I guess it's just hard for some people to imagine that a person can use the word "retarded" without prejudice or hatred. It's so hard to imagine that it causes some people to immediately come down on anybody who uses that word as though that person were deliberately trying to ridicule and belittle.
I don't personally know anyone who ridicules the mentally retarded. In fact, the word retarded does nothing but invoke a sympathy that I've felt ever since I was in elementary school when I used to pause in front of the mentally retarded classroom on my way to and from the bathroom, wishing there was something I could do for their situation. It's the kind of sympathy that I felt when I used to tutor the "slow" kids in math and reading in my spare time.
But, that's not to say that I'm some kind of philanthropist volunteer worker or anything in that regard. But, to just outright jump to the conclusion that I am insulting mentally retarded people because I refer to them as mentally retarded is a level of closed-mindedness that even the most retarded of individuals could not possibly possess.
But you just used the N word. Without intending any disrespect to anyone. Within THAT CONTEXT, its acceptable, at the very least to you. You have simply proven sponger's original point. He used the word retarded, in reference to someone eles's problems being called that word. And Jean jumped down his throat.
That is NOT all that sponger was doing. Have you even read the whole thread?
I'm finishing in here. I've said my piece.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
That is NOT all that sponger was doing. Have you even read the whole thread?
I'm finishing in here. I've said my piece.
So, we're in agreement that my use of the word "retard" to clarify my question to sadscaryguy was justified and not offensive.
That being said, the only remaining problem is my use of the word "retarded" to describe individuals who literally fall into that category as far as US mental health doctrine is concerned.
Obviously, I was not literally trying to offend anybody. Yet, look at the reaction I got, most notably:
it really pisses me off! So quit using it and show some respect to sadscaryguy!
I don't know about you, but I don't see how this resembles civility in any regard. Basically, it's "Don't piss me off and show some respect."
I think it's hard for any rationale person to conclude that this person is genuinely looking for consideration for his feelings. And, of course, the barrage of near admonishments that followed from others don't exactly resemble the most cordial attempts to resolve an obvious misunderstanding.
I think there is such a thing as a person using the leverage of political-correctness to unnecessarily exert control over another human being. And that's a far cry from simply asking for some consideration. I personally know what it's like to be offended by another person's unintentional meanings, and for some reason I don't find myself using that as an excuse to begin verbally assaulting someone. Maybe that's just me.
So, we're in agreement that my use of the word "retard" to clarify my question to sadscaryguy was justified and not offensive.
What makes you think any of what I said above means I'm in agreement with you? Did you read it?
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
What makes you think any of what I said above means I'm in agreement with you? Did you read it?
Paperplates was explaining to you that your use of the word nigger is similar to my use of the word retard. Your response was, "That's not all sponger was saying."
But, it is part of what I was saying, and it was a part that you apparently disagreed with when you said, "Jeanwah was right."
So, now we're in agreement on that one point. Your second point was that I was illegitimately using the word "retarded" as though it was "some sort of scientific label." In the US, it is. So, I'm waiting for your acknoweldgment on that one.
Paperplates was explaining to you that your use of the word nigger is similar to my use of the word retard. Your response was, "That's not all sponger was saying."
But, it is part of what I was saying, and it was a part that you apparently disagreed with when you said, "Jeanwah was right."
So, now we're in agreement on that one point. Your second point was that I was illegitimately using the word "retarded" as though it was "some sort of scientific label." In the US, it is. So, I'm waiting for your acknoweldgment on that one.
To be fair on you, I have since learned that it IS a scientific label in the US. I find that sickening, but it isn't your fault, sponger, no.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
Can we also agree that most of the world has come up with better descriptors for certain disabilities than the commonly-accepted-in-the-USA 'retard'? Or can we at least agree that such a better word might be found if we looked for it?
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
Can we also agree that most of the world has come up with better descriptors for certain disabilities than the commonly-accepted-in-the-USA 'retard'? Or can we at least agree that such a better word might be found if we looked for it?
No such word exists. Retard means to slow.. disability means not able, so can i assume by your use of the word disabled that you are implying that these people are not able?
anyword, when used long enough to describe something percieved as negative, is ultimately going to be considered an insult.. some always have been, others evolved into it.
Maybe you can understand how a sweeping generalization like "In Britain I think maybe people are a bit more ahead." is something easily shown to be highly relative, not to mention condescending, considering one is putting another entire nation "behind" one's own. It's not the best persuasive technique in an argument, imho. And frankly, when people talk down to me (and I'm Canadian, by the way), I recognize that they are coming from an imbalanced rather than realistic and balanced position.
Oh I must apologise because I didn't fully explain myself which was stupid of me. When I said "people" I was actually referring (in my mind) to the people in the UK disability "sector" that I'd spoken with, such as youth workers, social workers, disability advocates, therapists etc. I was thinking of them as more "ahead" in comparison to the organisations that sponger linked to such as the AAMR. (I'm glad to see that they are changing their policy on the word too though which is promising). I should have explained that properly instead of flippantly. I did not mean to come off as condescending to you or anyone.
"We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan --- London, Brixton, 14 July 1993 London, Wembley, 1996 London, Wembley, 18 June 2007 London, O2, 18 August 2009 London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012 Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
Oh I must apologise because I didn't fully explain myself which was stupid of me. When I said "people" I was actually referring (in my mind) to the people in the disability "sector" that I'd spoken with, such as youth workers, social workers, disability advocates, therapists etc. I was thinking of them as more "ahead" in comparison to the organisations that sponger linked to such as the AAMR. (I'm glad to see that they are changing their policy on the word too though which is promising). I should have explained that properly instead of flippantly. I did not mean to come off as condescending to you or anyone.
Okay, I appreciate your clarification.
I don't personally think we can compare two different countries that have their own unique circumstances and history as nations. To me it's like comparing apples and oranges. Differences are just that--they are different. When we get into the value judgment of "better" or "worse" we're talking about what is based on our own personal values. If you resonate with your national values, how can you expect another country with it's own values to live to your standard? Or how can you fairly see them as falling short when your standard is not their standard? It's opinion-- although we are entitled, our opinions and judgments show who WE are, not who others are. There is a vast range in attitudes from worker to worker within any one country, as well. For example, my sister has a social work certificate in Canada and although the requirements of her job position would be quite ideal and PC, she's an openly biased woman, against mental illness, among other things. And yet, beside her, she might work with someone who is dedicated to acting upon the ideal by being fair and unbiased. All within the same country.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Can we also agree that most of the world has come up with better descriptors for certain disabilities than the commonly-accepted-in-the-USA 'retard'? Or can we at least agree that such a better word might be found if we looked for it?
It would be great if we could start using a term like "special needs" and have that term be universally understood to mean exactly what the term "mentally retarded" means.
But, I think even terms like "developmentally challenged" and "special needs" are still too open to interpretation to be practical. For purposes of, say, descriptiveness, how is it possible to sum up in one or two words a person who is basically unable to take care of himself regardless of the effort put in?
This need for a definitive term doesn't come from a desire to categorize and segregate. It comes from the need to give these people the extra courtesy that they require. It makes it known right away that this person really, really needs our help -that he doesn't just need some extra assistance, but a lot. The term "mentally retarded" does nothing except create the awareness of a special sort of people who have needs that are much greater than what we would typically imagine. And when most americans hear that word, they naturally feel compelled to provide solutions to those needs.
In any case, however you all were using the word or explaining the word, the word is not an appropriate label for someone with Aspergers. It was a label that someone used on him that was meant to be hurtful only.
Aspergers is distinguished from other forms of Autism in that the people are very intelligent (not SLOW) and they are high-functioning. They learn how to compensate for the difficulties they have reading social cues.
hey guys i was just wondering if anyone on my friends list is familar with the condition called aspergers? well i was born with it and i have it but unfortunately im not as smart as einstein or bill gates. Ive had it since my whole life but was diagnosed at 14 and im 22 now do any of you know anything about aspergers? or have relatives or friends that have it at times i have to say it sucks having it because i get called names like retard for it etc and get put down by others or get called freak
My mother always thought I had aspergers syndrome but
I had numorous assessments done and it was ruled out.
I've read books and articles about it and I even accepted it for a short period of time so I understand how you feel.
My brother used to call me a freak and tease me because
I've always been somewhat 'different' to a lot of people in my manner
and my overall additude but I just accept myself and I find it does help if anything.
What makes me angry is how judgemental people are.
Craig Nicholl from the Vines has aspergersand when it
was announced people were joking and making a crack at him about him and there seems to be a stigma attached to it now. ("Oh i went to the show last just to see Criag Nicholl flip!")
Well, that's just my opinion.
Keep you're head up. You're better then them. I'm supporting you.
xx mel
beauty of whatever kind, in its supreme development, invariably excites the sensitive soul to tears
Comments
I don't personally know anyone who ridicules the mentally retarded. In fact, the word retarded does nothing but invoke a sympathy that I've felt ever since I was in elementary school when I used to pause in front of the mentally retarded classroom on my way to and from the bathroom, wishing there was something I could do for their situation. It's the kind of sympathy that I felt when I used to tutor the "slow" kids in math and reading in my spare time.
But, that's not to say that I'm some kind of philanthropist volunteer worker or anything in that regard. But, to just outright jump to the conclusion that I am insulting mentally retarded people because I refer to them as mentally retarded is a level of closed-mindedness that even the most retarded of individuals could not possibly possess.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
That is NOT all that sponger was doing. Have you even read the whole thread?
I'm finishing in here. I've said my piece.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
So, we're in agreement that my use of the word "retard" to clarify my question to sadscaryguy was justified and not offensive.
That being said, the only remaining problem is my use of the word "retarded" to describe individuals who literally fall into that category as far as US mental health doctrine is concerned.
Obviously, I was not literally trying to offend anybody. Yet, look at the reaction I got, most notably:
I don't know about you, but I don't see how this resembles civility in any regard. Basically, it's "Don't piss me off and show some respect."
I think it's hard for any rationale person to conclude that this person is genuinely looking for consideration for his feelings. And, of course, the barrage of near admonishments that followed from others don't exactly resemble the most cordial attempts to resolve an obvious misunderstanding.
I think there is such a thing as a person using the leverage of political-correctness to unnecessarily exert control over another human being. And that's a far cry from simply asking for some consideration. I personally know what it's like to be offended by another person's unintentional meanings, and for some reason I don't find myself using that as an excuse to begin verbally assaulting someone. Maybe that's just me.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
What makes you think any of what I said above means I'm in agreement with you? Did you read it?
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
Paperplates was explaining to you that your use of the word nigger is similar to my use of the word retard. Your response was, "That's not all sponger was saying."
But, it is part of what I was saying, and it was a part that you apparently disagreed with when you said, "Jeanwah was right."
So, now we're in agreement on that one point. Your second point was that I was illegitimately using the word "retarded" as though it was "some sort of scientific label." In the US, it is. So, I'm waiting for your acknoweldgment on that one.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
To be fair on you, I have since learned that it IS a scientific label in the US. I find that sickening, but it isn't your fault, sponger, no.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
awwwe.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Can we also agree that most of the world has come up with better descriptors for certain disabilities than the commonly-accepted-in-the-USA 'retard'? Or can we at least agree that such a better word might be found if we looked for it?
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
No such word exists. Retard means to slow.. disability means not able, so can i assume by your use of the word disabled that you are implying that these people are not able?
anyword, when used long enough to describe something percieved as negative, is ultimately going to be considered an insult.. some always have been, others evolved into it.
negro- insult
nigger- insult
colored- insult/dated
black- unPC
african american- Currently accepted
fag- insult
fairy-insult
sissy-insult
gay-unPC
queer- was an insult, now marginally accepted for self description
homo- insult
homosexual- preferred
slow- insult
retard-unPC
disabled- accepted?
Oh I must apologise because I didn't fully explain myself which was stupid of me. When I said "people" I was actually referring (in my mind) to the people in the UK disability "sector" that I'd spoken with, such as youth workers, social workers, disability advocates, therapists etc. I was thinking of them as more "ahead" in comparison to the organisations that sponger linked to such as the AAMR. (I'm glad to see that they are changing their policy on the word too though which is promising). I should have explained that properly instead of flippantly. I did not mean to come off as condescending to you or anyone.
---
London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
London, Wembley, 1996
London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
London, O2, 18 August 2009
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
I don't personally think we can compare two different countries that have their own unique circumstances and history as nations. To me it's like comparing apples and oranges. Differences are just that--they are different. When we get into the value judgment of "better" or "worse" we're talking about what is based on our own personal values. If you resonate with your national values, how can you expect another country with it's own values to live to your standard? Or how can you fairly see them as falling short when your standard is not their standard? It's opinion-- although we are entitled, our opinions and judgments show who WE are, not who others are. There is a vast range in attitudes from worker to worker within any one country, as well. For example, my sister has a social work certificate in Canada and although the requirements of her job position would be quite ideal and PC, she's an openly biased woman, against mental illness, among other things. And yet, beside her, she might work with someone who is dedicated to acting upon the ideal by being fair and unbiased. All within the same country.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
It would be great if we could start using a term like "special needs" and have that term be universally understood to mean exactly what the term "mentally retarded" means.
But, I think even terms like "developmentally challenged" and "special needs" are still too open to interpretation to be practical. For purposes of, say, descriptiveness, how is it possible to sum up in one or two words a person who is basically unable to take care of himself regardless of the effort put in?
This need for a definitive term doesn't come from a desire to categorize and segregate. It comes from the need to give these people the extra courtesy that they require. It makes it known right away that this person really, really needs our help -that he doesn't just need some extra assistance, but a lot. The term "mentally retarded" does nothing except create the awareness of a special sort of people who have needs that are much greater than what we would typically imagine. And when most americans hear that word, they naturally feel compelled to provide solutions to those needs.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
I think you and I were trying to make the same point. I know thats not what sponger was doing. Not any more than the guy using the N word. Thanks.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Aspergers is distinguished from other forms of Autism in that the people are very intelligent (not SLOW) and they are high-functioning. They learn how to compensate for the difficulties they have reading social cues.
This thread seems to have seriously de-railed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bram_Cohen
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
My mother always thought I had aspergers syndrome but
I had numorous assessments done and it was ruled out.
I've read books and articles about it and I even accepted it for a short period of time so I understand how you feel.
My brother used to call me a freak and tease me because
I've always been somewhat 'different' to a lot of people in my manner
and my overall additude but I just accept myself and I find it does help if anything.
What makes me angry is how judgemental people are.
Craig Nicholl from the Vines has aspergersand when it
was announced people were joking and making a crack at him about him and there seems to be a stigma attached to it now. ("Oh i went to the show last just to see Criag Nicholl flip!")
Well, that's just my opinion.
Keep you're head up. You're better then them. I'm supporting you.
xx mel