43,000 iraqi civilians killed so far

The Waiting Trophy ManThe Waiting Trophy Man Posts: 12,158
edited September 2006 in A Moving Train
i was watching bill clinton being interviewed by larry king last night. during the interview they were showing statistics at the bottom of the screen. i was shocked. 43,000 innocent iraqi civilians have been killed over there since the start of the invasion. 20,000 this year alone. 6,000 of them in july-august of this year. this is all according to the UN. and i think it's appalling that these numbers aren't talked about more. the only numbers that seem to matter are the 3,000 people who died on sept. 11. i'm sorry, but 3,000 people pale in comparison to the number of innocent people being killed over there. america needs to get over it already. you can't continue to go through life going on and on about 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11....what gets me is that america was attacked, yes. thousands of innocent people were killed, yes. but then you turned around and you did the exact. same. thing. you killed thousands, and continue to kill thousands of INNOCENT people in a country that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. do americans mourn those innocent people killed in iraq?? or do they only care about their own?? how many 9/11 anniversarys are they going to have where they all gather around and read each name of each victim...:rolleyes: i'm sorry, but that is just fucking ridiculous. you had one bad day, and you act like you've suffered the most. at least there were few enough casualties to be able to read the names of all the victims. try going over to iraq and reading the names of the 43,000 people who have been killed so far, and see how long it takes. get over 9/11, america, and start doing something about the mass murders taking place in iraq, for which your country and your government is responsible.
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Comments

  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    If the numbers for the dead mean nothing to the invading army, then why should they matter at all. ;) I mean, am I supposed to believe the UN?
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    get over 9/11, america, and start doing something about the mass murders taking place in iraq, for which your country and your government is responsible.

    so it's our gov't that's doing the sectarian killing? i'm not trying to take away the horror of innocent people dying. but c'mon, you cannot blame sectarian violence and every death in Iraq on america. There are plenty of foreign terrorists blowing people up over there as well. I'm not saying america is innocent but the post above seems to exonerate all other parties and indictes only america, which is just wrong.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • PickrPickr Posts: 161
    And how many died in Rwanda in the 90's while the world watched? 800,000 or so?

    That to me is a real tragedy where action should have been taken
    Stix and Stones may break my bones, but More than Words will never hurt me.
  • chopitdown wrote:
    so it's our gov't that's doing the sectarian killing? i'm not trying to take away the horror of innocent people dying. but c'mon, you cannot blame sectarian violence and every death in Iraq on america. There are plenty of foreign terrorists blowing people up over there as well. I'm not saying america is innocent but the post above seems to exonerate all other parties and indictes only america, which is just wrong.

    i understand what you are saying, but this all started with the americans invading. and now the killings and the volence continue because you are still there. and don't underestimate the hypocrisy in what you have done. you were attacked, and thousands of innocent people were killed. but then you turned around and did the same thing. so, you're no better than those who attacked you. it's like in iraq, you got rid of saddam, but now you ARE saddam. you're the ones who are killing, and raping and destroying that country.
    Another habit says it's in love with you
    Another habit says its long overdue
    Another habit like an unwanted friend
    I'm so happy with my righteous self
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    chopitdown wrote:
    so it's our gov't that's doing the sectarian killing? i'm not trying to take away the horror of innocent people dying. but c'mon, you cannot blame sectarian violence and every death in Iraq on america. There are plenty of foreign terrorists blowing people up over there as well. I'm not saying america is innocent but the post above seems to exonerate all other parties and indictes only america, which is just wrong.

    Exactly. This "blame America" mentality is so tired. How is what we are doing in Iraq the "exact same thing" as 9/11? Are we just indiscriminately murdering innocent civilians? It's Iraqi versus Iraqi, and also foreign insurgents that are responsible for most of these deaths. But of couse, go on and blame America. I suppose we're also responsible for Darfur. Oh, no - Israel is responsible for that one according to the president of sudan: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060920/wl_nm/sudan_darfur_un_dc
    This is the same mentality as those who just blame everything on the US.
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    i understand what you are saying, but this all started with the americans invading. and now the killings and the volence continue because you are still there. and don't underestimate the hypocrisy in what you have done. you were attacked, and thousands of innocent people were killed. but then you turned around and did the same thing. so, you're no better than those who attacked you. it's like in iraq, you got rid of saddam, but now you ARE saddam. you're the ones who are killing, and raping and destroying that country.

    You clearly don't understand, as you again state that we're the ones who are "killing, raping and destroying" the country. How so?
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    i understand what you are saying, but this all started with the americans invading.

    Bullshit. Innocents were dying in Iraq long before we arrived. We've certainly done nothing to minimize that, but to say that Iraq only became a violent place after our arrival is to ignore reality.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    i understand what you are saying, but this all started with the americans invading. and now the killings and the volence continue because you are still there. and don't underestimate the hypocrisy in what you have done. you were attacked, and thousands of innocent people were killed. but then you turned around and did the same thing. so, you're no better than those who attacked you. it's like in iraq, you got rid of saddam, but now you ARE saddam. you're the ones who are killing, and raping and destroying that country.

    i won't argue that our invasion caused instability and has led to bloodshed. But it is not only us who are killing, raping, and destroying (which does not make it right or justifiable). That's pretty much what i wanted to convey... it's a copout when sectarian violence is justified or excused or blamed on an american invasion...esp when the sectarian violence isn't against americans, that at least i could understand. I have no idea about the stats but it would be interesting to see how many innocent Iraqi's are killed from road side bombs, suicide bombers, execution style killings vs armed conflict with US troops. My guess is that most are killed from the former and I believe in personal accountability. America isn't making those groups fight with each other, they are choosing to fight each other. I firmly believe that if Iraqi's wanted to they could end this violence and work together. They could rat out the people working against stabilization and could start a new country, but until they truly want to, it won't happen.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • jsand wrote:
    You clearly don't understand, as you again state that we're the ones who are "killing, raping and destroying" the country. How so?

    how so?? your planes drop bombs, which kill innocent people. your soldiers(not all of them, but some) rape iraqi women and girls. and iraq is even more dangerous now than it was before.
    Another habit says it's in love with you
    Another habit says its long overdue
    Another habit like an unwanted friend
    I'm so happy with my righteous self
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    jeffbr wrote:
    Bullshit. Innocents were dying in Iraq long before we arrived. We've certainly done nothing to minimize that, but to say that Iraq only became a violent place after our arrival is to ignore reality.

    Downtown Bhagdad under Saddam or the slums of L.A.? Something about violence and you not having to be there.
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    I wonder, if America had not invaded Irak, would those 43,000 people be dead...?

    I'll answer: NO

    while the current situation has digressed into a Civil War, the antecedent was the invasion based on "faulty intel"...

    as for Irak being a "violent place" before the US invasion, that's a cop out...tell us, how many bombing happend in Irak prior to the invasion...?
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    how so?? your planes drop bombs, which kill innocent people. your soldiers(not all of them, but some) rape iraqi women and girls. and iraq is even more dangerous now than it was before.

    How many of the 43,000 civilian deaths claimed have been directly attributed to the actions of US soldiers?

    As for your claim that "some" of the US soldiers rape Iraqi women and girls, that's one incident.
  • chopitdown wrote:
    i won't argue that our invasion caused instability and has led to bloodshed. But it is not only us who are killing, raping, and destroying (which does not make it right or justifiable). That's pretty much what i wanted to convey... it's a copout when sectarian violence is justified or excused or blamed on an american invasion...esp when the sectarian violence isn't against americans, that at least i could understand. I have no idea about the stats but it would be interesting to see how many innocent Iraqi's are killed from road side bombs, suicide bombers, execution style killings vs armed conflict with US troops. My guess is that most are killed from the former and I believe in personal accountability. America isn't making those groups fight with each other, they are choosing to fight each other. I firmly believe that if Iraqi's wanted to they could end this violence and work together. They could rat out the people working against stabilization and could start a new country, but until they truly want to, it won't happen.

    see, again you're trying to distance yourself from what's happening over there. you're saying, "it's not us, it's them" like you're just over there to provide cookies and milk or something. the violence and the killings are a direct result of america invading the country and dropping -ing bombs on innocent people. does it really matter the exact number of people killed directly by an american?? no, because you're responsible for everything that happens in iraq. you're the ones who stirred the hornets nest. you should have went after al qaeda and bin laden instead. bomb them, bomb their bases, camps, etc. and that's pretty much all you can do. you don't invade another country and kill innocent people because of a terrorist attack. you saw what happened on 9/11. you didn't like it. so why would you do it to someone else??
    Another habit says it's in love with you
    Another habit says its long overdue
    Another habit like an unwanted friend
    I'm so happy with my righteous self
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    no, because you're responsible for everything that happens in iraq. you're the ones who stirred the hornets nest.

    I just don't get this mentality. Just like the Pope and the cartoonists "stirred the hornet's nest." Is anyone besides the US accountable for their own actions?
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    even flow? wrote:
    Downtown Bhagdad under Saddam or the slums of L.A.? Something about violence and you not having to be there.

    Does not parse.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jsand wrote:
    How many of the 43,000 civilian deaths claimed have been directly attributed to the actions of US soldiers?

    As for your claim that "some" of the US soldiers rape Iraqi women and girls, that's one incident.

    how many people in the twin towers were killed directly by the planes impact?? should al qaeda be blamed for those who died because the towers collapsed?? it's not their fault americans can't build towers that can't withstand the impact of a 757. so whoever was still alive after the planes hit, are not al qaedas fault.

    one incident?? don't tell me you honestly believe that.
    Another habit says it's in love with you
    Another habit says its long overdue
    Another habit like an unwanted friend
    I'm so happy with my righteous self
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    see, again you're trying to distance yourself from what's happening over there. you're saying, "it's not us, it's them" like you're just over there to provide cookies and milk or something. the violence and the killings are a direct result of america invading the country and dropping -ing bombs on innocent people. does it really matter the exact number of people killed directly by an american?? no, because you're responsible for everything that happens in iraq. you're the ones who stirred the hornets nest. you should have went after al qaeda and bin laden instead. bomb them, bomb their bases, camps, etc. and that's pretty much all you can do. you don't invade another country and kill innocent people because of a terrorist attack. you saw what happened on 9/11. you didn't like it. so why would you do it to someone else??

    no i said we have caused problems and yes some of the problems can be traced back to us, no question. But to let everyone else off the hook, in my mind is not the right approach. It does matter how many people are killed by americans vs terrorists. If americans killed 40,000 innnocent iraqi's it's damn right time we leave. I firmly agree we should have gone after AQ and OBL much more agressively. I do see your point, I just don't agree with all of it. to me it is impossible to blame everything on america when it comes to killing. the different sects don't have to kill each other or attack innocent people, yet they do.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    how about the mass graves that have been found. is American responsible for those too?


    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    how many people in the twin towers were killed directly by the planes impact?? should al qaeda be blamed for those who died because the towers collapsed?? it's not their fault americans can't build towers that can't withstand the impact of a 757. so whoever was still alive after the planes hit, are not al qaedas fault.

    one incident?? don't tell me you honestly believe that.

    This post is very revealing. I'm finished with this "debate."
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    jsand wrote:
    I just don't get this mentality. Just like the Pope and the cartoonists "stirred the hornet's nest." Is anyone besides the US accountable for their own actions?

    not really.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    jlew24asu wrote:
    how about the mass graves that have been found. is American responsible for those too?


    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm

    Of course it is. If America wasn't so terrible, Sadam would never have killed those people.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    how many people in the twin towers were killed directly by the planes impact?? should al qaeda be blamed for those who died because the towers collapsed?? it's not their fault americans can't build towers that can't withstand the impact of a 757. so whoever was still alive after the planes hit, are not al qaedas fault.

    one incident?? don't tell me you honestly believe that.

    you cant be serious.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    jlew24asu wrote:
    how about the mass graves that have been found. is American responsible for those too?


    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm

    Of course we are. And we're responsible for the coup on Thailand, too, I imagine. I'm sure there's good video on YouTube showing that the CIA is actually running the Thai military.

    This thread really highlights the absurdity of the "blame America" mentality prevalent on this board.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • chopitdown wrote:
    no i said we have caused problems and yes some of the problems can be traced back to us, no question. But to let everyone else off the hook, in my mind is not the right approach. It does matter how many people are killed by americans vs terrorists. If americans killed 40,000 innnocent iraqi's it's damn right time we leave. I firmly agree we should have gone after AQ and OBL much more agressively. I do see your point, I just don't agree with all of it. to me it is impossible to blame everything on america when it comes to killing. the different sects don't have to kill each other or attack innocent people, yet they do.

    but they're doing it because they're up against america. they're desperate and using any and all means to keep the situation bad, until the americans finally say "you know what, they're just going to continue doing this until we leave". considering the fact that you shouldn't have been there to begin with, i don't think it's a bad idea. better late than never.
    Another habit says it's in love with you
    Another habit says its long overdue
    Another habit like an unwanted friend
    I'm so happy with my righteous self
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    jeffbr wrote:
    This thread really highlights the absurdity of the "blame America" mentality prevalent on this board.

    It sure does.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    jsand wrote:
    Of course it is. If America wasn't so terrible, Sadam would never have killed those people.

    this brings up a very good point. I think people's beef with america is the timing of our actions. If we knew about the mass graves and didn't do anything, shame on us. Same with Darfur, we should have organized a long time ago and intervened and made peace (oxymoron, i know). America just can't win... if we do something; people get pissed if we don't do it at the exact right time. If we dont' do something people are always going to say we should have done something this time. The solution is either step up every time or become isolationist...then we're at least consistent.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • jsandjsand Posts: 646
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    but they're doing it because they're up against america. they're desperate and using any and all means to keep the situation bad, until the americans finally say "you know what, they're just going to continue doing this until we leave". considering the fact that you shouldn't have been there to begin with, i don't think it's a bad idea. better late than never.

    Had to respond to this one. They're doing it because they're up against America??!! You don't think it's a bad idea to indiscriminately murder innocent civilians at markets and Mosques? Wow. This is incredible.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    aBoxOfFear wrote:
    but they're doing it because they're up against america. they're desperate and using any and all means to keep the situation bad, until the americans finally say "you know what, they're just going to continue doing this until we leave". considering the fact that you shouldn't have been there to begin with, i don't think it's a bad idea. better late than never.


    again, are you serious?
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    chopitdown wrote:
    this brings up a very good point. I think people's beef with america is the timing of our actions. If we knew about the mass graves and didn't do anything, shame on us. Same with Darfur, we should have organized a long time ago and intervened and made peace (oxymoron, i know). America just can't win... if we do something; people get pissed if we don't do it at the exact right time. If we dont' do something people are always going to say we should have done something this time. The solution is either step up every time or become isolationist...then we're at least consistent.


    When you are supplying the chemicals, you sure can't be going in to save the people they are being used on.
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    jsand wrote:
    Had to respond to this one. They're doing it because they're up against America??!! You don't think it's a bad idea to indiscriminately murder innocent civilians at markets and Mosques? Wow. This is incredible.


    I know, I cant believe what I'm reading. i try to type a response and i'm speechless.
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