that is the million dollar question. In their shoes I'd have a tough time too.
actually, it's the 316 billion dollar question
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm
BAGHDAD — Only a third of the Iraqi people now believe that the American-led occupation of their country is doing more good than harm, and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll. (Graphic: Iraqis surveyed)
Asked whether they view the U.S.-led coalition as "liberators" or "occupiers," 71% of all respondents say "occupiers." and actually that number goes up to 82% in baghdad!
That figure reaches 81% if the separatist, pro-U.S. Kurdish minority in northern Iraq is not included.
only 33% thought the invasion did more good than harm, 61% think the invasion wasn't worth it
also,
according to CNN's website, “[The] National Intelligence Estimate was sent to the White House in July with a classified warning predicting the best case for Iraq was ‘tenuous stability’ and the worst case was civil war.
thanks for posting this. i think the numbers speak for themselves. and this was a usa/cnn poll, too. so there we have it. the u.s. military is the new saddam.
Another habit says it's in love with you
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm
BAGHDAD — Only a third of the Iraqi people now believe that the American-led occupation of their country is doing more good than harm, and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll. (Graphic: Iraqis surveyed)
Asked whether they view the U.S.-led coalition as "liberators" or "occupiers," 71% of all respondents say "occupiers." and actually that number goes up to 82% in baghdad!
That figure reaches 81% if the separatist, pro-U.S. Kurdish minority in northern Iraq is not included.
only 33% thought the invasion did more good than harm, 61% think the invasion wasn't worth it
also,
according to CNN's website, “[The] National Intelligence Estimate was sent to the White House in July with a classified warning predicting the best case for Iraq was ‘tenuous stability’ and the worst case was civil war.
does this mean the Iraqi's are "standing up"...? perhaps we can "stand down"...
And to answer inmytree's question whether 43,000 Iraqis would be dead without the US there - maybe, maybe not. That doesn't answer whether America is RESPONSIBLE for it. I tend to place blame on the ones doing the bombing.
first, thanks for responding to my question...I'm serious...
I do have to ask, though, let's say the US did not invade, how would the 43,000 have died...you say maybe, maybe not...I'm curious as to how the "maybe" would have happend...?
as for blaming the ones doing the bombing, I do to...I'm not giving them a free pass, nor do I support it, in fact, I think it's f-n evil, horrible, and tragic and it should stop, however, I understand the bombing would not be occuring if the US had not invaded....
first, thanks for responding to my question...I'm serious...
I do have to ask, though, let's say the US did not invade, how would the 43,000 have died...you say maybe, maybe not...I'm curious as to how the "maybe" would have happend...?
as for blaming the ones doing the bombing, I do to...I'm not giving them a free pass, nor do I support it, in fact, I think it's f-n evil, horrible, and tragic and it should stop, however, I understand the bombing would not be occuring if the US had not invaded....
If the Bush administration had possessed any knowledge of Iraqi society and history then it would have been clear that an invasion would result in the destabilization and break-up of the country. the disparate religious groups were only previously held together by totalitarian rule, which, once undermined would unleash a hornets nest of sectarian strife and the fight for power by the two opposed sects - Sunni and Shiia.
Still, the mistake that many in the west are making now as a result of a concerted effort by the mainstream media, is that the majority of the violence in Iraq now is as the result of sectarian conflict. The truth, however, may well point to the majority of civilian casualties being at the hands of the occupiers. "Their most significant finding was that the vast majority (79 percent) of violent deaths were caused by “coalition” forces using “helicopter gunships, rockets or other forms of aerial weaponry,” and that almost half (48 percent) of these were children, with a median age of 8." http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2006/davies0206.html
GENEVA (AP) - Torture in Iraq is reportedly worse now than it was under deposed president Saddam Hussein, the United Nations' chief anti-torture expert said Thursday.
Manfred Nowak described a situation where militias, insurgent groups, government forces and others disregard rules on the humane treatment of prisoners.
"What most people tell you is that the situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," said Nowak, the global body's special investigator on torture.
"The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it has been in the times of Saddam Hussein."
Nowak, an Austrian law professor, was in Geneva to present a report on detainee conditions at the U.S. prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, as well as to brief the UN Human Rights Council, the global body's top rights watchdog, on the situation of torture in countries around the world.
He said that some allegations of torture in Iraq he received were undoubtedly credible.
Government forces were among the perpetrators, Nowak said, citing "very serious allegations of torture within the official Iraqi detention centres."
"You have terrorist groups, you have the military, you have police, you have these militias. There are so many people who are actually abducted, seriously tortured and finally killed," Nowak told reporters at the UN's European headquarters. "It's not just torture by the government. There are much more brutal methods of torture you'll find by private militias."
Nowak has yet to make an official visit to Iraq, and said such a mission would not be feasible as long as the security situation was so dangerous. He based his comments on interviews with people during a visit to Amman, Jordan and other sources.
"You find these bodies with very heavy and very serious torture marks," he said. "Many of these allegations, I have no doubt that they are credible."
I think a lot of people here are taking the question the wrong way....meaning if you think the poster is saying that 43,000 civilians were killed BY the American army you are seriously mistaken....I think the main point to get is that these deaths most likely would not have occurred if America had either
a) Not invaded a country based on false info.
b) Actually listened to the people (mostly people on the left) about serious set-backs that would occur pre-Iraq invasion...meaning listen to those that predicted sectarian violence.....
America is not directly (meaning soldier killing civilian) related to the deaths thats for sure (well some, as some here like to term, "collateral damage")...however they have incontributed mostly indirectly (invasion led to this violence) to the chaos that now engulfs this nation.....
ha ha ha...I noticed those who are against the "blame America" metalilty won't address one simple question: Would 43,000 Iraqi civilians be dead if the US had not invaded...?
Of course. I know you don't want to hear that death occurs outside of the US sphere of influence, but:
Along with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
seriously, could you give me a bit more information on The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq....I could seem to find much on them, other then there numbers being on a bunch of right leaning blogs.....
seriously, could you give me a bit more information on The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq....I could seem to find much on them, other then there numbers being on a bunch of right leaning blogs.....
I'll look around. You have heard of the Human Rights Watch, though? Also part of your vast, right-wing conspiracy?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
so it's our gov't that's doing the sectarian killing? i'm not trying to take away the horror of innocent people dying. but c'mon, you cannot blame sectarian violence and every death in Iraq on america. There are plenty of foreign terrorists blowing people up over there as well. I'm not saying america is innocent but the post above seems to exonerate all other parties and indictes only america, which is just wrong.
Does fight them there so we dont fight them here ring a bell? That's more like intent.
Exactly. This "blame America" mentality is so tired. How is what we are doing in Iraq the "exact same thing" as 9/11? Are we just indiscriminately murdering innocent civilians? It's Iraqi versus Iraqi, and also foreign insurgents that are responsible for most of these deaths. But of couse, go on and blame America. I suppose we're also responsible for Darfur. Oh, no - Israel is responsible for that one according to the president of sudan: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060920/wl_nm/sudan_darfur_un_dc
This is the same mentality as those who just blame everything on the US.
What you need to understand is that's its not a "blame america thing; there is evidence right out for the many people in this country with amnesia to see. THere is good and bad...and we are not acting "good' right now, to not call it out is unforgivable, to support it is inhumane.
see, again you're trying to distance yourself from what's happening over there. you're saying, "it's not us, it's them" like you're just over there to provide cookies and milk or something. you saw what happened on 9/11. you didn't like it. so why would you do it to someone else??
If anyone can point out just one instance of an american soldier strapping on a suicide vest or loading his humvee with high explosives and heading to the local mosque or veggie market, then I might agree that the US is a cause of the violence over there. Until then...
_____________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!
- Benjamin Franklin
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went.
-Will Rogers
_____________________
If anyone can point out just one instance of an american soldier strapping on a suicide vest or loading his humvee with high explosives and heading to the local mosque or veggie market, then I might agree that the US is a cause of the violence over there. Until then...
How bout an entire GOVERMENT that knows their action (action without basis) will result in the death of THOUSANDS of dead civilians? If you want specific examples...
Five soldiers charged in Iraq rape-murder case
Mahmoudiya mayor says alleged rape victim was 14
Sunday, July 9, 2006; Posted: 10:46 p.m. EDT (02:46 GMT)
Steven Green, seen in a March, 2005, photo, is charged with rape and murder in the Mahmoudiya case.
Image:
A fifth soldier is accused of dereliction of duty for failing to report the offenses.
All five are charged with conspiring with former Pfc. Steven D. Green to commit the crimes, the military said, in connection with the incident in March in Mahmoudiya, Iraq.
There have been conflicting reports about the alleged rape victim's age. Sunday, Reuters news agency released documents indicating that she was 14.
Reuters said identification cards and death certificates give the victim's date of birth as August 19, 1991.
The mayor of Mahmoudiya confirmed that birth date to CNN.
However, a Justice Department affidavit in the case against Green says investigators estimated victim's age at about 25, while the U.S. military said she was 20.
The U.S. military statement Sunday made clear that officials are aware of the discrepancies and that her age is an important part of the investigation.
Green has been charged in a U.S. civilian court with rape and murder. Last week he pleaded not guilty in federal court in Kentucky.
Prosecutors have said Green shot and killed an Iraqi man, woman and child before raping a young female from the same family and killing her. (Watch leaders disagree on 'American justice' -- 1:24)
A Justice Department affidavit says Green and other soldiers planned to rape a young woman who lived near the checkpoint they manned in Mahmoudiya.
The affidavit says three soldiers allegedly accompanied Green into the house, and another soldier was told to monitor the radio while the assault took place.
The affidavit says Green shot the woman's relatives, including a girl of about 5; raped the young woman; then fatally shot her.
Soldiers are quoted in the affidavit as telling investigators that Green and his companions then set the family's house afire, threw an AK-47 rifle used in the killings into a canal and burned their bloodstained clothing.
Green was honorably discharged from the Army before the incident came to light after being diagnosed with an unspecified personality disorder, according to court papers.
The military charges against the five soldiers were issued Saturday. The military, in its news release, did not name them.
A U.S. defense official told CNN the five soldiers are still on their base in the Mahmoudiya area, have had their weapons taken away, and are being escorted everywhere they go on the base.
Green remains behind bars in Louisville, Kentucky.
The military, in its news release Sunday, wrote that the charges are "merely an accusation. Those accused are presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."
The statement said the soldiers still on active duty will face an Article 32 investigation, similar to a grand jury hearing in civilian law. The Article 32 proceeding will determine whether there is enough evidence to place them on trial.
i was watching bill clinton being interviewed by larry king last night. during the interview they were showing statistics at the bottom of the screen. i was shocked. 43,000 innocent iraqi civilians have been killed over there since the start of the invasion. 20,000 this year alone. 6,000 of them in july-august of this year. this is all according to the UN. and i think it's appalling that these numbers aren't talked about more. the only numbers that seem to matter are the 3,000 people who died on sept. 11. i'm sorry, but 3,000 people pale in comparison to the number of innocent people being killed over there. america needs to get over it already. you can't continue to go through life going on and on about 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11....what gets me is that america was attacked, yes. thousands of innocent people were killed, yes. but then you turned around and you did the exact. same. thing. you killed thousands, and continue to kill thousands of INNOCENT people in a country that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. do americans mourn those innocent people killed in iraq?? or do they only care about their own?? how many 9/11 anniversarys are they going to have where they all gather around and read each name of each victim...:rolleyes: i'm sorry, but that is just fucking ridiculous. you had one bad day, and you act like you've suffered the most. at least there were few enough casualties to be able to read the names of all the victims. try going over to iraq and reading the names of the 43,000 people who have been killed so far, and see how long it takes. get over 9/11, america, and start doing something about the mass murders taking place in iraq, for which your country and your government is responsible.
SO THE U.S. IS RESPONSBLE FOR ALL THE DEATHS? BULLSHIT. AT LEAST HALF THOSE ARE DONE BY SUICIDE BOMBERS.
THE U.S. DOES'NT TARGET CIVIALANS.
THERE ARE CASUALTYS OF WAR. GET OVER IT.
I’d thank my lucky stars,
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
If anyone can point out just one instance of an american soldier strapping on a suicide vest or loading his humvee with high explosives and heading to the local mosque or veggie market, then I might agree that the US is a cause of the violence over there. Until then...
believe me, suicide bombers are exactly the kind of fighters the american military wishes they had. they're sending americans to over there to die anyways, why not just strap bombs on them and scatter them all over the country and let them blow themselves up?? like i said, they're dying over there anyway. but at least this way, they would reduce the number of american casualties because one american suicide bomber could wipe out hundreds of iraqis at once. before you know it, mission accomplished. hell, just for fun, dick cheney and donald rumsfeld could play this war like a video game, and watch on their video screens from their secret hideouts the viewpoint of an american soldier with a helmet cam going into a mosque or a crowded market and they could detonate the bombs themselves by remote control while they drink scotch and smoke cigars. they'd have a "blast".
but of course, that would be wrong. and there's no money in it. they make more money manufacturing guns, bullets, tanks and bombs. but considering the shortage of american troops signing up to fight this "war", a few patriotic suicide bombers willing to die would be all that they need.
Another habit says it's in love with you
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
but these casualties wouldn't have happened if the US hadn't have invaded, geddit?
and although its only painful for me to see, i can't think how Iraqis and Afghans who have had friends and family killed would be able to "get over it".
but these casualties wouldn't have happened if the US hadn't have invaded, geddit?
and although its only painful for me to see, i can't think how Iraqis and Afghans who have had friends and family killed would be able to "get over it".
No it is just easy for some here to assume that their version of freedom is the best in the world and that these deaths are needed for a betterment of their lives (or for the protection of their freedom half a world away...).....
Makes me shake my head these people had to put up with a "ruthless" dictator for a long period of time just to have him replaced with nationwide violence because of a nation who has its own selfish interests at heart and for that matter believed this mission would be a trip to Disneyland (because "my gun is bigger then your gun" mentality) and decided not to look at the scenerio in a complex way (how about ignoring the concerns over sectarian violence that was voiced pre-invasion...oh yeah the war drums were beating so loud people didn't take time to think...just decided to act because revenge comes first and thinking second...wait a minute I believe hardly an ounce of thought was put into this invasion before or for that matter presently!)....
Also I believe some people here see it as "get over it" or "get on with your lives"....and yes the US INdirectly led to this chaos......without a doubt....so "get over it"......
However they are not directly responsible for suicide bombers however I never heard of any before the invasion....
The republic of fear is born again. The state of terror now gripping Iraq is as bad as it was under Saddam Hussein. Torture in the country may even be worse than it was during his rule, the United Nation's special investigator on torture said yesterday.
"The situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," said Manfred Nowak. "The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it had been in the times of Saddam Hussein."
The report, from an even-handed senior UN official, is in sharp contrast with the hopes of George Bush and Tony Blair, when in 2003 they promised to bring democracy and respect for human rights to the people of Iraq. The brutal tortures committed in the prisons of the regime overthrown in 2003 are being emulated and surpassed in the detention centres of the present US- and British-backed Iraqi government. "Detainees' bodies show signs of beating using electric cables, wounds in different parts of their bodies including in the head and genitals, broken bones of legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns," the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq says in a new report.
The horrors of the torture chamber that led to Saddam Hussein's Iraq being labelled "The Republic of Fear", after the book of that title by Kanan Makiya, have again become commonplace. The bodies in Baghdad's morgue " often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances, missing skin, broken bones (back, hands and legs), missing eyes and wounds caused by power drills or nails", the UN report said. Those not killed by these abuses are shot in the head.
Human rights groups say torture is practised in prisons run by the US as well as those run by the Interior and Defence ministries and the numerous Sunni and Shia militias.
The pervasive use of torture is only one aspect of the utter breakdown of government across Iraq outside the three Kurdish provinces in the north. In July and August alone, 6,599 civilians were killed, the UN says.
One US Army major was quoted as saying that Baghdad is now a Hobbesian world where everybody is at war with everybody else and the only protection is self-protection.
Iraq is in a state of primal anarchy. Paradoxically, the final collapse of security this summer is masked from the outside world because the country is too dangerous for journalists to report what is happening. Some 134 journalists, mostly Iraqi, have been killed since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.
The continuing rise in the number of civilians killed violently in Iraq underlines the failure of the new Iraqi government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki installed in May after intense US and British pressure. The new government shows no signs of being more effective than the old. "It is just a government of the Green Zone," said an Iraqi official, referring to the fortified zone in central Baghdad housing the Iraqi government as well as the US and British embassies.
In an attempt to regain control of the capital and reduce sectarian violence, government and US troops launched "Operation Together Forward" in mid-July, but it seems to have had only marginal impact for a couple of weeks. The number of civilians killed in July was 3,590 and fell to 3,009 in August but was on the rise again at the end of the month.
The bi-monthly UN report on Iraq is almost the only neutral and objective survey of conditions in the country. The real number of civilians killed in Iraq is probably much higher because, outside Baghdad, deaths are not recorded. The Health Ministry claims, for instance, that in July nobody died violently in al-Anbar province in western Iraq, traditionally the most violent region, but this probably means the violence was so intense that casualty figures could not be collected from the hospitals.
Nobody in Iraq is safe. Buses and cars are stopped at checkpoints and Sunni or Shia are killed after a glance at their identity cards. Many people now carry two sets of identity papers, one Shia and one Sunni. Car number plates showing that it was registered in a Sunni province may be enough to get the driver shot in a Shia neighbourhood. Sectarian civil war is pervasive in Baghdad and central Iraq. Religious processions are frequently attacked. On 19 and 20 August, a Shia religious pilgrimage came under sustained attack that left 20 dead and 300 wounded.
The Iraqi state and much of society have been criminalised. Gangs of gunmen are often described on state television as "wearing police uniforms" . One senior Iraqi minister laughed as he told The Independent: " Of course they wear police uniforms. They are real policemen."
On 31 July, for instance, armed men in police uniforms driving 15 police vehicles kidnapped 26 people in an area of Baghdad known as Arasat that used to be home to several of the capital's better restaurants. Gunmen dressed in police uniforms had also kidnapped the head of Iraq's Olympic Committee, Ammar Jabbar al-Saadi, and 12 others, in the centre of Baghdad. Ransom demands were made. The US military suspected that Baghdad police's serious crime squad may have been responsible and stormed its headquarters to search vainly for the kidnap victims in its basement.
It has long been a matter of amusement and disgust in Iraq that government ministers travel abroad to give press conferences claiming that the insurgency is on its last legs. One former minister said: "I know of ministers who have never been to their ministries but get their officials to bring documents to the Green Zone where they sign them."
Beyond the Green Zone, Iraq has descended into murderous anarchy. For several days this month, the main road between Baghdad and Basra was closed because two families were fighting over ownership of an oilfield.
Government ministries are either Shia or Sunni. In Baghdad this month, a television crew filming the morgue had to cower behind a wall because the Shia guards were fighting a gun battle with the Sunni guards of the Electricity Ministry near by.
Then... and now
1998 "The Commission on Human Rights noted...massive and extremely grave violations of human rights and of international humanitarian law by the Government of Iraq... hundreds of executions, some of which may have been extrajudicial executions... Torture and ill-treatment continued to be widespread."
2006 "The situation as far as torture is concerned is now completely out of hand... many people say that it is worse than in the times of Saddam Hussein. You find bodies with very heavy and serious torture marks. "
1998 In July a group of six people, including one woman, were sentenced to death by hanging on charges of organised prostitution, involvement in the white slave trade and smuggling alcohol to Saudi Arabia.
2006 On 7 September, the Iraqi authorities announced the execution by hanging at Abu Ghraib prison of 27 prisoners, including one woman, convicted of terror and criminal charges. It is the first mass execution since Saddam Hussein's rule.
The republic of fear is born again. The state of terror now gripping Iraq is as bad as it was under Saddam Hussein. Torture in the country may even be worse than it was during his rule, the United Nation's special investigator on torture said yesterday.
"The situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," said Manfred Nowak. "The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it had been in the times of Saddam Hussein."
The report, from an even-handed senior UN official, is in sharp contrast with the hopes of George Bush and Tony Blair, when in 2003 they promised to bring democracy and respect for human rights to the people of Iraq. The brutal tortures committed in the prisons of the regime overthrown in 2003 are being emulated and surpassed in the detention centres of the present US- and British-backed Iraqi government. "Detainees' bodies show signs of beating using electric cables, wounds in different parts of their bodies including in the head and genitals, broken bones of legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns," the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq says in a new report.
The horrors of the torture chamber that led to Saddam Hussein's Iraq being labelled "The Republic of Fear", after the book of that title by Kanan Makiya, have again become commonplace. The bodies in Baghdad's morgue " often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances, missing skin, broken bones (back, hands and legs), missing eyes and wounds caused by power drills or nails", the UN report said. Those not killed by these abuses are shot in the head.
Human rights groups say torture is practised in prisons run by the US as well as those run by theInterior and Defence ministries and the numerous Sunni and Shia militias.
The pervasive use of torture is only one aspect of the utter breakdown of government across Iraq outside the three Kurdish provinces in the north. In July and August alone, 6,599 civilians were killed, the UN says.
One US Army major was quoted as saying that Baghdad is now a Hobbesian world where everybody is at war with everybody else and the only protection is self-protection.
Iraq is in a state of primal anarchy. Paradoxically, the final collapse of security this summer is masked from the outside world because the country is too dangerous for journalists to report what is happening. Some 134 journalists, mostly Iraqi, have been killed since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.
The continuing rise in the number of civilians killed violently in Iraq underlines the failure of the new Iraqi government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki installed in May after intense US and British pressure. The new government shows no signs of being more effective than the old. "It is just a government of the Green Zone," said an Iraqi official, referring to the fortified zone in central Baghdad housing the Iraqi government as well as the US and British embassies.
In an attempt to regain control of the capital and reduce sectarian violence, government and US troops launched "Operation Together Forward" in mid-July, but it seems to have had only marginal impact for a couple of weeks. The number of civilians killed in July was 3,590 and fell to 3,009 in August but was on the rise again at the end of the month.
The bi-monthly UN report on Iraq is almost the only neutral and objective survey of conditions in the country. The real number of civilians killed in Iraq is probably much higher because, outside Baghdad, deaths are not recorded. The Health Ministry claims, for instance, that in July nobody died violently in al-Anbar province in western Iraq, traditionally the most violent region, but this probably means the violence was so intense that casualty figures could not be collected from the hospitals.
Nobody in Iraq is safe. Buses and cars are stopped at checkpoints and Sunni or Shia are killed after a glance at their identity cards. Many people now carry two sets of identity papers, one Shia and one Sunni. Car number plates showing that it was registered in a Sunni province may be enough to get the driver shot in a Shia neighbourhood. Sectarian civil war is pervasive in Baghdad and central Iraq. Religious processions are frequently attacked. On 19 and 20 August, a Shia religious pilgrimage came under sustained attack that left 20 dead and 300 wounded.
The Iraqi state and much of society have been criminalised. Gangs of gunmen are often described on state television as "wearing police uniforms" . One senior Iraqi minister laughed as he told The Independent: " Of course they wear police uniforms. They are real policemen."
On 31 July, for instance, armed men in police uniforms driving 15 police vehicles kidnapped 26 people in an area of Baghdad known as Arasat that used to be home to several of the capital's better restaurants. Gunmen dressed in police uniforms had also kidnapped the head of Iraq's Olympic Committee, Ammar Jabbar al-Saadi, and 12 others, in the centre of Baghdad. Ransom demands were made. The US military suspected that Baghdad police's serious crime squad may have been responsible and stormed its headquarters to search vainly for the kidnap victims in its basement.
It has long been a matter of amusement and disgust in Iraq that government ministers travel abroad to give press conferences claiming that the insurgency is on its last legs. One former minister said: "I know of ministers who have never been to their ministries but get their officials to bring documents to the Green Zone where they sign them."
Beyond the Green Zone, Iraq has descended into murderous anarchy. For several days this month, the main road between Baghdad and Basra was closed because two families were fighting over ownership of an oilfield.
Government ministries are either Shia or Sunni. In Baghdad this month, a television crew filming the morgue had to cower behind a wall because the Shia guards were fighting a gun battle with the Sunni guards of the Electricity Ministry near by.
Then... and now
1998 "The Commission on Human Rights noted...massive and extremely grave violations of human rights and of international humanitarian law by the Government of Iraq... hundreds of executions, some of which may have been extrajudicial executions... Torture and ill-treatment continued to be widespread."
2006 "The situation as far as torture is concerned is now completely out of hand... many people say that it is worse than in the times of Saddam Hussein. You find bodies with very heavy and serious torture marks. "
1998 In July a group of six people, including one woman, were sentenced to death by hanging on charges of organised prostitution, involvement in the white slave trade and smuggling alcohol to Saudi Arabia.
2006 On 7 September, the Iraqi authorities announced the execution by hanging at Abu Ghraib prison of 27 prisoners, including one woman, convicted of terror and criminal charges. It is the first mass execution since Saddam Hussein's rule.
The republic of fear is born again. The state of terror now gripping Iraq is as bad as it was under Saddam Hussein. Torture in the country may even be worse than it was during his rule, the United Nation's special investigator on torture said yesterday.
"The situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," said Manfred Nowak. "The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it had been in the times of Saddam Hussein."
The report, from an even-handed senior UN official, is in sharp contrast with the hopes of George Bush and Tony Blair, when in 2003 they promised to bring democracy and respect for human rights to the people of Iraq. The brutal tortures committed in the prisons of the regime overthrown in 2003 are being emulated and surpassed in the detention centres of the present US- and British-backed Iraqi government. "Detainees' bodies show signs of beating using electric cables, wounds in different parts of their bodies including in the head and genitals, broken bones of legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns," the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq says in a new report.
The horrors of the torture chamber that led to Saddam Hussein's Iraq being labelled "The Republic of Fear", after the book of that title by Kanan Makiya, have again become commonplace. The bodies in Baghdad's morgue " often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances, missing skin, broken bones (back, hands and legs), missing eyes and wounds caused by power drills or nails", the UN report said. Those not killed by these abuses are shot in the head.
Human rights groups say torture is practised in prisons run by the US as well as those run by the Interior and Defence ministries and the numerous Sunni and Shia militias.
The pervasive use of torture is only one aspect of the utter breakdown of government across Iraq outside the three Kurdish provinces in the north. In July and August alone, 6,599 civilians were killed, the UN says.
One US Army major was quoted as saying that Baghdad is now a Hobbesian world where everybody is at war with everybody else and the only protection is self-protection.
Iraq is in a state of primal anarchy. Paradoxically, the final collapse of security this summer is masked from the outside world because the country is too dangerous for journalists to report what is happening. Some 134 journalists, mostly Iraqi, have been killed since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.
The continuing rise in the number of civilians killed violently in Iraq underlines the failure of the new Iraqi government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki installed in May after intense US and British pressure. The new government shows no signs of being more effective than the old. "It is just a government of the Green Zone," said an Iraqi official, referring to the fortified zone in central Baghdad housing the Iraqi government as well as the US and British embassies.
In an attempt to regain control of the capital and reduce sectarian violence, government and US troops launched "Operation Together Forward" in mid-July, but it seems to have had only marginal impact for a couple of weeks. The number of civilians killed in July was 3,590 and fell to 3,009 in August but was on the rise again at the end of the month.
The bi-monthly UN report on Iraq is almost the only neutral and objective survey of conditions in the country. The real number of civilians killed in Iraq is probably much higher because, outside Baghdad, deaths are not recorded. The Health Ministry claims, for instance, that in July nobody died violently in al-Anbar province in western Iraq, traditionally the most violent region, but this probably means the violence was so intense that casualty figures could not be collected from the hospitals.
Nobody in Iraq is safe. Buses and cars are stopped at checkpoints and Sunni or Shia are killed after a glance at their identity cards. Many people now carry two sets of identity papers, one Shia and one Sunni. Car number plates showing that it was registered in a Sunni province may be enough to get the driver shot in a Shia neighbourhood. Sectarian civil war is pervasive in Baghdad and central Iraq. Religious processions are frequently attacked. On 19 and 20 August, a Shia religious pilgrimage came under sustained attack that left 20 dead and 300 wounded.
The Iraqi state and much of society have been criminalised. Gangs of gunmen are often described on state television as "wearing police uniforms" . One senior Iraqi minister laughed as he told The Independent: " Of course they wear police uniforms. They are real policemen."
On 31 July, for instance, armed men in police uniforms driving 15 police vehicles kidnapped 26 people in an area of Baghdad known as Arasat that used to be home to several of the capital's better restaurants. Gunmen dressed in police uniforms had also kidnapped the head of Iraq's Olympic Committee, Ammar Jabbar al-Saadi, and 12 others, in the centre of Baghdad. Ransom demands were made. The US military suspected that Baghdad police's serious crime squad may have been responsible and stormed its headquarters to search vainly for the kidnap victims in its basement.
It has long been a matter of amusement and disgust in Iraq that government ministers travel abroad to give press conferences claiming that the insurgency is on its last legs. One former minister said: "I know of ministers who have never been to their ministries but get their officials to bring documents to the Green Zone where they sign them."
Beyond the Green Zone, Iraq has descended into murderous anarchy. For several days this month, the main road between Baghdad and Basra was closed because two families were fighting over ownership of an oilfield.
Government ministries are either Shia or Sunni. In Baghdad this month, a television crew filming the morgue had to cower behind a wall because the Shia guards were fighting a gun battle with the Sunni guards of the Electricity Ministry near by.
Then... and now
1998 "The Commission on Human Rights noted...massive and extremely grave violations of human rights and of international humanitarian law by the Government of Iraq... hundreds of executions, some of which may have been extrajudicial executions... Torture and ill-treatment continued to be widespread."
2006 "The situation as far as torture is concerned is now completely out of hand... many people say that it is worse than in the times of Saddam Hussein. You find bodies with very heavy and serious torture marks. "
1998 In July a group of six people, including one woman, were sentenced to death by hanging on charges of organised prostitution, involvement in the white slave trade and smuggling alcohol to Saudi Arabia.
2006 On 7 September, the Iraqi authorities announced the execution by hanging at Abu Ghraib prison of 27 prisoners, including one woman, convicted of terror and criminal charges. It is the first mass execution since Saddam Hussein's rule.
*you double posted.
seriously, this is a friggin nightmare. one of the scariest things i've ever read.
Another habit says it's in love with you
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
i understand what you are saying, but this all started with the americans invading. and now the killings and the volence continue because you are still there. and don't underestimate the hypocrisy in what you have done. you were attacked, and thousands of innocent people were killed. but then you turned around and did the same thing. so, you're no better than those who attacked you. it's like in iraq, you got rid of saddam, but now you ARE saddam. you're the ones who are killing, and raping and destroying that country.
I'm neither supporting America or otherwise, but American soldiers haven't killed 43,000 Iraqis. What do you think they are doing? Going around and killing civilians randomly. The hundreds that are killed by suicide bombers are racking those numbers up. Let's be fair about it.
EDIT: I just came in on this, I appologize for the redundant post. I see this point has been made clear.
People, this is the downfall of government. I am certainly against war. But as long as humans form separate governments, countries like the U.S. must continue to kill people like Iraqis. It is the only way they can spread their WAY throughout the earth. I don't agree with their way but as long as you vote for a government you support war. It is that simple. As long as you vote or say the pledge or call the space between imaginary lines YOUR country, then you support war. If you call a country (any country) your own, YOU SUPPORT WAR! The purpose of human rule is to rule all and spread that rule. To be a country means to kill people from other countries. This pattern will never stop as long as we have divisions of any kind and we always will. How can you support any govenment and call yourself ANITWAR? It is rediculous and pitiful.
Oh, you say, you should vote, support, make a difference, rock the vote. AS LONG AS YOU VOTE YOU ARE SUPPORTING WAR. Don't argue this point, you will be wrong. WAR is the result of the formatiuon of government, or teams. This world and you people in it make me sick. How can you be so naive to get caught up in it. How can you be so sick?
AM I saying chaos should rule? Ah, the paradox. I don't want to be killed by choas, you say, so I will kill anyone who contributes to it. KILL KILL KILL!
I'm neither supporting America or otherwise, but American soldiers haven't killed 43,000 Iraqis. What do you think they are doing? Going around and killing civilians randomly. The hundreds that are killed by suicide bombers are racking those numbers up. Let's be fair about it.
EDIT: I just came in on this, I appologize for the redundant post. I see this point has been made clear.
maybe clear.. but its wrong. Without police and a Military - people in America would be dying by the thousands too. We have wiped out their security - and we stay to ensure they don't work together to build it up again. We stay to ensure it stays a country where we are free to dictate our will and use as we please.
some think in the end this will make the world safer. Well, that remains to be seen - I never thought of us as a people willing to sacrifice innocent humans for some illusive goal.
Clear and absolutely not wrong. Unless you ignore literal meanings of words. American soldiers have absolutely NOT killed 43,000 Iraqi civilians. You might argue that American foreign policy has, but to argue that American troops have makes me question motives of posters who would make that obviously erroneous claim.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
maybe clear.. but its wrong. Without police and a Military - people in America would be dying by the thousands too. We have wiped out their security - and we stay to ensure they don't work together to build it up again. We stay to ensure it stays a country where we are free to dictate our will and use as we please.
some think in the end this will make the world safer. Well, that remains to be seen - I never thought of us as a people willing to sacrifice innocent humans for some illusive goal.
The republic of fear is born again. The state of terror now gripping Iraq is as bad as it was under Saddam Hussein. Torture in the country may even be worse than it was during his rule, the United Nation's special investigator on torture said yesterday.
"The situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," said Manfred Nowak. "The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it had been in the times of Saddam Hussein."
The report, from an even-handed senior UN official, is in sharp contrast with the hopes of George Bush and Tony Blair, when in 2003 they promised to bring democracy and respect for human rights to the people of Iraq. The brutal tortures committed in the prisons of the regime overthrown in 2003 are being emulated and surpassed in the detention centres of the present US- and British-backed Iraqi government. "Detainees' bodies show signs of beating using electric cables, wounds in different parts of their bodies including in the head and genitals, broken bones of legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns," the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq says in a new report.
The horrors of the torture chamber that led to Saddam Hussein's Iraq being labelled "The Republic of Fear", after the book of that title by Kanan Makiya, have again become commonplace. The bodies in Baghdad's morgue " often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances, missing skin, broken bones (back, hands and legs), missing eyes and wounds caused by power drills or nails", the UN report said. Those not killed by these abuses are shot in the head.
Human rights groups say torture is practised in prisons run by the US as well as those run by the Interior and Defence ministries and the numerous Sunni and Shia militias.
The pervasive use of torture is only one aspect of the utter breakdown of government across Iraq outside the three Kurdish provinces in the north. In July and August alone, 6,599 civilians were killed, the UN says.
One US Army major was quoted as saying that Baghdad is now a Hobbesian world where everybody is at war with everybody else and the only protection is self-protection.
Iraq is in a state of primal anarchy. Paradoxically, the final collapse of security this summer is masked from the outside world because the country is too dangerous for journalists to report what is happening. Some 134 journalists, mostly Iraqi, have been killed since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.
The continuing rise in the number of civilians killed violently in Iraq underlines the failure of the new Iraqi government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki installed in May after intense US and British pressure. The new government shows no signs of being more effective than the old. "It is just a government of the Green Zone," said an Iraqi official, referring to the fortified zone in central Baghdad housing the Iraqi government as well as the US and British embassies.
In an attempt to regain control of the capital and reduce sectarian violence, government and US troops launched "Operation Together Forward" in mid-July, but it seems to have had only marginal impact for a couple of weeks. The number of civilians killed in July was 3,590 and fell to 3,009 in August but was on the rise again at the end of the month.
The bi-monthly UN report on Iraq is almost the only neutral and objective survey of conditions in the country. The real number of civilians killed in Iraq is probably much higher because, outside Baghdad, deaths are not recorded. The Health Ministry claims, for instance, that in July nobody died violently in al-Anbar province in western Iraq, traditionally the most violent region, but this probably means the violence was so intense that casualty figures could not be collected from the hospitals.
Nobody in Iraq is safe. Buses and cars are stopped at checkpoints and Sunni or Shia are killed after a glance at their identity cards. Many people now carry two sets of identity papers, one Shia and one Sunni. Car number plates showing that it was registered in a Sunni province may be enough to get the driver shot in a Shia neighbourhood. Sectarian civil war is pervasive in Baghdad and central Iraq. Religious processions are frequently attacked. On 19 and 20 August, a Shia religious pilgrimage came under sustained attack that left 20 dead and 300 wounded.
The Iraqi state and much of society have been criminalised. Gangs of gunmen are often described on state television as "wearing police uniforms" . One senior Iraqi minister laughed as he told The Independent: " Of course they wear police uniforms. They are real policemen."
On 31 July, for instance, armed men in police uniforms driving 15 police vehicles kidnapped 26 people in an area of Baghdad known as Arasat that used to be home to several of the capital's better restaurants. Gunmen dressed in police uniforms had also kidnapped the head of Iraq's Olympic Committee, Ammar Jabbar al-Saadi, and 12 others, in the centre of Baghdad. Ransom demands were made. The US military suspected that Baghdad police's serious crime squad may have been responsible and stormed its headquarters to search vainly for the kidnap victims in its basement.
It has long been a matter of amusement and disgust in Iraq that government ministers travel abroad to give press conferences claiming that the insurgency is on its last legs. One former minister said: "I know of ministers who have never been to their ministries but get their officials to bring documents to the Green Zone where they sign them."
Beyond the Green Zone, Iraq has descended into murderous anarchy. For several days this month, the main road between Baghdad and Basra was closed because two families were fighting over ownership of an oilfield.
Government ministries are either Shia or Sunni. In Baghdad this month, a television crew filming the morgue had to cower behind a wall because the Shia guards were fighting a gun battle with the Sunni guards of the Electricity Ministry near by.
Then... and now
1998 "The Commission on Human Rights noted...massive and extremely grave violations of human rights and of international humanitarian law by the Government of Iraq... hundreds of executions, some of which may have been extrajudicial executions... Torture and ill-treatment continued to be widespread."
2006 "The situation as far as torture is concerned is now completely out of hand... many people say that it is worse than in the times of Saddam Hussein. You find bodies with very heavy and serious torture marks. "
1998 In July a group of six people, including one woman, were sentenced to death by hanging on charges of organised prostitution, involvement in the white slave trade and smuggling alcohol to Saudi Arabia.
2006 On 7 September, the Iraqi authorities announced the execution by hanging at Abu Ghraib prison of 27 prisoners, including one woman, convicted of terror and criminal charges. It is the first mass execution since Saddam Hussein's rule.
*you double posted.
seriously, this is a friggin nightmare. one of the scariest things i've ever read.
yeah, yeah, yeah...what about... the school we built!?!? show both sides maaaaaan
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Comments
actually, it's the 316 billion dollar question
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
it's prob up to 317 by now.
thanks for posting this. i think the numbers speak for themselves. and this was a usa/cnn poll, too. so there we have it. the u.s. military is the new saddam.
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
does this mean the Iraqi's are "standing up"...? perhaps we can "stand down"...
first, thanks for responding to my question...I'm serious...
I do have to ask, though, let's say the US did not invade, how would the 43,000 have died...you say maybe, maybe not...I'm curious as to how the "maybe" would have happend...?
as for blaming the ones doing the bombing, I do to...I'm not giving them a free pass, nor do I support it, in fact, I think it's f-n evil, horrible, and tragic and it should stop, however, I understand the bombing would not be occuring if the US had not invaded....
i stand corrected.
If the Bush administration had possessed any knowledge of Iraqi society and history then it would have been clear that an invasion would result in the destabilization and break-up of the country. the disparate religious groups were only previously held together by totalitarian rule, which, once undermined would unleash a hornets nest of sectarian strife and the fight for power by the two opposed sects - Sunni and Shiia.
Still, the mistake that many in the west are making now as a result of a concerted effort by the mainstream media, is that the majority of the violence in Iraq now is as the result of sectarian conflict. The truth, however, may well point to the majority of civilian casualties being at the hands of the occupiers. "Their most significant finding was that the vast majority (79 percent) of violent deaths were caused by “coalition” forces using “helicopter gunships, rockets or other forms of aerial weaponry,” and that almost half (48 percent) of these were children, with a median age of 8."
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2006/davies0206.html
Manfred Nowak described a situation where militias, insurgent groups, government forces and others disregard rules on the humane treatment of prisoners.
"What most people tell you is that the situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," said Nowak, the global body's special investigator on torture.
"The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it has been in the times of Saddam Hussein."
Nowak, an Austrian law professor, was in Geneva to present a report on detainee conditions at the U.S. prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, as well as to brief the UN Human Rights Council, the global body's top rights watchdog, on the situation of torture in countries around the world.
He said that some allegations of torture in Iraq he received were undoubtedly credible.
Government forces were among the perpetrators, Nowak said, citing "very serious allegations of torture within the official Iraqi detention centres."
"You have terrorist groups, you have the military, you have police, you have these militias. There are so many people who are actually abducted, seriously tortured and finally killed," Nowak told reporters at the UN's European headquarters. "It's not just torture by the government. There are much more brutal methods of torture you'll find by private militias."
Nowak has yet to make an official visit to Iraq, and said such a mission would not be feasible as long as the security situation was so dangerous. He based his comments on interviews with people during a visit to Amman, Jordan and other sources.
"You find these bodies with very heavy and very serious torture marks," he said. "Many of these allegations, I have no doubt that they are credible."
I think a lot of people here are taking the question the wrong way....meaning if you think the poster is saying that 43,000 civilians were killed BY the American army you are seriously mistaken....I think the main point to get is that these deaths most likely would not have occurred if America had either
a) Not invaded a country based on false info.
b) Actually listened to the people (mostly people on the left) about serious set-backs that would occur pre-Iraq invasion...meaning listen to those that predicted sectarian violence.....
America is not directly (meaning soldier killing civilian) related to the deaths thats for sure (well some, as some here like to term, "collateral damage")...however they have incontributed mostly indirectly (invasion led to this violence) to the chaos that now engulfs this nation.....
Of course. I know you don't want to hear that death occurs outside of the US sphere of influence, but:
http://www.gbn.com/ArticleDisplayServlet.srv?aid=2400&msp=1242
sweet...the US has a 557,000 cushion...
seriously, could you give me a bit more information on The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq....I could seem to find much on them, other then there numbers being on a bunch of right leaning blogs.....
I'll look around. You have heard of the Human Rights Watch, though? Also part of your vast, right-wing conspiracy?
Does fight them there so we dont fight them here ring a bell? That's more like intent.
What you need to understand is that's its not a "blame america thing; there is evidence right out for the many people in this country with amnesia to see. THere is good and bad...and we are not acting "good' right now, to not call it out is unforgivable, to support it is inhumane.
If anyone can point out just one instance of an american soldier strapping on a suicide vest or loading his humvee with high explosives and heading to the local mosque or veggie market, then I might agree that the US is a cause of the violence over there. Until then...
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!
- Benjamin Franklin
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went.
-Will Rogers
_____________________
How bout an entire GOVERMENT that knows their action (action without basis) will result in the death of THOUSANDS of dead civilians? If you want specific examples...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/09/soldiers.charged/index.html
Five soldiers charged in Iraq rape-murder case
Mahmoudiya mayor says alleged rape victim was 14
Sunday, July 9, 2006; Posted: 10:46 p.m. EDT (02:46 GMT)
Steven Green, seen in a March, 2005, photo, is charged with rape and murder in the Mahmoudiya case.
Image:
A fifth soldier is accused of dereliction of duty for failing to report the offenses.
All five are charged with conspiring with former Pfc. Steven D. Green to commit the crimes, the military said, in connection with the incident in March in Mahmoudiya, Iraq.
There have been conflicting reports about the alleged rape victim's age. Sunday, Reuters news agency released documents indicating that she was 14.
Reuters said identification cards and death certificates give the victim's date of birth as August 19, 1991.
The mayor of Mahmoudiya confirmed that birth date to CNN.
However, a Justice Department affidavit in the case against Green says investigators estimated victim's age at about 25, while the U.S. military said she was 20.
The U.S. military statement Sunday made clear that officials are aware of the discrepancies and that her age is an important part of the investigation.
Green has been charged in a U.S. civilian court with rape and murder. Last week he pleaded not guilty in federal court in Kentucky.
Prosecutors have said Green shot and killed an Iraqi man, woman and child before raping a young female from the same family and killing her. (Watch leaders disagree on 'American justice' -- 1:24)
A Justice Department affidavit says Green and other soldiers planned to rape a young woman who lived near the checkpoint they manned in Mahmoudiya.
The affidavit says three soldiers allegedly accompanied Green into the house, and another soldier was told to monitor the radio while the assault took place.
The affidavit says Green shot the woman's relatives, including a girl of about 5; raped the young woman; then fatally shot her.
Soldiers are quoted in the affidavit as telling investigators that Green and his companions then set the family's house afire, threw an AK-47 rifle used in the killings into a canal and burned their bloodstained clothing.
Green was honorably discharged from the Army before the incident came to light after being diagnosed with an unspecified personality disorder, according to court papers.
The military charges against the five soldiers were issued Saturday. The military, in its news release, did not name them.
A U.S. defense official told CNN the five soldiers are still on their base in the Mahmoudiya area, have had their weapons taken away, and are being escorted everywhere they go on the base.
Green remains behind bars in Louisville, Kentucky.
The military, in its news release Sunday, wrote that the charges are "merely an accusation. Those accused are presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."
The statement said the soldiers still on active duty will face an Article 32 investigation, similar to a grand jury hearing in civilian law. The Article 32 proceeding will determine whether there is enough evidence to place them on trial.
SO THE U.S. IS RESPONSBLE FOR ALL THE DEATHS? BULLSHIT. AT LEAST HALF THOSE ARE DONE BY SUICIDE BOMBERS.
THE U.S. DOES'NT TARGET CIVIALANS.
THERE ARE CASUALTYS OF WAR. GET OVER IT.
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
believe me, suicide bombers are exactly the kind of fighters the american military wishes they had. they're sending americans to over there to die anyways, why not just strap bombs on them and scatter them all over the country and let them blow themselves up?? like i said, they're dying over there anyway. but at least this way, they would reduce the number of american casualties because one american suicide bomber could wipe out hundreds of iraqis at once. before you know it, mission accomplished. hell, just for fun, dick cheney and donald rumsfeld could play this war like a video game, and watch on their video screens from their secret hideouts the viewpoint of an american soldier with a helmet cam going into a mosque or a crowded market and they could detonate the bombs themselves by remote control while they drink scotch and smoke cigars. they'd have a "blast".
but of course, that would be wrong. and there's no money in it. they make more money manufacturing guns, bullets, tanks and bombs. but considering the shortage of american troops signing up to fight this "war", a few patriotic suicide bombers willing to die would be all that they need.
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
well then i guess the victims of 9/11 were casualties of war, too. get over it already.
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
and although its only painful for me to see, i can't think how Iraqis and Afghans who have had friends and family killed would be able to "get over it".
No it is just easy for some here to assume that their version of freedom is the best in the world and that these deaths are needed for a betterment of their lives (or for the protection of their freedom half a world away...).....
Makes me shake my head these people had to put up with a "ruthless" dictator for a long period of time just to have him replaced with nationwide violence because of a nation who has its own selfish interests at heart and for that matter believed this mission would be a trip to Disneyland (because "my gun is bigger then your gun" mentality) and decided not to look at the scenerio in a complex way (how about ignoring the concerns over sectarian violence that was voiced pre-invasion...oh yeah the war drums were beating so loud people didn't take time to think...just decided to act because revenge comes first and thinking second...wait a minute I believe hardly an ounce of thought was put into this invasion before or for that matter presently!)....
Also I believe some people here see it as "get over it" or "get on with your lives"....and yes the US INdirectly led to this chaos......without a doubt....so "get over it"......
However they are not directly responsible for suicide bombers however I never heard of any before the invasion....
By Patrick Cockburn in Arbil
Published: 22 September 2006
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00220/p1-220906_220251a.jpg
The republic of fear is born again. The state of terror now gripping Iraq is as bad as it was under Saddam Hussein. Torture in the country may even be worse than it was during his rule, the United Nation's special investigator on torture said yesterday.
"The situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," said Manfred Nowak. "The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it had been in the times of Saddam Hussein."
The report, from an even-handed senior UN official, is in sharp contrast with the hopes of George Bush and Tony Blair, when in 2003 they promised to bring democracy and respect for human rights to the people of Iraq. The brutal tortures committed in the prisons of the regime overthrown in 2003 are being emulated and surpassed in the detention centres of the present US- and British-backed Iraqi government. "Detainees' bodies show signs of beating using electric cables, wounds in different parts of their bodies including in the head and genitals, broken bones of legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns," the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq says in a new report.
The horrors of the torture chamber that led to Saddam Hussein's Iraq being labelled "The Republic of Fear", after the book of that title by Kanan Makiya, have again become commonplace. The bodies in Baghdad's morgue " often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances, missing skin, broken bones (back, hands and legs), missing eyes and wounds caused by power drills or nails", the UN report said. Those not killed by these abuses are shot in the head.
Human rights groups say torture is practised in prisons run by the US as well as those run by the Interior and Defence ministries and the numerous Sunni and Shia militias.
The pervasive use of torture is only one aspect of the utter breakdown of government across Iraq outside the three Kurdish provinces in the north. In July and August alone, 6,599 civilians were killed, the UN says.
One US Army major was quoted as saying that Baghdad is now a Hobbesian world where everybody is at war with everybody else and the only protection is self-protection.
Iraq is in a state of primal anarchy. Paradoxically, the final collapse of security this summer is masked from the outside world because the country is too dangerous for journalists to report what is happening. Some 134 journalists, mostly Iraqi, have been killed since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.
The continuing rise in the number of civilians killed violently in Iraq underlines the failure of the new Iraqi government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki installed in May after intense US and British pressure. The new government shows no signs of being more effective than the old. "It is just a government of the Green Zone," said an Iraqi official, referring to the fortified zone in central Baghdad housing the Iraqi government as well as the US and British embassies.
In an attempt to regain control of the capital and reduce sectarian violence, government and US troops launched "Operation Together Forward" in mid-July, but it seems to have had only marginal impact for a couple of weeks. The number of civilians killed in July was 3,590 and fell to 3,009 in August but was on the rise again at the end of the month.
The bi-monthly UN report on Iraq is almost the only neutral and objective survey of conditions in the country. The real number of civilians killed in Iraq is probably much higher because, outside Baghdad, deaths are not recorded. The Health Ministry claims, for instance, that in July nobody died violently in al-Anbar province in western Iraq, traditionally the most violent region, but this probably means the violence was so intense that casualty figures could not be collected from the hospitals.
Nobody in Iraq is safe. Buses and cars are stopped at checkpoints and Sunni or Shia are killed after a glance at their identity cards. Many people now carry two sets of identity papers, one Shia and one Sunni. Car number plates showing that it was registered in a Sunni province may be enough to get the driver shot in a Shia neighbourhood. Sectarian civil war is pervasive in Baghdad and central Iraq. Religious processions are frequently attacked. On 19 and 20 August, a Shia religious pilgrimage came under sustained attack that left 20 dead and 300 wounded.
The Iraqi state and much of society have been criminalised. Gangs of gunmen are often described on state television as "wearing police uniforms" . One senior Iraqi minister laughed as he told The Independent: " Of course they wear police uniforms. They are real policemen."
On 31 July, for instance, armed men in police uniforms driving 15 police vehicles kidnapped 26 people in an area of Baghdad known as Arasat that used to be home to several of the capital's better restaurants. Gunmen dressed in police uniforms had also kidnapped the head of Iraq's Olympic Committee, Ammar Jabbar al-Saadi, and 12 others, in the centre of Baghdad. Ransom demands were made. The US military suspected that Baghdad police's serious crime squad may have been responsible and stormed its headquarters to search vainly for the kidnap victims in its basement.
It has long been a matter of amusement and disgust in Iraq that government ministers travel abroad to give press conferences claiming that the insurgency is on its last legs. One former minister said: "I know of ministers who have never been to their ministries but get their officials to bring documents to the Green Zone where they sign them."
Beyond the Green Zone, Iraq has descended into murderous anarchy. For several days this month, the main road between Baghdad and Basra was closed because two families were fighting over ownership of an oilfield.
Government ministries are either Shia or Sunni. In Baghdad this month, a television crew filming the morgue had to cower behind a wall because the Shia guards were fighting a gun battle with the Sunni guards of the Electricity Ministry near by.
Then... and now
1998 "The Commission on Human Rights noted...massive and extremely grave violations of human rights and of international humanitarian law by the Government of Iraq... hundreds of executions, some of which may have been extrajudicial executions... Torture and ill-treatment continued to be widespread."
2006 "The situation as far as torture is concerned is now completely out of hand... many people say that it is worse than in the times of Saddam Hussein. You find bodies with very heavy and serious torture marks. "
1998 In July a group of six people, including one woman, were sentenced to death by hanging on charges of organised prostitution, involvement in the white slave trade and smuggling alcohol to Saudi Arabia.
2006 On 7 September, the Iraqi authorities announced the execution by hanging at Abu Ghraib prison of 27 prisoners, including one woman, convicted of terror and criminal charges. It is the first mass execution since Saddam Hussein's rule.
The republic of fear is born again. The state of terror now gripping Iraq is as bad as it was under Saddam Hussein. Torture in the country may even be worse than it was during his rule, the United Nation's special investigator on torture said yesterday.
"The situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," said Manfred Nowak. "The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it had been in the times of Saddam Hussein."
The report, from an even-handed senior UN official, is in sharp contrast with the hopes of George Bush and Tony Blair, when in 2003 they promised to bring democracy and respect for human rights to the people of Iraq. The brutal tortures committed in the prisons of the regime overthrown in 2003 are being emulated and surpassed in the detention centres of the present US- and British-backed Iraqi government. "Detainees' bodies show signs of beating using electric cables, wounds in different parts of their bodies including in the head and genitals, broken bones of legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns," the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq says in a new report.
The horrors of the torture chamber that led to Saddam Hussein's Iraq being labelled "The Republic of Fear", after the book of that title by Kanan Makiya, have again become commonplace. The bodies in Baghdad's morgue " often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances, missing skin, broken bones (back, hands and legs), missing eyes and wounds caused by power drills or nails", the UN report said. Those not killed by these abuses are shot in the head.
Human rights groups say torture is practised in prisons run by the US as well as those run by theInterior and Defence ministries and the numerous Sunni and Shia militias.
The pervasive use of torture is only one aspect of the utter breakdown of government across Iraq outside the three Kurdish provinces in the north. In July and August alone, 6,599 civilians were killed, the UN says.
One US Army major was quoted as saying that Baghdad is now a Hobbesian world where everybody is at war with everybody else and the only protection is self-protection.
Iraq is in a state of primal anarchy. Paradoxically, the final collapse of security this summer is masked from the outside world because the country is too dangerous for journalists to report what is happening. Some 134 journalists, mostly Iraqi, have been killed since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.
The continuing rise in the number of civilians killed violently in Iraq underlines the failure of the new Iraqi government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki installed in May after intense US and British pressure. The new government shows no signs of being more effective than the old. "It is just a government of the Green Zone," said an Iraqi official, referring to the fortified zone in central Baghdad housing the Iraqi government as well as the US and British embassies.
In an attempt to regain control of the capital and reduce sectarian violence, government and US troops launched "Operation Together Forward" in mid-July, but it seems to have had only marginal impact for a couple of weeks. The number of civilians killed in July was 3,590 and fell to 3,009 in August but was on the rise again at the end of the month.
The bi-monthly UN report on Iraq is almost the only neutral and objective survey of conditions in the country. The real number of civilians killed in Iraq is probably much higher because, outside Baghdad, deaths are not recorded. The Health Ministry claims, for instance, that in July nobody died violently in al-Anbar province in western Iraq, traditionally the most violent region, but this probably means the violence was so intense that casualty figures could not be collected from the hospitals.
Nobody in Iraq is safe. Buses and cars are stopped at checkpoints and Sunni or Shia are killed after a glance at their identity cards. Many people now carry two sets of identity papers, one Shia and one Sunni. Car number plates showing that it was registered in a Sunni province may be enough to get the driver shot in a Shia neighbourhood. Sectarian civil war is pervasive in Baghdad and central Iraq. Religious processions are frequently attacked. On 19 and 20 August, a Shia religious pilgrimage came under sustained attack that left 20 dead and 300 wounded.
The Iraqi state and much of society have been criminalised. Gangs of gunmen are often described on state television as "wearing police uniforms" . One senior Iraqi minister laughed as he told The Independent: " Of course they wear police uniforms. They are real policemen."
On 31 July, for instance, armed men in police uniforms driving 15 police vehicles kidnapped 26 people in an area of Baghdad known as Arasat that used to be home to several of the capital's better restaurants. Gunmen dressed in police uniforms had also kidnapped the head of Iraq's Olympic Committee, Ammar Jabbar al-Saadi, and 12 others, in the centre of Baghdad. Ransom demands were made. The US military suspected that Baghdad police's serious crime squad may have been responsible and stormed its headquarters to search vainly for the kidnap victims in its basement.
It has long been a matter of amusement and disgust in Iraq that government ministers travel abroad to give press conferences claiming that the insurgency is on its last legs. One former minister said: "I know of ministers who have never been to their ministries but get their officials to bring documents to the Green Zone where they sign them."
Beyond the Green Zone, Iraq has descended into murderous anarchy. For several days this month, the main road between Baghdad and Basra was closed because two families were fighting over ownership of an oilfield.
Government ministries are either Shia or Sunni. In Baghdad this month, a television crew filming the morgue had to cower behind a wall because the Shia guards were fighting a gun battle with the Sunni guards of the Electricity Ministry near by.
Then... and now
1998 "The Commission on Human Rights noted...massive and extremely grave violations of human rights and of international humanitarian law by the Government of Iraq... hundreds of executions, some of which may have been extrajudicial executions... Torture and ill-treatment continued to be widespread."
2006 "The situation as far as torture is concerned is now completely out of hand... many people say that it is worse than in the times of Saddam Hussein. You find bodies with very heavy and serious torture marks. "
1998 In July a group of six people, including one woman, were sentenced to death by hanging on charges of organised prostitution, involvement in the white slave trade and smuggling alcohol to Saudi Arabia.
2006 On 7 September, the Iraqi authorities announced the execution by hanging at Abu Ghraib prison of 27 prisoners, including one woman, convicted of terror and criminal charges. It is the first mass execution since Saddam Hussein's rule.
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
EDIT: I just came in on this, I appologize for the redundant post. I see this point has been made clear.
Oh, you say, you should vote, support, make a difference, rock the vote. AS LONG AS YOU VOTE YOU ARE SUPPORTING WAR. Don't argue this point, you will be wrong. WAR is the result of the formatiuon of government, or teams. This world and you people in it make me sick. How can you be so naive to get caught up in it. How can you be so sick?
AM I saying chaos should rule? Ah, the paradox. I don't want to be killed by choas, you say, so I will kill anyone who contributes to it. KILL KILL KILL!
maybe clear.. but its wrong. Without police and a Military - people in America would be dying by the thousands too. We have wiped out their security - and we stay to ensure they don't work together to build it up again. We stay to ensure it stays a country where we are free to dictate our will and use as we please.
some think in the end this will make the world safer. Well, that remains to be seen - I never thought of us as a people willing to sacrifice innocent humans for some illusive goal.
Clear and absolutely not wrong. Unless you ignore literal meanings of words. American soldiers have absolutely NOT killed 43,000 Iraqi civilians. You might argue that American foreign policy has, but to argue that American troops have makes me question motives of posters who would make that obviously erroneous claim.
yeah, yeah, yeah...what about... the school we built!?!? show both sides maaaaaan
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way