Another interesting fact: Tolkien felt that Lewis was much too preachy and direct with his christian message, and that such elements shouldn't interfere with the story and the universe it is set in. (Like Tolkien's own world, where the message is much deeper buried, but there if you look)
I must have been really thick as a kid (or just ignorant to Christianity & the bible) because to truly had no idea. I guess, like with Tolkien, I just saw good vs evil themes. I was obsessed with both writers as a kid. I of course was ignorant about both writers background with religion.
But about the article. The start reads as follows:
"A children’s fantasy film that stars Nicole Kidman and features a little girl on a quest to kill God has some Christian groups upset over what they believe is a ploy to promote atheism to kids."
Is that any worse than ploys to promote christianity to kids, as in Narnia?
No. You know, perhaps if children could have read these books with knowing the authors background and without the extreme groups giving it a bias slant, then perhaps these children would have been able to freely draw their own conclusions, like I did with Tolkien and Lewis. I must admit, if I had known there was a Christian agenda at the time, I might have not read them. I was pretty anti-religion as a kid and teen.
I highly recommend the series for anyone into fantasy at all, and/or have any interest in philosophy. I rate this series on par with Lord Of The Rings. It is THAT good.
I am so interested in these books. I'm hitting the book store later today!
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
So here is what I don't get. If, according to the author's ideaology, there is no God, no spirituality, how can there be a mystical compass that directs the girl to "truth"? You either believe in other worldly forces/spirits/angels whatever you want to call them, or you don't. You can't say it/they don't exist and then create a tool in which to be lead by it/them.
i don't think that is the author's ideology. first of all, the book is fiction. the golden compass isn't imagining some new religion with compasses. it's just a story. so the books can have all those things and still be atheistic. second, the book is far more about rejecting authority, and the church in particular. it is less a diatribe against any god or spirituality as it is against institutions that manipulate god as a means of controlling the masses. you should read the books. they are very fascinating, regardless of your spiritual views.
Good Christ.
These are children's stories you're talking about here.
and pearl jam is just a cock rock band. what's your point?
ps. the books are definitely not for children, nor are the stories. they are mythological. kid's stories are things like charlotte's web. these books are more closely related to the old homeric epic mythologies, only with more modern themes. there is nothing childish about them.
I highly recommend the series for anyone into fantasy at all, and/or have any interest in philosophy. I rate this series on par with Lord Of The Rings. It is THAT good.
yes, they are. i might even rate them a slight bit higher from a literary/story standpoint. as fascinating as tolkein's world was, he wasn't much of an exciting writer and the pace occasionally lagged. pullman's series is brilliant writing and the story is suspenseful and thrilling. it is probably the best series of its kind i've ever read.
So here is what I don't get. If, according to the author's ideaology, there is no God, no spirituality, how can there be a mystical compass that directs the girl to "truth"? You either believe in other worldly forces/spirits/angels whatever you want to call them, or you don't. You can't say it/they don't exist and then create a tool in which to be lead by it/them.
perhaps the theme is NOT that the universe lacks a spiritual substance, but that preordained doctrines [ala christian, muslim faith-based religions] innately detract from any individuals' higher attainment thereof, and so in the death of "God" true(r) spirituality may become more deeply realized.
i think this is a great thread to think that the death of god reveals further attainment of god!
also i think Que-Barium is on to something--all experiences are inherently derived from within.
cheers.
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
The books are fantastic (bit less so the 3rd one, actually the whole war part is the one that let the book down for me, and I'm a lapsed-catholic atheist!).
I agree with Dan, I put it at the level of Lord Of The Rings and so do a lot of people in the UK.. it was voted 3rd best ever book in a national poll 4 years back, behind LOTR and Pride and Prejudice (and the only book in the top 8 that had never made it to the screen at that point, so people who voted for it had actually READ it rather than saw a screen version)
And actually, the books are not atheistic imo, but rather agnostic.
Religion is attacked rather than spirituality (Daemons, Dust..)
As for the watering down, I saw the (very good) Stage adaptation at the National Theatre both years and they did tone down a little bit the church part for it (for the american tourists I guess), but it still worked fine (and I saw a talk with Pullman about it there too, the question was asked and he was ok with it).
oh and the cover to cover BBC Audiobook, with full cast and narrated by Pullman himself is also great (I don't normally like audiobooks. There's an MP3 CDs version..just can't find it anywhere right now)
These groups have every right to speak their mind, I may not agree with them but that doesn't mean that they should be quieted. These are probably the same people who ban Harry Potter books from their town libraries and ban Halloween celebrations from their children's schools so I really don't take them to seriously.
...
This is it... exactly.
Why is it that they ALWAYs give these blow hards all the press?
Why? Because it stirs controversy. Controversy sells.
...
If you buy into all of their bullshit... you are basically a tool.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Good Christ.
These are children's stories you're talking about here.
Well yes. And the only children's stories worth reading are those that take kids seriously, and not as a fragile thing not to get any impressions about the serious aspects of life. Children are largely underrated as readers. LOTR is a marvelous children's book in my view, for instance.
Btw, I loved Narnia as well. And the agenda doesnt become blatantly clear until the last mock-apocalypse book. So although the last disappointed me a bit, the preceding 6 holds up remarkably well when I reread them 2 years ago.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Well yes. And the only children's stories worth reading are those that take kids seriously, and not as a fragile thing not to get any impressions about the serious aspects of life. Children are largely underrated as readers. LOTR is a marvelous children's book in my view, for instance.
Btw, I loved Narnia as well. And the agenda doesnt become blatantly clear until the last mock-apocalypse book. So although the last disappointed me a bit, the preceding 6 holds up remarkably well when I reread them 2 years ago.
Peace
Dan
LOTR is not a children book anymore than Beowulf, its inspiration is.
The Hobbit is.
Would depend on what you mean by children. I use the term loosely.
Those books may be lost on 6-year-olds, but when children get 10-12 years old, they are more than ready for reading more serious and complex stuff. I stand by my assertion that children tend to be underestimated and too sheltered by "children's literature".
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Would depend on what you mean by children. I use the term loosely.
Those books may be lost on 6-year-olds, but when children get 10-12 years old, they are more than ready for reading more serious and complex stuff. I stand by my assertion that children tend to be underestimated and too sheltered by "children's literature".
Peace
Dan
ah, i think it's just a miscue on terms then, becos i use the term children's stories pretty narrowly to mean stories with little value outside of entertaining or teaching children. little red riding hood is a children's story. so is shiloh. golden compass and lotr have very strong literary merit and are and should be of interest to adults.
agreed. LOTR is not a children's story. neither is the golden compass. neither were beowulf, the odyssey, the iliad, or the aeneid.
With the exception of The Golden Compass & Aeneid, I read all these books before I was 13 years old. I read the Iliad and Odyssey in 7th grade and read the LOTR series in 5th grade. I remember that specifically because I got in trouble at school for reading it during class. It depends on the kid, I think.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
my mom forwarded me this email she received. she works at a catholic high school so it must have made the rounds of the staff. my favorite part is where he says that a poor financial result for this movie will somehow be a tribute to god's glory:
Guys,
What do you think?
mom
Folks, I just went out to the site provided and checked it out myself. If none of you are familiar with Snopes, its a website dedicated to determining the truth about many urban legends, Internet rumors, email forwards, and other such stories of uncertain or questionable origin.
Unfortunately, Snopes says the below is true. I wish it wasn't...
This Christmas, please be knowledgeable and choose not to take your kids to see this movie.
Please send this information to as many people connected to children that you may know. My hope and prayer is God will allow this news to spread like wildfire and Christians around the world will not see this movie. I hope and pray it does not do well in the box office for God's glory.
The Golden Compass
I have heard of this movie although I did not know what it was about. Please check out the link. It is scary stuff.
You may already know about this, but I just learned about a kids movie coming out in December starring Nicole Kidman. It's called The Golden Compass, and while it will be a watered down version, it is based on a series of children's books about killing God (It is the anti-Narnia). Please follow this link, and then pass it on. From what I understand, the hope is to get alot of kids to see the movie - which won't seem too bad - and then get the parents to buy the books for their kids for Christmas. The quotes from the author sum it all up. I'm going to tell everyone about this movie.
who is scott hoffman and what is his email address? i'd like to write him and tell him personally that he's a fucking idiot. if his religion is so weak that a movie based on a fantasy book will shake the very foundations of his faith, i can only "hope and pray" that he does not do well in life "for God's glory."
With the exception of The Golden Compass & Aeneid, I read all these books before I was 13 years old. I read the Iliad and Odyssey in 7th grade and read the LOTR series in 5th grade. I remember that specifically because I got in trouble at school for reading it during class. It depends on the kid, I think.
*sigh* good for you, but my point was not that nobody under 18 can or should read these works. the point is, none of those works were written solely to entertain kids. they contain very adult themes, much of which will be lost on all but the most mature children. it was a response to gue's dismissive post calling them children's stories and implying that anything that has monsters or whatnot is childish and should not be read to have any meaning or value beyond entertaining little kids.
*sigh* good for you, but my point was not that nobody under 18 can or should read these works. the point is, none of those works were written solely to entertain kids. they contain very adult themes, much of which will be lost on all but the most mature children. it was a response to gue's dismissive post calling them children's stories and implying that anything that has monsters or whatnot is childish and should not be read to have any meaning or value beyond entertaining little kids.
Oh, I don't disagree with your point. But, and maybe I am wrong, aren't these books touted as children's books, specifically LOTR ,the Narnia series, & The Golden Compass? Do you think that is misleading?
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Oh, I don't disagree with your point. But, and maybe I am wrong, aren't these books touted as children's books, specifically LOTR ,the Narnia series, & The Golden Compass? Do you think that is misleading?
the narnia series is, definitely. i don't think LOTR is touted as a children's book. the hobbit maybe, but even the movies were marketed to teens. their only appeal to children is that kids don't have gue's hangups about how they're only fairytales. i feel the same about the golden compass... it's in the sci-fi section or the young adult section, NOT the kids sections.
the narnia series is, definitely. i don't think LOTR is touted as a children's book. the hobbit maybe, but even the movies were marketed to teens. their only appeal to children is that kids don't have gue's hangups about how they're only fairytales. i feel the same about the golden compass... it's in the sci-fi section or the young adult section, NOT the kids sections.
Sci-fi makes sense.............these books were bought for me by my mom, so what did I know (I still have my original copies!) Oh, another favorite of mine was A Wrinkle in Time! That one alone was probably the most inspirational to me. Was this one a 'children's book' or sci-fi? I guess I always looked at these books as 'deep' children's books, certainly not for all children, but not all children enjoy reading.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Sci-fi makes sense.............these books were bought for me by my mom, so what did I know (I still have my original copies!) Oh, another favorite of mine was A Wrinkle in Time! That one alone was probably the most inspirational to me. Was this one a 'children's book' or sci-fi? I guess I always looked at these books as 'deep' children's books, certainly not for all children, but not all children enjoy reading.
i think all of these fall in the young adult section at best. they are not simply kid fairy tales. they are meant to provoke thought through metaphor. wrinkle in time is awesome. though i found that one too preachy as well.
With the exception of The Golden Compass & Aeneid, I read all these books before I was 13 years old. I read the Iliad and Odyssey in 7th grade and read the LOTR series in 5th grade. I remember that specifically because I got in trouble at school for reading it during class. It depends on the kid, I think.
all those contain extremely adult themes.
the fact they contain mythological or fantastical elements doesn't mean it's for children.. only very recently have those been looked down on by adults.
by that measure, the Bible, or any religious book for that matter, are Children's books..
all those contain extremely adult themes.
the fact they contain mythological or fantastical elements doesn't mean it's for children.. only very recently have those been looked down on by adults.
by that measure, the Bible, or any religious book for that matter, are Children's books..
I don't disagree that they contain 'extremely adult themes', just that they are perhaps touted as children's books by literary critics, etc. And to me, if a child is interested in such literature, why not start early? If the child is not ready for such literature, they usually don't express interest. I guess I worry that it will be discouraged for children (all of these books in this genre) and these kind of books were very special to me as a child.
I'm interested in His Dark Materials trilogy, so I wiki'd it yesterday. I found this:
"Northern Lights won the Carnegie Medal for children's fiction in the UK in 1995[2], and in 2007 it was selected by judges of the Carnegie Medal as one of the ten most important children's novels of the past 70 years."
I don't disagree that they contain 'extremely adult themes', just that they are perhaps touted as children's books by literary critics, etc. And to me, if a child is interested in such literature, why not start early? If the child is not ready for such literature, they usually don't express interest. I guess I worry that it will be discouraged for children (all of these books in this genre) and these kind of books were very special to me as a child.
I'm interested in His Dark Materials trilogy, so I wiki'd it yesterday. I found this:
"Northern Lights won the Carnegie Medal for children's fiction in the UK in 1995[2], and in 2007 it was selected by judges of the Carnegie Medal as one of the ten most important children's novels of the past 70 years."
"Although the series is marketed to young adults, the audience includes many adult readers."
in all of my years as a lit major i never once heard anyone touting the aeneid, homer, or lotr to children.
i think there is (as in all of pop culture) a big grey area between children and adults that we consider "young adult." they call it children's book once, then young adult later. i consider children's to be solely for young elementary kids. once you're old enough to read a novel, i consider it all adult lit. maybe some is marketed to "younger" adults, but to me it's all the same.
Would depend on what you mean by children. I use the term loosely.
Those books may be lost on 6-year-olds, but when children get 10-12 years old, they are more than ready for reading more serious and complex stuff. I stand by my assertion that children tend to be underestimated and too sheltered by "children's literature".
Peace
Dan
Children today grow up too fast. Let them be kids. There is nothing wrong with allowing children to hold onto their innocence. We all know how rough it is in the real world. No reason to push them before they have to be aware. Fantasy and fairytales are a rite of passage. Leave the "serious and complex stuff" for adults.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
Children today grow up too fast. Let them be kids. There is nothing wrong with allowing children to hold onto their innocence. We all know how rough it is in the real world. No reason to push them before they have to be aware. Fantasy and fairytales are a rite of passage. Leave the "serious and complex stuff" for adults.
yeah, because Fairy Tales about parents abandoning their children in the woods, children being eaten, etc is innocent
There is a difference between a demon (which is an evil spirit) and a daemon (which is a representation of one's soul). I understand that they are spelled sort of the same and pronounced sort of the same, but they are two completely different concepts. Demons are tricksters, and daemons are helpful entities... at least conceptually speaking for the purposes of His Dark Materials Trilogy-- and in other literary and anthropological ways.
Comments
i can't wait for the movie ... iorek looks cool ...
I must have been really thick as a kid (or just ignorant to Christianity & the bible) because to truly had no idea. I guess, like with Tolkien, I just saw good vs evil themes. I was obsessed with both writers as a kid. I of course was ignorant about both writers background with religion.
No. You know, perhaps if children could have read these books with knowing the authors background and without the extreme groups giving it a bias slant, then perhaps these children would have been able to freely draw their own conclusions, like I did with Tolkien and Lewis. I must admit, if I had known there was a Christian agenda at the time, I might have not read them. I was pretty anti-religion as a kid and teen.
I am so interested in these books. I'm hitting the book store later today!
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
i don't think that is the author's ideology. first of all, the book is fiction. the golden compass isn't imagining some new religion with compasses. it's just a story. so the books can have all those things and still be atheistic. second, the book is far more about rejecting authority, and the church in particular. it is less a diatribe against any god or spirituality as it is against institutions that manipulate god as a means of controlling the masses. you should read the books. they are very fascinating, regardless of your spiritual views.
and pearl jam is just a cock rock band. what's your point?
ps. the books are definitely not for children, nor are the stories. they are mythological. kid's stories are things like charlotte's web. these books are more closely related to the old homeric epic mythologies, only with more modern themes. there is nothing childish about them.
yes, they are. i might even rate them a slight bit higher from a literary/story standpoint. as fascinating as tolkein's world was, he wasn't much of an exciting writer and the pace occasionally lagged. pullman's series is brilliant writing and the story is suspenseful and thrilling. it is probably the best series of its kind i've ever read.
perhaps the theme is NOT that the universe lacks a spiritual substance, but that preordained doctrines [ala christian, muslim faith-based religions] innately detract from any individuals' higher attainment thereof, and so in the death of "God" true(r) spirituality may become more deeply realized.
i think this is a great thread to think that the death of god reveals further attainment of god!
also i think Que-Barium is on to something--all experiences are inherently derived from within.
cheers.
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
I agree with Dan, I put it at the level of Lord Of The Rings and so do a lot of people in the UK.. it was voted 3rd best ever book in a national poll 4 years back, behind LOTR and Pride and Prejudice (and the only book in the top 8 that had never made it to the screen at that point, so people who voted for it had actually READ it rather than saw a screen version)
And actually, the books are not atheistic imo, but rather agnostic.
Religion is attacked rather than spirituality (Daemons, Dust..)
As for the watering down, I saw the (very good) Stage adaptation at the National Theatre both years and they did tone down a little bit the church part for it (for the american tourists I guess), but it still worked fine (and I saw a talk with Pullman about it there too, the question was asked and he was ok with it).
oh and the cover to cover BBC Audiobook, with full cast and narrated by Pullman himself is also great (I don't normally like audiobooks. There's an MP3 CDs version..just can't find it anywhere right now)
This is it... exactly.
Why is it that they ALWAYs give these blow hards all the press?
Why? Because it stirs controversy. Controversy sells.
...
If you buy into all of their bullshit... you are basically a tool.
Hail, Hail!!!
Btw, I loved Narnia as well. And the agenda doesnt become blatantly clear until the last mock-apocalypse book. So although the last disappointed me a bit, the preceding 6 holds up remarkably well when I reread them 2 years ago.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
The Hobbit is.
agreed. LOTR is not a children's story. neither is the golden compass. neither were beowulf, the odyssey, the iliad, or the aeneid.
harry potter was a children's story (at least at first, the later books were at best for teenagers). the hobbit was a children's story.
Those books may be lost on 6-year-olds, but when children get 10-12 years old, they are more than ready for reading more serious and complex stuff. I stand by my assertion that children tend to be underestimated and too sheltered by "children's literature".
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
ah, i think it's just a miscue on terms then, becos i use the term children's stories pretty narrowly to mean stories with little value outside of entertaining or teaching children. little red riding hood is a children's story. so is shiloh. golden compass and lotr have very strong literary merit and are and should be of interest to adults.
With the exception of The Golden Compass & Aeneid, I read all these books before I was 13 years old. I read the Iliad and Odyssey in 7th grade and read the LOTR series in 5th grade. I remember that specifically because I got in trouble at school for reading it during class. It depends on the kid, I think.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
and my response to my mom and brothers:
*sigh* good for you, but my point was not that nobody under 18 can or should read these works. the point is, none of those works were written solely to entertain kids. they contain very adult themes, much of which will be lost on all but the most mature children. it was a response to gue's dismissive post calling them children's stories and implying that anything that has monsters or whatnot is childish and should not be read to have any meaning or value beyond entertaining little kids.
Oh, I don't disagree with your point. But, and maybe I am wrong, aren't these books touted as children's books, specifically LOTR ,the Narnia series, & The Golden Compass? Do you think that is misleading?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
the narnia series is, definitely. i don't think LOTR is touted as a children's book. the hobbit maybe, but even the movies were marketed to teens. their only appeal to children is that kids don't have gue's hangups about how they're only fairytales. i feel the same about the golden compass... it's in the sci-fi section or the young adult section, NOT the kids sections.
Sci-fi makes sense.............these books were bought for me by my mom, so what did I know (I still have my original copies!) Oh, another favorite of mine was A Wrinkle in Time! That one alone was probably the most inspirational to me. Was this one a 'children's book' or sci-fi? I guess I always looked at these books as 'deep' children's books, certainly not for all children, but not all children enjoy reading.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
i think all of these fall in the young adult section at best. they are not simply kid fairy tales. they are meant to provoke thought through metaphor. wrinkle in time is awesome. though i found that one too preachy as well.
the fact they contain mythological or fantastical elements doesn't mean it's for children.. only very recently have those been looked down on by adults.
by that measure, the Bible, or any religious book for that matter, are Children's books..
I don't disagree that they contain 'extremely adult themes', just that they are perhaps touted as children's books by literary critics, etc. And to me, if a child is interested in such literature, why not start early? If the child is not ready for such literature, they usually don't express interest. I guess I worry that it will be discouraged for children (all of these books in this genre) and these kind of books were very special to me as a child.
I'm interested in His Dark Materials trilogy, so I wiki'd it yesterday. I found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Lights_%28novel%29
"Northern Lights won the Carnegie Medal for children's fiction in the UK in 1995[2], and in 2007 it was selected by judges of the Carnegie Medal as one of the ten most important children's novels of the past 70 years."
Then if you wiki the trilogy series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials
"Although the series is marketed to young adults, the audience includes many adult readers."
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
in all of my years as a lit major i never once heard anyone touting the aeneid, homer, or lotr to children.
i think there is (as in all of pop culture) a big grey area between children and adults that we consider "young adult." they call it children's book once, then young adult later. i consider children's to be solely for young elementary kids. once you're old enough to read a novel, i consider it all adult lit. maybe some is marketed to "younger" adults, but to me it's all the same.
just curious. how old is a child?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Children today grow up too fast. Let them be kids. There is nothing wrong with allowing children to hold onto their innocence. We all know how rough it is in the real world. No reason to push them before they have to be aware. Fantasy and fairytales are a rite of passage. Leave the "serious and complex stuff" for adults.
yes but in the end the children are triumphant.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
pre-puberty/adolescence. once they become more interested in pussy/penis than sports and barbie, they are no longer children
There is a difference between a demon (which is an evil spirit) and a daemon (which is a representation of one's soul). I understand that they are spelled sort of the same and pronounced sort of the same, but they are two completely different concepts. Demons are tricksters, and daemons are helpful entities... at least conceptually speaking for the purposes of His Dark Materials Trilogy-- and in other literary and anthropological ways.
Peace and Love
Deni