselves the opposition party but have failed to offer any solution to current issues facing this country. It's easy to say we don't support Bush on Iraq, on illegal immigration, on tax cuts for the wealthiest 1% but what are your solutions to these problem. They have offered no solution to Iraq, they have offered no solution to illegal immigration (I do agree with Bush's illegal immigration plan minus the useless wall), they have offered no solution as to where the money will come from to start to erase this massize debt we have. I may agree with the Dems on issues like abortion and stem cell research but that's not enough. they need to prove a clear strategy and they have failed miserably at doing this.

Purple Hawk

soulsinging wrote:

fact: the republicans won the 2004 elections solely becos of religious voters who showed up to vote against gay marriage becos their pastors told them to do so. it has been proven in ohio and other states. the "value voters" single-handedly swayed the 2004 election and they did it chiefly based on fear of fags and evolution. then their elected leaders promptly took the opportunity to sell them out.

what you did is propose a hypothesis, not a fact. and that hypothesis has been completely blown out of the water by all political science research.

ther is no evidence that "religious voters" hand an impact on the 2004 election.

All the political science research has disproven this myth...Hillygus and Shields (2005) is one of these, their (and they are liberals) conclusions are:

Once other factors and other issues are controlled for, “moral issues” played a very minor role in predicting the vote choice in 2004.

Interestingly, attitudes towards abortion and gay marriage both failed to achieve statistical significance in the 11 states that had gay marriage ballot initiatives.

The most important issue was attitudes towards the Iraq War. Views of the economy also played a major role.

Also, turnout in the 11 states with ballot initiatives saw no increase in turnout between 2000 and 2004. Again, sorry to bring science into the debate.

See, the simple evidence provided by the media doesn't tell us anything. The simple fact that most people thought moral issues were most important doesn't mean anything because it doesn't account for people's attitudes towards Iraq and the economy. When controlling for these factors, moral issues had no impact.

so who are the informed, and who are the arrogant projecting stereotypes?

I can email a copy of the research to anyone, but can't post it b/c of copywright issues.

inmytree

WindNoSail wrote:

I expect that conservatives are going to outdo you in a few years, again. How do I know this? Well, if you look around there really hasn't been any substance to this election from the democrats, so if they win it will be for nothing. It has been all about Bush. You can tell me what you are against, but not what you are for...you need to think about that because even if you win this election, you have actually lost - we have all lost. We all loose because there is no change, no belief beyond Bush is a bad guy. I don't expect anything good to come out of this election. I expect lots of fighting, but fighting for what I do not know.

Some point at least a year or more ago, I was hopeful that people would see that attacking Bush was just an easy fight, politics as usual and was not progressive. Most people supported the war in 2003 including our politicians, but everyone wants to say it is Bush's fault now, even most of you. Democrats in good conscience would have opposed the war if they thought there was reason to not go after Iraq, but I didn't hear it. At least not based on bad intellegence. Everyone believed the WMD's were there. So I know that Dems blame Bush only because they are political, not truthful servants of our republic.

So, I was hopeful that YOU would provide third party minded candidates, pursue a new direction, more positive campaigns...but you missed it. There is nothing to vote for this election, just whether you hate Bush or think you think he is an okay guy. Most people won't even vote this time, definately less than the last three elections cycles. In the end, i would expect the right wingers to outdo you in the next ten years again, not by following Rush L or Karl Rove, but by following INDEPENDENT thinkers. That is my prediction and I think it is based in good analysis that the DNC hasn't a creative bone in its body politic. I don't think the Dems are very tolerant of independence, no they prefer mind numbed robots who fall in line with the party message. Just look at Lieberman?!? Red states are naturally more independent than Blue states so there is my prediction, it will begin here.

Ya, the dems are no answer to our future anymore than republicans. Meanwhile I guess I will have to let another decade pass in hope that the people will arise above the parties so the parties serve US and not themselves.

Goodnight, and I look forward to the legal challenges beginning tomorrow.

Yawn.

yeah...it's all the dems fault...how dare they, as a party in control of NOTHING, how dare they speak out and not offer a plan for the choices and policies of the repubs...

lets see: 6 years later...NK with Nukes, Iraq with no end in sight, Iran giving us the middle finger, deficit spending, abramoff, foley, haggart, katrina, nothing done with Social Security, warrentless wire tapping, no oversight, VP shooting a "friend" in the face, nothing done on immagration (unless you count the billion dollar great wall of nothing), "stay the course" is now "we adapt", but still no real plan....and this is just off the top of my head...I'm sure there is more...

yeah, it's the dems fault....

edit: I almost forgot, just like bushy and company...no osama...

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

fact: the republicans won the 2004 elections solely becos of religious voters who showed up to vote against gay marriage becos their pastors told them to do so. it has been proven in ohio and other states. the "value voters" single-handedly swayed the 2004 election and they did it chiefly based on fear of fags and evolution. then their elected leaders promptly took the opportunity to sell them out.

Let's be fair. The vast majority of Americans, be they "religious or otherwise", are opposed to gay marriage. This WAS sadly enough a WAAAAAY bigger deciding issue than it should have been, but, democrats ALLOWED that to happen. Its a fight they will never win. If democrats want to return to power they must ignore this and other trivial "moral" issues. They must force republicans to engage REAL issues of REAL importance such as war, domestic poverty and hunger, tax cuts for billionaires, etc. Democrats will never win as long as they try to hammer it out over gay marriage. Americans in general just don't want that.
Furthermore the left in this country has a very spiritual element to it they can no longer gag and try to shut out. They must embrace it if they hope to win. They must understand that issues such as the ones i mentioned (war, hunger, tax cutd for the hideously wealthy) are in fact spiritual issues! They are moral issues! Force Republicans to deal with them, stop gagging the spiritual element of the left, and they will win.