The debates will be awesome

Smellyman2Smellyman2 Posts: 689
edited September 2008 in A Moving Train
Obama will beat McCain like a drum.

Biden will run circles around Palin.

It will be a trainwork for the GOP.

Luckily, the GOP voting base doesn't care. As long as they say pro life and god bless a lot, they will continue to vote for the weak sauce.
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  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Smellyman wrote:
    Obama will beat McCain like a drum.

    This is not not the slam dunk you want to believe. I don't believe we've seen any evidence to back this up. Obama is the master orator. He is flawless with a script. He looks great, speaks well, perfect inflection, pauses and makes eye contact. There is absolutely nothing to criticize about his ability to work off of a script. But he comes across much less secure when he doesn't have his words written out. I think McCain may come off as much more sincere when they're both speaking off the cuff.
    Smellyman wrote:
    Biden will run circles around Palin.

    I agree.
    Smellyman wrote:
    It will be a trainwork for the GOP.

    We'll see. I think it is dangerous for Dems to set expectations too high. They've spend the last decade losing slam dunks in spectacular fashion.
    Smellyman wrote:
    Luckily, the GOP voting base doesn't care. As long as they say pro life and god bless a lot, they will continue to vote for the weak sauce.

    Yup. And as long as Obama says "hope" and "change" enough, his sheeple will fall in line as well.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • I believe the Obama and McCain debates will be a trainwreck.

    Obama stutters around too much and McCain's skull might explode if he gets mad.
    the Minions
  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    I think Obama is a better debater, but I don't think either he or McCain are particularly skilled at it. Biden's going to be fun to watch; he is an excellent debater.

    Speaking of which, does anyone know how Palin is as a debater?
  • NeilJamNeilJam Posts: 1,191
    I agree Obama and Biden will probably win their respective debates. Of course I think Kerry and Edwards did pretty good in the 2004 debates but Bush/Cheney still won the election.
  • Little known fact: Obama is an excellent speaker but a terrible debater. Just wait and see.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • Smellyman2Smellyman2 Posts: 689
    Little known fact: Obama is an excellent speaker but a terrible debater. Just wait and see.

    Little known fact: this has been a republican rumor/talking point for some time. Not true though. You will see.
  • flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    The debates are scripted in that the candidates usually dont actually answer the question asked but talk in a roundabout way off of a scripted answer.

    Just on a visual which many undecided Americans use instead of facts or issues (which is scary but true) :

    (1) Obama is much taller than McCain -- advantage Obama

    (2) McCain looks like Frankenstein, or at least a hybrid of a man's face mixed with the jowl of a chipmunk -- advantage Obama

    (3) McCain looks like he has a cast on his arm and shoulder the way he cannot raise his arm (from his crash injuries), just looks rather odd -- advantage Obama

    (4) Obama could be used an emergency radar installation with those big ass ears -- advantage McCain
  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    Little known fact: Obama is an excellent speaker but a terrible debater. Just wait and see.

    How could it be a little known fact, even if it was true? The guy has been on about 55 nationally televised debates in the past 12 months.
  • weenieweenie Posts: 1,623
    The debates are scripted in that the candidates usually dont actually answer the question asked but talk in a roundabout way off of a scripted answer.

    Just on a visual which many undecided Americans use instead of facts or issues (which is scary but true) :

    (1) Obama is much taller than McCain -- advantage Obama

    (2) McCain looks like Frankenstein, or at least a hybrid of a man's face mixed with the jowl of a chipmunk -- advantage Obama

    (3) McCain looks like he has a cast on his arm and shoulder the way he cannot raise his arm (from his crash injuries), just looks rather odd -- advantage Obama

    (4) Obama could be used an emergency radar installation with those big ass ears -- advantage McCain

    If I may, fellow Austinite....
    (5) Obama is quick on his feet (intellectually) while McCain's thought processes work slowly - causing him appear to be not as bright as Obama. But the Repubs will probably juice McCain up with some drugs to get those synapses firing faster.....
    ~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
    Mohandas K. Gandhi

    ~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
    Henry David Thoreau
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    Smellyman wrote:
    Obama will beat McCain like a drum.

    Biden will run circles around Palin.

    It will be a trainwork for the GOP.

    Luckily, the GOP voting base doesn't care. As long as they say pro life and god bless a lot, they will continue to vote for the weak sauce.


    What's a "trainwork"?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    Smellyman wrote:
    Obama will beat McCain like a drum.

    Biden will run circles around Palin.

    It will be a trainwork for the GOP.

    Luckily, the GOP voting base doesn't care. As long as they say pro life and god bless a lot, they will continue to vote for the weak sauce.
    I don't know. I thought Kerry ran circles around Bush in '04 and look how that turned out.
  • mca47mca47 Posts: 13,300
    Little known fact: Obama is an excellent speaker but a terrible debater. Just wait and see.

    Yet Hilary Clinton is known as an excellent debater and as far as I could tell Obama did just as well as she did in their debates.
    Also, since when has any debate response not been 90% a pre-scripted reply?

    Like others have said, Kerry and Edwards did better in the debates than Bush/Cheney and they lost so who knows what effect it will have...
  • Pats54Pats54 Posts: 276
    Smellyman wrote:
    Little known fact: this has been a republican rumor/talking point for some time. Not true though. You will see.

    He is terrible without a script in front of him. He was average at best out in CA at Saddleback Church.
  • Pats54Pats54 Posts: 276
    weenie wrote:
    If I may, fellow Austinite....
    (5) Obama is quick on his feet (intellectually) while McCain's thought processes work slowly - causing him appear to be not as bright as Obama. But the Repubs will probably juice McCain up with some drugs to get those synapses firing faster.....

    I don't agree that Obama is quick on is feet. He is average w/o a teleprompter. Bill Clinton was a master at this as was Reagan. People just think that Obama can do no wrong and has no weaknesses
  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    Pats54 wrote:
    He is terrible without a script in front of him. He was average at best out in CA at Saddleback Church.

    He's not terrible; it's not like there's not much evidence of his debating skills. I checked; 27 nationally televised debates in the past 12 months. If he was terrible, you'd think we'd know it by now? No one says he's the greatest debater, but I haven't heard anyone other than the people in this thread say he's terrible. If he was awful, there would have been some kind of consensus on it by now. Of course, if you're blinded by partisanship, it can make alot of difference.
  • DOSWDOSW Posts: 2,014
    The thing about Obama's debating skills is that while he doesn't have the smoothest style of debate speech (he tends to pause mid sentence a lot, searching for words) he is always very substantive with his point. Substance over style. Which really helps him because of the smears against him which claim he's got no substance, only style.

    Obama vs McCain will be a good debate. Biden should destroy Palin though... if he doesn't I'll be very disappointed. It would be like the Houston Texans of a couple years ago beating the New England Patriots.
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • It's really too bad the 6 people who are running for the Presidency aren't all going to be up on stage for the debates so we, as the citizens of this country, could actually hear what they all have to offer.

    Only 2 out of the 6

    Oh, and what a surprise, the 2 participants happen to be members of the 2 major parties who also changed all of the rules for Presidential debates after little Ross Perot scared the shit out of them.

    The CPD, Commission of Presidential Debates, hosted by the D's & R's.

    Nothing like kicking The League of Women Voters in the ass while they were at it.


    Got on for a short ride, but I need to get off at the next stop of the Moving Train.

    :D
  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    I think Obama vs. McCain will be a good debate simply because neither would likely blow out the other; neither of them are very good; McCain himself has said he's not such a great debater.

    Debates these days are such bullshit anyway; I don't think your ability to condense your point, removing all intelligence from your answer so you can fit it into a one minute soundbite, is a good test of your abilities as a president.
  • EnkiduEnkidu So Cal Posts: 2,996
    I think Sarah Palin has the edge in the swimsuit competition.

    Oh wait - am I getting the debates mixed up with something else...
  • mca47mca47 Posts: 13,300
    Pats54 wrote:
    He is terrible without a script in front of him. He was average at best out in CA at Saddleback Church.
    Why, because he didn't get as many cheers from the religious nut-bags in the audience?

    Please! He was in the lion's den on that forum.


    Sure, his responses took longer but they were more thought out than McCain's one line and often one word responses.
    I wish everything in life is so black and white that could be summed up in half a second, but unfortunately it isn't.
    God for bid we get someone who thinks rather than just reacts.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    Republicans are on the bottom looking up and they may not reach the top again.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • Jimmydean55Jimmydean55 Posts: 1,418
    I watched Obama debate Alan Keyes here in IL when they were running for senate. Obama is a fine debater, although, it doesn't take much to beat Alan Keyes. I have the same feeling for Obama v McCain.
    Smellyman wrote:
    Luckily, the GOP voting base doesn't care. As long as they say pro life and god bless a lot, they will continue to vote for the weak sauce.

    Don't forget 9-11...
  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    I watched Obama debate Alan Keyes here in IL when they were running for senate. Obama is a fine debater, although, it doesn't take much to beat Alan Keyes. I have the same feeling for Obama v McCain.



    I was reading an article today that said how, although Obama's performance in the national debates wasn't bad, that he was far far better in the debates for the U.S. Senate. I don't know why; maybe he fares better in debates against one opponent instead of trying to get above the din of ten plus candidates.
  • RiderRider Posts: 129
    Obama has not been a terrific debater when I have seen him. Not bad at all but definitely not great either. I am not sure that McCain is any better though. Biden should absolutely destroy Palin but that could work against him if he goes on the attack at all. Most people dont like to watch women get beaten up.
    We all walk the Long Road...

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  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    Rider wrote:
    Obama has not been a terrific debater when I have seen him. Not bad at all but definitely not great either. I am not sure that McCain is any better though. Biden should absolutely destroy Palin but that could work against him if he goes on the attack at all. Most people dont like to watch women get beaten up.


    Luckily Biden has between now and then to drill that into his head continuously. However, he should not let her get a free pass, either; while it's incredible that a woman is on the ticket, she must be judged on her merit and ability to grasp the issues. Biden shouldn't overdo it, but he shouldn't be hands off either. He just needs to make it overtly clear that he's a better vice presidential candidate without being an asshole about it.
  • digster wrote:
    while it's incredible that a woman is on the ticket, she must be judged on her merit

    Excellent idea!! Let's apply that standard to affirmative action policies.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    Excellent idea!! Let's apply that standard to affirmative action policies.

    Admission to a college of 15,000 for a minority applicant that is 98% white.

    vs.

    Leader of the free world.

    Obviously and easily comparable, of course.

    However, I agree with you. There should be affirmative action, but it should be based upon poverty, not race. You would achieve practically the same results in terms of demographics (since Americans living below the poverty line are overwhelmingly minorities) and you wouldn't have the ridiculous 'reverse racism' claims.
  • digster wrote:
    However, I agree with you. There should be affirmative action, but it should be based upon poverty, not race. You would achieve practically the same results in terms of demographics (since Americans living below the poverty line are overwhelmingly minorities) and you wouldn't have the ridiculous 'reverse racism' claims.


    That's called socialism.

    I also don't believe that reverse racism claims are "ridiculous". I think it's exactly what's going on. Anytime you base something on race, it is indeed racist to people of another race.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    That's called socialism.

    I also don't believe that reverse racism claims are "ridiculous". I think it's exactly what's going on. Anytime you base something on race, it is indeed racist to people of another race.

    That is not called socialism. Calling it so is inflammatory. It's certainly progressive and big-government oriented, so criticize it for that. You don't see me calling Bush a Nazi for his tactics, although if you go far enough to the right (at least socially) that's what you get.

    Reverse racism claims are ridiculous because it requires that you stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and pretend that everyone in this country has an identical history with identical equality. Everyone can pick themselves up by their own bootstraps because everybody was born with a clean slate. This is quite simply untrue. An entire population of this country was held under bondage for over 400 years, and the freedom of this population occurred only several generations ago. Do you think something like that goes away overnight? Or even over 100 years? It doesn't, especially when we fail to address the underlying problems that still exist (ghettoized neighborhoods, lack of money going to these neighborhoods, etc).

    However, I agree; affirmative action is not a great program because it is a band-aid on a bullet wound. We need to address this inequality and work to avert it, or we will just have people of the same race and income status getting access to the best education, which means they get the best jobs, which mean their children get the best education, and the cycle repeats itself. They have a word for that; it's called aristocracy, and it's a perversion of the so-called American dream.

    However, fine. Don't judge on race. Judge on poverty. But I'm not willing to accept a country where the same families remain in power because they're the only ones with access to the necessary requirements.
  • Smellyman wrote:
    Obama will beat McCain like a drum.

    Maybe. Unless the teleprompter breaks. Then Obama says more "ummmms" than a Buddhist monk.
    Biden will run circles around Palin.

    Maybe, but I doubt it. The genius of McCain choosing a woman as VP is that people instictively do not like to see men placing women in distress. Biden is going to have to soften some of his rhetoric and barbs, lest he be seen as bullying the poor, helpless damsel.

    It isn't fair. And it's highly sexist. But it's the truth.

    Choosing Palin as VP pretty much neuters Biden as a debate attack dog.

    I really think the debates will be interesting, although in the end they are usually just reduced to platitude-laden soundbites.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
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