The science tells you the difference is 18.1 points. Social and racial policy finds reason to rationalize this difference down to just 3.4 points.
But the thing is it doesn't matter if the difference is 50 points, if we just treated people as individuals it wouldn't matter.
i find this to be very interesting about white society as a collective. Before, it was all about enslaving the inferior Black race. The whole thing. Then, it was about Jim Crowing the inferior Black race. The whole thing. It was about denying basic human rights to the inferior Black race. The whole thing. Now, that some members of our society have recognized those ills, acknowledged their continued impact, and sought to establish and maintain social programs designed to help level the playing field, we, all of a sudden, seem to want to treat everyone as INDIVIDUALS. hmmmmmmm.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
So at best you now have it down to a 12 point real difference. Taking this back to the original post, does it make Toronto a racist place if those with an actual low IQ are found to be doing 'crappy' work?
It's not a 12 point difference.
The 12 point difference is in all the population, it doesn't account for environmental factors.
If anyone is being discriminated against due to IQ then I'd call it discrimination. IQ does not directly translate into performance.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
i find this to be very interesting about white society as a collective. Before, it was all about enslaving the inferior Black race. The whole thing. Then, it was about Jim Crowing the inferior Black race. The whole thing. It was about denying basic human rights to the inferior Black race. The whole thing. Now, that some members of our society have recognized those ills, acknowledged their continued impact, and sought to establish and maintain social programs designed to help level the playing field, we, all of a sudden, seem to want to treat everyone as INDIVIDUALS. hmmmmmmm.
Yeah, well, you know, society has progressed. Maybe you like living and treating people as mythological stereotypes but I prefer dealing with reality. What does treating someone as an individual have to do with the provision of social prgrams? Sorry if I don't feel guilty like you do. I wonder what you have to feel guilty about and how you seem to know so much about treating black people poorly.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
The 12 point difference is in all the population, it doesn't account for environmental factors.
If anyone is being discriminated against due to IQ then I'd call it discrimination. IQ does not directly translate into performance.
Good luck startign up your very soon to be successful company where you hire for lack of intelligence. Let me know how it works out. Maybe cornifer could join you in the venture.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Good luck startign up your very soon to be successful company where you hire for lack of intelligence. Let me know how it works out. Maybe cornifer could join you in the venture.
I would be hiring based on demonstrable skills.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
How can you say it's not a 12 point difference? You provided the figures.
Mean African-American IQ - 93
Mean White IQ - 105
Those are the figures you provided. Now unless I have basic math wrong that's a 12 point difference. Or is the difference between 105 and 93 dependant on the color of the font? or person doing the math?
Wait I know, you now believe the science behinf even simple math is wrong.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
How can you say it's not a 12 point difference? You provided the figures.
Mean African-American IQ - 93
Mean White IQ - 105
Those are the figures you provided. Now unless I have basic math wrong that's a 12 point difference. Or is the difference between 105 and 93 dependant on the color of the font? or person doing the math?
Wait I know, you now believe the science behinf even simple math is wrong.
No, it doesn't account for cultural differences or environmental factors. So the test is inaccurate as far as individual aptitude is concerned.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
No, it doesn't account for cultural differences or environmental factors. So the test is inaccurate as far as individual aptitude is concerned.
I'm so happy that you discount factual scores because they don't give you the outcome you want. You're sounding like the church in the middle ages now, "No Capernicus, the earth does not revolve around the sun. We don't care what your figures tell you."
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
On average, African-American, Native American, Hispanic-American, and other children from lower-income backgrounds score lower on IQ tests than middle-class whites and Asian-Americans do. These differences are still apparent on culture-fair IQ tests, and although some minority students may be less motivated in testing situations, or may display the effects of stereotype threat, cultural test bias does not explain all the group differences in IQ. Nor is there any conclusive evidence for the genetic hypothesis (or the Level I-Level II distinction) which posits that group differences in IQ are hereditary. The best explanation for group differences in IQ is the environmental hypothesis: many poor people and minority group members score lower on IQ tests because they grow up in impoverished environments that are much less conducive to intellectual development than those of their middle-class age-mates.
Fifth Edition
Developmental Psychology
Childhood and Adolescence
David R. Schaffer 1999
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm so happy that you discount factual scores because they don't give you the outcome you want. You're sounding like the church in the middle ages now, "No Capernicus, the earth does not revolve around the sun. We don't care what your figures tell you."
Oh, but I haven't typed out all the test results proving differences caused by environment. I'm not going into that much depth. All you are talking about is one result from one test that shows the ethnic IQ difference across the general population. A very very general result.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yeah, well, you know, society has progressed. Maybe you like living and treating people as mythological stereotypes but I prefer dealing with reality. What does treating someone as an individual have to do with the provision of social prgrams? Sorry if I don't feel guilty like you do. I wonder what you have to feel guilty about and how you seem to know so much about treating black people poorly.
Honestly, i don't PERSOANLLY feel guilty. It isn't about guilt. i'm simply willing to acknowledge the fact that you and i inherited a fucked up society. Those that came before us fucked it up and then handed it over to you and i. i'm not cool with that. You think i like the fact that we are now left to try our best to repair a social environment that just may be beyond fixing? i don't like it at all, but the way i see it, i have two choices:
A: i can acknowledge it and do my part to work and support those who wish to right the ship.
B: i can sweep it under the metaphorical rug, pretend it didn't happen and feel just fine seeking to maintain the status quo while the whole fuckin ship sinks. Hell, at least i was fortunate enough to inherit a good spot in line for a lifeboat.
i'm an A kinda guy.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
I'm glad you are. But obviously not an A enough kinda guy to not type the type of thread response inferring I'm racist. That's not an A kinda guy in my books. But given some of my hot headed response I'm certainly not an A-type guy on here always either.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
"Culture fair" tests are bullshit. Smart is smart is smart. Lowering the standards for people so they can feel smart doesn't help them and that's not how you educate people.
I'm sure Ahnimus would like to educate young black kids in ebonics so they could do "better" on their IQ tests. Seriously...
When I take a test, my answers are either right or wrong. There is no grey area for "my cultural experience." That's the most ignorant fucking thing I've ever heard of.
If you REALLY want to create a class of inferior people, treat them like they can't do well on an IQ test unless you give them a special "cultural translation."
I think the people who want to make up excuses for minorities are the real racists. You just want to lower the standards so they feel good about themselves. Education and the real world don't consist of happy talk and feeling good about yourself all of the time.
It's clear that IQ averages can change over time. Blacks in America have a higher average than blacks in Africa. That was a change for the better. Lowering their standards is not the fucking answer.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
"Culture fair" tests are bullshit. Smart is smart is smart. Lowering the standards for people so they can feel smart doesn't help them and that's not how you educate people.
I'm sure Ahnimus would like to educate young black kids in ebonics so they could do "better" on their IQ tests. Seriously...
When I take a test, my answers are either right or wrong. There is no grey area for "my cultural experience." That's the most ignorant fucking thing I've ever heard of.
If you REALLY want to create a class of inferior people, treat them like they can't do well on an IQ test unless you give them a special "cultural translation."
I think the people who want to make up excuses for minorities are the real racists. You just want to lower the standards so they feel good about themselves. Education and the real world don't consist of happy talk and feeling good about yourself all of the time.
It's clear that IQ averages can change over time. Blacks in America have a higher average than blacks in Africa. That was a change for the better. Lowering their standards is not the fucking answer.
If an IQ test was written in Ebonics, would you easily understand the questions?
What if it was written in cockneye slang?
The point of cultural-fair IQ tests isn't to dumb down the test, it's to make the material fair across cultures.
Besides that, middle-class people still outperform lower-class people.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Besides that, middle-class people still outperform lower-class people.
This could prove a genetic make up to intelligence. You're poor because you're stupid. You will have stupid kids. But don't worry some rich folks will tell you your kids are stupid becuase you're poor and not because their mommy and daddy are stupid.
Not that I believe this but from what you wrote it could easily be inferred.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
This could prove a genetic make up to intelligence. You're poor because you're stupid. You will have stupid kids. But don't worry some rich folks will tell you your kids are stupid becuase you're poor and not because their mommy and daddy are stupid.
Not that I believe this but from what you wrote it could easily be inferred.
If stupid kids are stupid because their parents are stupid; why are the parents stupid?
Because their parents were stupid.
The term impoverished refers to intellectual poverty, not financial poverty, however the two tend to go hand-in-hand. Look at the Jewish, they are typically very wealthy and very intelligent. Blacks, typically very poor and very unintelligent.
Does the wealth give rise to intelligence, or is it the other way around?
I'd say it's a catch-22. A wealthy person is probably intelligent, but also more capable of raising intelligent children due to their wealth.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
When will we stop using racist terms like black and white to define people? I can't believe that, in this day and age we can't judge the individual only, but still persist in placing them in groups - especially since those groups really mean nothing. We're all mixed at this point. Let's get over it and get on with our lives.
Thats as rediculous as not calling a person male or female. Differences exist. It is how we identify each other. Quite frankly, I like my distinct features. It is part of who I am, and I am proud of it. Maybe those who cry racism should try accepting and embracing their features, then reference to them wouldnt' be so offensive.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Again, i say, tell that to the Black guy in New York City trying to catch a cab.
He has a hard time catching a cab because statisticaly he is a threat. If his "people" in general would stop the crime/thug behavior, the stigma would be erraticated. The blame isn't with the cabbie who is afraid, it is with the fellow blacks who create the fear.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
awesome! i like your mom... but i bet she didn't work for a black, or hispanic
Why should that even matter? So because a white family can afford a housekeeper they are evil and perpetuating racism? What if they had hired the white woman to keep their home clean? Would the issue be the same?
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
I totally respect that you believe the story...I meant no harm.....I have always focused on the positive aspects and teachings, as opposed to the"blame" aspects.
Joe, so you will accept the historical accounts of slavery and concentration camps but will not accept the historical documentation regarding Jesus the Nazarene? Because, there are other things available besides the Bible that recorded his birth and death.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Okay, here's a topic for discussion -- what is race? It's clear that you think that blacks are a race, and Latinos are a race, and Jewish people are a race. What about the Irish? Are they a separate race?
I would think that any specific culture is classified as a race. But good question.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
I was referring to aboriginals who consistently score lowest on IQ tests.
You need to stop while you're ahead.
You cannot compare how an uneducated, simple living, uncultured (by modern standards) human measures up to a main stream human. These tests are designed to measure those of like circumstances. Just because someone is from a throwback environment doesn't make them unintelligent. It merely makes them ignorant to modern society. That has nothing to do with intelligence. How many of you could survive out in the wild on your own? By Aboriginal standards, you would be a complete and utter moron....and die.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
It's pretty clear that asians tend to excel at math, however, the cause of the variation is actually their language and not their brains.
In cantonese the words for numbers are quite small for example. And many languages count in tens, "Ten and 3" for example, instead of "Thirteen" which makes math easier.
So, again, it's clear that cultural differences affect cognitive performance and so does stereotyping and many other aspects of environment. If genetics is involved in variations in cognitive performance, the affect is probably minimal.
It is also due to the cultural differences that expect more. They do not accept laziness, disrespect or self serving attitudes. Children are educated from birth on. Which is why they score so much higher on proficiency type tests compared to the western world. Our kids start academics on a much later and lesser scale. If the environments were the same, the statistics would change.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
You cannot compare how an uneducated, simple living, uncultured (by modern standards) human measures up to a main stream human. These tests are designed to measure those of like circumstances. Just because someone is from a throwback environment doesn't make them unintelligent. It merely makes them ignorant to modern society. That has nothing to do with intelligence. How many of you could survive out in the wild on your own? By Aboriginal standards, you would be a complete and utter moron....and die.
So you're supporting a relative form of intelligence? A cannot add 2+2, B can add 2+2. Both are intelligent if they come from different circumstances? That is impossible unless you wish to completely dissolve the term intelligence.
It seems to me that line of thinking excuses lackluster development in a society. I contend that if you come upon a society that does not have a written language or basic math, that society doesn't have intelligent people in it based on ANY standard.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Joe, so you will accept the historical accounts of slavery and concentration camps but will not accept the historical documentation regarding Jesus the Nazarene? Because, there are other things available besides the Bible that recorded his birth and death.
slavery and the holocaust were on-going events that happened in the not too distant past.
I put less credibility in the historic recording (non-bible) of events from over 2000 years ago.
Unfortunately though, if you don't hire a specific quota of minorities, you will be fiercely fined.
Bullshit... hiring quotas were rarely implemented (if ever) and they have been removed by courts years ago.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Comments
i find this to be very interesting about white society as a collective. Before, it was all about enslaving the inferior Black race. The whole thing. Then, it was about Jim Crowing the inferior Black race. The whole thing. It was about denying basic human rights to the inferior Black race. The whole thing. Now, that some members of our society have recognized those ills, acknowledged their continued impact, and sought to establish and maintain social programs designed to help level the playing field, we, all of a sudden, seem to want to treat everyone as INDIVIDUALS. hmmmmmmm.
It's not a 12 point difference.
The 12 point difference is in all the population, it doesn't account for environmental factors.
If anyone is being discriminated against due to IQ then I'd call it discrimination. IQ does not directly translate into performance.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I would be hiring based on demonstrable skills.
Mean African-American IQ - 93
Mean White IQ - 105
Those are the figures you provided. Now unless I have basic math wrong that's a 12 point difference. Or is the difference between 105 and 93 dependant on the color of the font? or person doing the math?
Wait I know, you now believe the science behinf even simple math is wrong.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
No, it doesn't account for cultural differences or environmental factors. So the test is inaccurate as far as individual aptitude is concerned.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Fifth Edition
Developmental Psychology
Childhood and Adolescence
David R. Schaffer 1999
Oh, but I haven't typed out all the test results proving differences caused by environment. I'm not going into that much depth. All you are talking about is one result from one test that shows the ethnic IQ difference across the general population. A very very general result.
Honestly, i don't PERSOANLLY feel guilty. It isn't about guilt. i'm simply willing to acknowledge the fact that you and i inherited a fucked up society. Those that came before us fucked it up and then handed it over to you and i. i'm not cool with that. You think i like the fact that we are now left to try our best to repair a social environment that just may be beyond fixing? i don't like it at all, but the way i see it, i have two choices:
A: i can acknowledge it and do my part to work and support those who wish to right the ship.
B: i can sweep it under the metaphorical rug, pretend it didn't happen and feel just fine seeking to maintain the status quo while the whole fuckin ship sinks. Hell, at least i was fortunate enough to inherit a good spot in line for a lifeboat.
i'm an A kinda guy.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I'm sure Ahnimus would like to educate young black kids in ebonics so they could do "better" on their IQ tests. Seriously...
When I take a test, my answers are either right or wrong. There is no grey area for "my cultural experience." That's the most ignorant fucking thing I've ever heard of.
If you REALLY want to create a class of inferior people, treat them like they can't do well on an IQ test unless you give them a special "cultural translation."
I think the people who want to make up excuses for minorities are the real racists. You just want to lower the standards so they feel good about themselves. Education and the real world don't consist of happy talk and feeling good about yourself all of the time.
It's clear that IQ averages can change over time. Blacks in America have a higher average than blacks in Africa. That was a change for the better. Lowering their standards is not the fucking answer.
-Enoch Powell
If an IQ test was written in Ebonics, would you easily understand the questions?
What if it was written in cockneye slang?
The point of cultural-fair IQ tests isn't to dumb down the test, it's to make the material fair across cultures.
Besides that, middle-class people still outperform lower-class people.
Not that I believe this but from what you wrote it could easily be inferred.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
If stupid kids are stupid because their parents are stupid; why are the parents stupid?
Because their parents were stupid.
The term impoverished refers to intellectual poverty, not financial poverty, however the two tend to go hand-in-hand. Look at the Jewish, they are typically very wealthy and very intelligent. Blacks, typically very poor and very unintelligent.
Does the wealth give rise to intelligence, or is it the other way around?
I'd say it's a catch-22. A wealthy person is probably intelligent, but also more capable of raising intelligent children due to their wealth.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
You cannot compare how an uneducated, simple living, uncultured (by modern standards) human measures up to a main stream human. These tests are designed to measure those of like circumstances. Just because someone is from a throwback environment doesn't make them unintelligent. It merely makes them ignorant to modern society. That has nothing to do with intelligence. How many of you could survive out in the wild on your own? By Aboriginal standards, you would be a complete and utter moron....and die.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
So you're supporting a relative form of intelligence? A cannot add 2+2, B can add 2+2. Both are intelligent if they come from different circumstances? That is impossible unless you wish to completely dissolve the term intelligence.
It seems to me that line of thinking excuses lackluster development in a society. I contend that if you come upon a society that does not have a written language or basic math, that society doesn't have intelligent people in it based on ANY standard.
-Enoch Powell
slavery and the holocaust were on-going events that happened in the not too distant past.
I put less credibility in the historic recording (non-bible) of events from over 2000 years ago.
Bullshit... hiring quotas were rarely implemented (if ever) and they have been removed by courts years ago.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln