Such Bullshit

W.C. Carter

"It's a deceitful, stealth campaign. Pullman is hoping his books will fly off the shelves at Christmastime."

I gotta say I really enjoyed this statement. Are they honestly claiming that they are trying to sell books based on ATHEISM for CHRISTMAS?

gue_barium

MahoganySouls wrote:

So here is what I don't get. If, according to the author's ideaology, there is no God, no spirituality, how can there be a mystical compass that directs the girl to "truth"? You either believe in other worldly forces/spirits/angels whatever you want to call them, or you don't. You can't say it/they don't exist and then create a tool in which to be lead by it/them.

The short of it: Because a compass is something you can hold in your hand.

The long of it: We are all guided from within ourselves. Imagination included.

gue_barium

gue_barium wrote:

The short of it: Because a compass is something you can hold in your hand.

The long of it: We are all guided from within ourselves. Imagination included.

Q: Did you even read the article?
A: No. I don't groove on those fairy stories.

pj10alive42

Bout time someone teaches these god damn kids the truth!

Phantom Pain

pj10alive42 wrote:

Bout time someone teaches these god damn kids the truth!

Yeah !

At least let them have an open mind towards it, unlike me being brainwashed my whole life in Catholic School

I was never taught or shown anything other than that

catefrances

MahoganySouls wrote:

If there is no God, then how can there be demons?

who said there was no God? i said false God.

OutOfBreath

baraka wrote:

Here's an interesting fact: It was J.R.R. Tolkien that inspired CS Lewis to convert from atheism to Christianity.

Another interesting fact: Tolkien felt that Lewis was much too preachy and direct with his christian message, and that such elements shouldn't interfere with the story and the universe it is set in. (Like Tolkien's own world, where the message is much deeper buried, but there if you look)

But about the article. The start reads as follows:

"A children’s fantasy film that stars Nicole Kidman and features a little girl on a quest to kill God has some Christian groups upset over what they believe is a ploy to promote atheism to kids."

Is that any worse than ploys to promote christianity to kids, as in Narnia?

And by the way, the girl is not "on a quest to kill god", that is a very bad representation of what the books are about. The books escalate from relating only Lyra's story in the first book, to develop into the big war between "The Authority" and "the rebels", with a lot of (quasi)scientific and deeply philosophical references thrown in.

I highly recommend the series for anyone into fantasy at all, and/or have any interest in philosophy. I rate this series on par with Lord Of The Rings. It is THAT good.

Peace
Dan

gue_barium

OutOfBreath wrote:

Another interesting fact: Tolkien felt that Lewis was much too preachy and direct with his christian message, and that such elements shouldn't interfere with the story and the universe it is set in. (Like Tolkien's own world, where the message is much deeper buried, but there if you look)

But about the article. The start reads as follows:

"A children’s fantasy film that stars Nicole Kidman and features a little girl on a quest to kill God has some Christian groups upset over what they believe is a ploy to promote atheism to kids."

Is that any worse than ploys to promote christianity to kids, as in Narnia?

And by the way, the girl is not "on a quest to kill god", that is a very bad representation of what the books are about. The books escalate from relating only Lyra's story in the first book, to develop into the big war between "The Authority" and "the rebels", with a lot of (quasi)scientific and deeply philosophical references thrown in.

I highly recommend the series for anyone into fantasy at all, and/or have any interest in philosophy. I rate this series on par with Lord Of The Rings. It is THAT good.

Peace
Dan

Good Christ.
These are children's stories you're talking about here.

jlew24asu

gue_barium wrote:

Q: Did you even read the article?
A: No. I don't groove on those fairy stories.

you are one strange fella.

mammasan

These groups have every right to speak their mind, I may not agree with them but that doesn't mean that they should be quieted. These are probably the same people who ban Harry Potter books from their town libraries and ban Halloween celebrations from their children's schools so I really don't take them to seriously.

polaris

all i know is that the distributors are LOVING it ... ... no such thing as bad press ...

i can't wait for the movie ... iorek looks cool ...

baraka

OutOfBreath wrote:

Another interesting fact: Tolkien felt that Lewis was much too preachy and direct with his christian message, and that such elements shouldn't interfere with the story and the universe it is set in. (Like Tolkien's own world, where the message is much deeper buried, but there if you look)

I must have been really thick as a kid (or just ignorant to Christianity & the bible) because to truly had no idea. I guess, like with Tolkien, I just saw good vs evil themes. I was obsessed with both writers as a kid. I of course was ignorant about both writers background with religion.

OutOfBreath wrote:

But about the article. The start reads as follows:

"A children’s fantasy film that stars Nicole Kidman and features a little girl on a quest to kill God has some Christian groups upset over what they believe is a ploy to promote atheism to kids."

Is that any worse than ploys to promote christianity to kids, as in Narnia?

No. You know, perhaps if children could have read these books with knowing the authors background and without the extreme groups giving it a bias slant, then perhaps these children would have been able to freely draw their own conclusions, like I did with Tolkien and Lewis. I must admit, if I had known there was a Christian agenda at the time, I might have not read them. I was pretty anti-religion as a kid and teen.

OutOfBreath wrote:

I highly recommend the series for anyone into fantasy at all, and/or have any interest in philosophy. I rate this series on par with Lord Of The Rings. It is THAT good.

I am so interested in these books. I'm hitting the book store later today!

soulsinging

MahoganySouls wrote:

So here is what I don't get. If, according to the author's ideaology, there is no God, no spirituality, how can there be a mystical compass that directs the girl to "truth"? You either believe in other worldly forces/spirits/angels whatever you want to call them, or you don't. You can't say it/they don't exist and then create a tool in which to be lead by it/them.

i don't think that is the author's ideology. first of all, the book is fiction. the golden compass isn't imagining some new religion with compasses. it's just a story. so the books can have all those things and still be atheistic. second, the book is far more about rejecting authority, and the church in particular. it is less a diatribe against any god or spirituality as it is against institutions that manipulate god as a means of controlling the masses. you should read the books. they are very fascinating, regardless of your spiritual views.

soulsinging

gue_barium wrote:

Good Christ.
These are children's stories you're talking about here.

and pearl jam is just a cock rock band. what's your point?

ps. the books are definitely not for children, nor are the stories. they are mythological. kid's stories are things like charlotte's web. these books are more closely related to the old homeric epic mythologies, only with more modern themes. there is nothing childish about them.

soulsinging

OutOfBreath wrote:

I highly recommend the series for anyone into fantasy at all, and/or have any interest in philosophy. I rate this series on par with Lord Of The Rings. It is THAT good.

yes, they are. i might even rate them a slight bit higher from a literary/story standpoint. as fascinating as tolkein's world was, he wasn't much of an exciting writer and the pace occasionally lagged. pullman's series is brilliant writing and the story is suspenseful and thrilling. it is probably the best series of its kind i've ever read.

Rats of Multa

MahoganySouls wrote:

So here is what I don't get. If, according to the author's ideaology, there is no God, no spirituality, how can there be a mystical compass that directs the girl to "truth"? You either believe in other worldly forces/spirits/angels whatever you want to call them, or you don't. You can't say it/they don't exist and then create a tool in which to be lead by it/them.

perhaps the theme is NOT that the universe lacks a spiritual substance, but that preordained doctrines [ala christian, muslim faith-based religions] innately detract from any individuals' higher attainment thereof, and so in the death of "God" true(r) spirituality may become more deeply realized.

i think this is a great thread to think that the death of god reveals further attainment of god!

also i think Que-Barium is on to something--all experiences are inherently derived from within.

cheers.

Pegasus

The books are fantastic (bit less so the 3rd one, actually the whole war part is the one that let the book down for me, and I'm a lapsed-catholic atheist!).

I agree with Dan, I put it at the level of Lord Of The Rings and so do a lot of people in the UK.. it was voted 3rd best ever book in a national poll 4 years back, behind LOTR and Pride and Prejudice (and the only book in the top 8 that had never made it to the screen at that point, so people who voted for it had actually READ it rather than saw a screen version)

And actually, the books are not atheistic imo, but rather agnostic.
Religion is attacked rather than spirituality (Daemons, Dust..)

As for the watering down, I saw the (very good) Stage adaptation at the National Theatre both years and they did tone down a little bit the church part for it (for the american tourists I guess), but it still worked fine (and I saw a talk with Pullman about it there too, the question was asked and he was ok with it).

oh and the cover to cover BBC Audiobook, with full cast and narrated by Pullman himself is also great (I don't normally like audiobooks. There's an MP3 CDs version..just can't find it anywhere right now)

Cosmo

mammasan wrote:

These groups have every right to speak their mind, I may not agree with them but that doesn't mean that they should be quieted. These are probably the same people who ban Harry Potter books from their town libraries and ban Halloween celebrations from their children's schools so I really don't take them to seriously.

...
This is it... exactly.
Why is it that they ALWAYs give these blow hards all the press?
Why? Because it stirs controversy. Controversy sells.
...
If you buy into all of their bullshit... you are basically a tool.

OutOfBreath

gue_barium wrote:

Good Christ.
These are children's stories you're talking about here.

Well yes. And the only children's stories worth reading are those that take kids seriously, and not as a fragile thing not to get any impressions about the serious aspects of life. Children are largely underrated as readers. LOTR is a marvelous children's book in my view, for instance.

Btw, I loved Narnia as well. And the agenda doesnt become blatantly clear until the last mock-apocalypse book. So although the last disappointed me a bit, the preceding 6 holds up remarkably well when I reread them 2 years ago.

Peace
Dan

Pegasus

OutOfBreath wrote:

Well yes. And the only children's stories worth reading are those that take kids seriously, and not as a fragile thing not to get any impressions about the serious aspects of life. Children are largely underrated as readers. LOTR is a marvelous children's book in my view, for instance.

Btw, I loved Narnia as well. And the agenda doesnt become blatantly clear until the last mock-apocalypse book. So although the last disappointed me a bit, the preceding 6 holds up remarkably well when I reread them 2 years ago.

Peace
Dan

LOTR is not a children book anymore than Beowulf, its inspiration is.
The Hobbit is.