How bad is Iraq?

WindNoSail

All these 'facts' come from Wickipedia:

Pearl Harbor 2403 military and 68 civilans killed (that was one day folks)

World War II resulted in the deaths of over sixty million people

World War I millions dead

Viet Nam- U.S. killed in action, died of wounds, died of other causes, missing and declared dead - 57,690. South Vietnamese military killed - 243,748. Republic of Korea killed - 4,407. Australia and New Zealand (combined) - 469. Thailand - 351. The Vietnam People's Army and NLF (combined) - 666,000. North Vietnamese civilian fatalities - 65,000. South Vietnamese civilian dead - 300,000.

Iraq - The icasualties.org website reports the death toll since the invasion in March 2003 as being 3,018 American lives (as of January 9, 2007). There have been a further 251 deaths among the troops of other coalition nations: Australia 2. Bulgaria 13. Denmark 6. El Salvador 5. Estonia 2. Hungary 1. Italy 33. Kazakhstan 1. Latvia 3. Netherlands 2. Poland 18. Romania 2. Slovakia 4. Spain 11. Thailand 2. Ukraine 18. United Kingdom 128.
Iraqi insurgents? Unknown, 30K? More?

As of November 4, 2006, the U.N. High Commissioner on Refugees estimated that 1.8 million Iraqis had been displaced to neighboring countries, and 1.6 million were displaced internally, with nearly 100,000 Iraqis fleeing to Syria and Jordan each month.

As far as war goes, this war isn't exactly a defeat for the US militarily. But I think most people see it that way.

We are winning the battles and losing the war. Why? No clear mission, politics leading the military, media influences, no declaration of war, party politics?

Someone tell me that the problem isn't just us, ie we are just weak minded little wusses who can't stomach a real war, and don't have the will to win...i hope that isn't it but it does worry me.

MrsFadedGlory

WindNoSail wrote:

All these 'facts' come from Wickipedia:

Pearl Harbor 2403 military and 68 civilans killed (that was one day folks)

World War II resulted in the deaths of over sixty million people

World War I millions dead

Viet Nam- U.S. killed in action, died of wounds, died of other causes, missing and declared dead - 57,690. South Vietnamese military killed - 243,748. Republic of Korea killed - 4,407. Australia and New Zealand (combined) - 469. Thailand - 351. The Vietnam People's Army and NLF (combined) - 666,000. North Vietnamese civilian fatalities - 65,000. South Vietnamese civilian dead - 300,000.

Iraq - The icasualties.org website reports the death toll since the invasion in March 2003 as being 3,018 American lives (as of January 9, 2007). There have been a further 251 deaths among the troops of other coalition nations: Australia 2. Bulgaria 13. Denmark 6. El Salvador 5. Estonia 2. Hungary 1. Italy 33. Kazakhstan 1. Latvia 3. Netherlands 2. Poland 18. Romania 2. Slovakia 4. Spain 11. Thailand 2. Ukraine 18. United Kingdom 128.
Iraqi? Unknown, 30K? More?

As of November 4, 2006, the U.N. High Commissioner on Refugees estimated that 1.8 million Iraqis had been displaced to neighboring countries, and 1.6 million were displaced internally, with nearly 100,000 Iraqis fleeing to Syria and Jordan each month.

As far as war goes, this war isn't exactly a defeat for the US militarily. But I think most people see it that way.

We are winning the battles and losing the war. Why? No clear mission, politics leading the military, media influences, no declaration of war, party politics?

Someone tell me that the problem isn't just us, ie we are just weak minded little wusses who can't stomach a real war, and don't have the will to win...i hope that isn't it but it does worry me.

This post clearly shows the reason why I stay away from this website... why do I think it will ever change?!?!?!?!?!?!?

hippiemom

I don't think we are "weak-minded wussies." I think that this country would be willing to sacrifice a LOT (and inflict an astronomical amound of damage on an enemy) in a war that truly had something to do with our freedom, our way of life. We have yet to hear the definitive word on why we are even in Iraq in the first place, the story has changed so many times. No one knows why we got in, no one knows how we plan to get out, no one knows what a "win" is supposed to look like. All we see is endless death and destruction, with no clear reason or strategy.

WindNoSail

MrsFadedGlory wrote:

This post clearly shows the reason why I stay away from this website... why do I think it will ever change?!?!?!?!?!?!?

What do you mean?

CorporateWhore

MrsFadedGlory wrote:

This post clearly shows the reason why I stay away from this website... why do I think it will ever change?!?!?!?!?!?!?

you stupid lib

MrsFadedGlory

CorporateWhore wrote:

you stupid lib

Example number 2

CorporateWhore

MrsFadedGlory wrote:

Example number 2

Yer a woman.

sapperskunk

MrsFadedGlory wrote:

This post clearly shows the reason why I stay away from this website... why do I think it will ever change?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Nobody on these boards has a clue what's going on in Iraq right now, to include myself who spent a year there. The media lies, BBC FOX CNN, it's all horseshit. Al Jazeera is borderline Al Qaeda, they had a hand in an attack I was involved in.

Everybody can speculate, it's so damn easy. Numbers are over-exaggerated by epic proportions, especially by left wingers.

Sewage? Power? Water? Getting better with what we had to work with.

Shiite militias are really screwing that place for everyone. We should have killed Sadr a long time ago.

MrsFadedGlory

CorporateWhore wrote:

Yer a woman.

Is this a question or a statement that only you get?

WindNoSail

hippiemom wrote:

I don't think we are "weak-minded wussies." I think that this country would be willing to sacrifice a LOT (and inflict an astronomical amound of damage on an enemy) in a war that truly had something to do with our freedom, our way of life. We have yet to hear the definitive word on why we are even in Iraq in the first place, the story has changed so many times. No one knows why we got in, no one knows how we plan to get out, no one knows what a "win" is supposed to look like. All we see is endless death and destruction, with no clear reason or strategy.

Yes, I agree...we are probably very similar to the pre-WWII generation in that we really dont' like getting involved in other peoples business, especially fighting their wars for them. No one should have an acceptance of war. We waited a long time to get involved, and it wasn't until Pearl harbor we had the will. If we had pre-empted, I think it might have changed the war.

I don't think we have won a war that we didn't declare it via Congress. I think that is telling, cause declaration puts the accountability on the congress and they directly answer to the people, in a way.

WindNoSail

sapperskunk wrote:

Nobody on these boards has a clue what's going on in Iraq right now, to include myself who spent a year there. The media lies, BBC FOX CNN, it's all horseshit. Al Jazeera is borderline Al Qaeda, they had a hand in an attack I was involved in.

Everybody can speculate, it's so damn easy. Numbers are over-exaggerated by epic proportions, especially by left wingers.

Sewage? Power? Water? Getting better with what we had to work with.

Shiite militias are really screwing that place for everyone. We should have killed Sadr a long time ago.

My son's friend is there now, and flatly said it is not as is reported. He seems to feel the Iraqi's want us there. But, it still sucks if you aren't clearly winning.

hippiemom

WindNoSail wrote:

My son's friend is there now, and flatly said it is not as is reported. He seems to feel the Iraqi's want us there. But, it still sucks if you aren't clearly winning.

My son-in-law's best army buddy was there until a couple of weeks ago, when he ceased to be anywhere, courtesy of an IED. His opinions seemed to mirror that of my son-in-law, who served there a year and a half ago ... of the people they met, some wanted us there and some didn't. Both men felt that our mission was unclear and that putting lives on the line without a clear reason and a clear strategy is a mistake.

MrBrian

sapperskunk wrote:

Everybody can speculate, it's so damn easy. Numbers are over-exaggerated by epic proportions, especially by left wingers.

Sewage? Power? Water? Getting better with what we had to work with.

Shiite militias are really screwing that place for everyone. We should have killed Sadr a long time ago.

dude, You would've had more to work with if you did'nt blow up half the shit to start off with.

Who are you/america to say who should die and who should live? america has no right taking lives and destroying countries.

sapperskunk

MrBrian wrote:

dude, You would've had more to work with if you did'nt blow up half the shit to start off with.

Who are you/america to say who should die and who should live? america has no right taking lives and destroying countries.

Hey genius, you know most of the power stations and water pumping facilities were using equipment from King Faisel's day, yeah that's right, the 1930's. The stuff was only around 70 years old, what do you think happened? We decided to replace, not repair. Looters don't help much either.

Keep watching your British Bullshit Channel or other form of media garbage and soak it up as nothing but the un-spun truth.

WindNoSail

hippiemom wrote:

My son-in-law's best army buddy was there until a couple of weeks ago, when he ceased to be anywhere, courtesy of an IED. His opinions seemed to mirror that of my son-in-law, who served there a year and a half ago ... of the people they met, some wanted us there and some didn't. Both men felt that our mission was unclear and that putting lives on the line without a clear reason and a clear strategy is a mistake.

I am sorry to hear that, that must be tough for you son and your daughter, a reminder to both of them of the danger.

So, what is a clear mission? How is it the we knew we had to win some wars, and others it seems unclear exactly what we are supposed to do. It would seem logical you would never enter a war you didn't think you had to win, but it seems in practice that doesn't always happen.

In reality, we are fighting people who kill civilians for sport. If we leave, it won't end...next time it will be on our terms.

MrBrian

sapperskunk wrote:

Hey genius, you know most of the power stations and water pumping facilities were using equipment from King Faisel's day, yeah that's right, the 1930's. The stuff was only around 70 years old, what do you think happened? We decided to replace, not repair. Looters don't help much either.

Keep watching your British Bullshit Channel or other form of media garbage and soak it up as nothing but the un-spun truth.

Yes I know this, but it was working, plus i'd like to add that america did'nt spend billions and billions and kill thousands and thousands or innocent people just to "replace" water pumps and btw, The looters are a direct result of americas actions in Iraq.

anyway, if america's so in love with building infrastrcuture, they should try working on some of the many US cities and towns that need help.

sapperskunk

MrBrian wrote:

Yes I know this, but it was working, plus i'd like to add that america did'nt spend billions and billions and kill thousands and thousands or innocent people just to "replace" water pumps and btw, The looters are a direct result of americas actions in Iraq.

anyway, if america's so in love with building infrastrcuture, they should try working on some of the many US cities and towns that need help.

Buddy, if some of it worked half the time, I would have been stunned. The looters have no justification to steal, they were stealing copper from streat lights and other things necessary to keep things workinh properly.

And as far as infastructure in the US, I'm pretty comfortable here in Seattle. No problems I can think of as of right now.

MrBrian

sapperskunk wrote:

Buddy, if some of it worked half the time, I would have been stunned. The looters have no justification to steal, they were stealing copper from streat lights and other things necessary to keep things workinh properly.

And as far as ifastructure here, I'm pretty comfortable here in Seattle. No problems I can think of as of right now.

You should see some parts of Orlando.
----

Well they are looters, what do you expect them to do? be building space ships? they are just doing what they do, j/k I'm tired. I guess i'll continue this later.

but before I go, point is, America fucked up big time. they continue to make a mess and history shows that they never learn from the mistakes they make.
and as far as justification goes. america is not justified at all in it's actions dealing with iraq.

hippiemom

WindNoSail wrote:

I am sorry to hear that, that must be tough for you son and your daughter, a reminder to both of them of the danger.

Thank you. He has lost friends there before, but this one has hit particularly hard.

WindNoSail wrote:

So, what is a clear mission? How is it the we knew we had to win some wars, and others it seems unclear exactly what we are supposed to do. It would seem logical you would never enter a war you didn't think you had to win, but it seems in practice that doesn't always happen.

In some of our wars ... the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWII ... there was no mistaking who the enemy was, or the nature of the threat they posed. Yes, it would seem logical not to enter a war without a clear plan to win, a clear definition of victory, and a clear exit strategy ... but I've never accused the Bush administration of being logical, that's for damn sure. We had none of those things in Vietnam either, and we all know how that turned out. The origin of the problem with this war was that we were led into it with lies.

WindNoSail wrote:

In reality, we are fighting people who kill civilians for sport. If we leave, it won't end...next time it will be on our terms.

It won't end if we stay, either. I was opposed to this from the beginning, we had no business destroying this country in the first place. But now that we've done it we have an obligation to finish it and to right as many wrongs as possible, and it's an obligation we cannot fulfill. From the very beginnings of this war, I've hoped to be wrong at every step, and I hope to be wrong now, but I don't think I am. We need to do something that we are incapable of doing. We've taken a lot of lives, we've destroyed a lot of resources, a lot of property, we've wreaked havoc with the lives of millions, and there's no way we can make it right. Not only that, but there's only a handful of people in the entire world who REALLY know why we went there in the first place (we can speculate, but we don't know for sure), and they're not telling.

Olberman was right on at least one thing ... Bush has become the president who cried "wolf!" The only way out of this now is simply to leave. It's not right and it's not honorable, but we don't have the manpower to do the right or honorable thing.

ONCE DEVIDED

GWB ignored the world, the U.N and invaded a soveriegn nation for no justified reason.
now he is ignoring the US congress and the american people.
bill clinton was crucified for getting a blowjob
you yanks- pull your finger out
geeeeezz

Cosmo

This kind of stuff makes me laugh... it is such a perfect example of the pathetic excuses used by its supporters and spotlights exactly what's wrong with this war.
Comparing war dead in WWII to Iraq is laughable at best. This is a grasping for straws to find a justification point for this war. America suffered many losses in World war II losses due to so many circumstances... such as trainned German Soldiers, Messerschmidt Planes, Tiger Tanks, 88mm cannons, MG-42 machine guns and Lugar and Mauser small arms.
And the ones that cry... the insurgents don't 'fight fair'. Well, would you be happy if we gave them jets and tanks and helicopter gunships with their insignia painted on the sides? That would be a 'Fair Fight', right?
And finally... the view point of the morons who believe that Americans are the enemy... not the Islamic Religious Fundamentalist that is willing to wage global acts of terror. Someone who disagrees with you... your political leadership... your political ideology... is seen as the enemy. To me... that is pathetic. A divided nation never succeeds. Maybe if you quit seeing some one who disagrees with you and focused on the real enemy in this situation, something constructive will result. Something our leadership should have done in 2003.