Zeitgeist Addendum

melodious

Featured at You Tube in 13 sections, if already been posted, consider this a bump...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT-2fenmLnc

Drowned Out

melodious wrote:

Featured at You Tube in 13 sections, if already been posted, consider this a bump...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT-2fenmLnc

It was posted last night, but not in it's own thread....
Did you, or anyone else watch it yet?

melodious

I am watching...

Nevermind

I have it on. I hope its better than the first.

Drowned Out

There are still some statements (mostly anti-religion) that will alienate large portions of the audience, but at least he toned down the multi-faith comparisons, and focused more on the control of faith itself...but the film is largely about the evils of the monetary system.

Could've done without the alternately ominous, then zen musical score...

For part of it, I was worried that both movies were a lead up to some scientolog-ish-cult sales pitch (venus project)...although I was left wondering about details, the principle is pretty sound imo....still, I'm sure people will slam it as utopian and impossible.

There are things that made me kinda weirded out about it tho; they don't have to do with the film itself...the timing of the release, and the plea for people to register at their movement's website...Is this the govt blacklist? Signing up for the first stop on the black helicopter express? :cool:

Has anyone followed the venus project's work? Surprised I've never heard of it, the website has a ton of information...

melodious

the timing of the release, and the plea for people to register at their movement's website...Is this the govt blacklist? Signing up for the first stop on the black helicopter express?

great point...that thought came across my mind as well...coinciding with the bail out.

I found it to be organized well...it was nothing I hadn't already thought about myself. I appreciated earlier clips in discussing how money is flowed and how the system is set for a no end to debt scenario..

the best insurance policy anyone can have is to keep one's self in balance with universal flow and build positive feedback...

keep your expenses minimized
and hold onto your faith
visualize prosperity for everyone
be grateful for your blessings
and turn your challenges into
opportunity.

peace.

DriftingByTheStorm

Nevermind wrote:

I have it on. I hope its better than the first.

The first half is phenomenal.

THe second half gets lost in a paradoxical utopian never-never land,
promoting the half baked concept of a "resource based economy" where cash doesn't exist, and most people don't work, and instead machines set us free to follow our bliss.

Needless to say, i have some concerns with the premise ... like how am i going to get my orange juice, and pearl jam tickets?

Also, the guy paradoxically rambles about politicians being irrelevant, because technology is our real king, and all we need to do is unfetter production from the evils of money and all will be well.

But then you go to the website, and they talk about setting up a global government ... of course, "not the kind of global government that the greed elite want" ... right, of course. A more benevolent people loving global government.

:sigh:

Look, humanity has been down this road already.
Trotsky's ideas were brilliant in THEORY as well.
In practice it just doesn't play out that way, though.

But like i said, the first half of the movie, featuring "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" authory, John Perkins, is excellent.
All the stuff about new energy technologies is great. In fact, the United States is (amazingly) leading the charge with deep-hydrothermal energy production, and that technology truly does have a incredible promise for the future. The US government recently gave a 60 million dollar research grant allocation out for it (should have been 60 billion if we're giving it away anyhow, imho).

I just think their may be some more practical steps that could be taken to get towards some of the aims of technological progress and betterment of human condition indicated therein. Small example, if the people are so concerned about their energy production, why don't they just organize through the government to buy out some of the major energy companies and take over the board. A company like exxon has a total market cap around 700billion ... thats do-able ... we could buy that. Lets buy energy companies and apply the profits towards social security, instead of executive compensation.

Anyone else with a take on the "No Cash" angle?

FiveB247x

I watched Zeitgeist. I don't have any vested interest in the religious aspect... but the part about the financial issues and the federal reserve is selective and not thorough. I watched it and then did my own research and inquiries afterwards and lots of it is merely pieced together on loosely connected facts and connections in history. Ie.. it is edited together to make a good story or theory but in reality is not fact, more of a twisted retrospective on economics, history and power through the century. It's done in a very simplistic manner so it makes it easy to enjoy, watch and capture mentally, yet in reality, it leads you down a path of false assumptions based on half-truthes compared to taking it for fact.

melodious

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

.

But like i said, the first half of the movie, featuring "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" authory, John Perkins, is excellent.
All the stuff about new energy technologies is great. In fact, the United States is (amazingly) leading the charge with deep-hydrothermal energy production, and that technology truly does have a incredible promise for the future. The US government recently gave a 60 million dollar research grant allocation out for it (should have been 60 billion if we're giving it away anyhow, imho).

I just think their may be some more practical steps that could be taken to get towards some of the aims of technological progress and betterment of human condition indicated therein. Small example, if the people are so concerned about their energy production, why don't they just organize through the government to buy out some of the major energy companies and take over the board. A company like exxon has a total market cap around 700billion ... thats do-able ... we could buy that. Lets buy energy companies and apply the profits towards social security, instead of executive compensation.

Anyone else with a take on the "No Cash" angle?

I agree, I could see remorse in Perkin's eyes as he revealed his insights...I have respect for someone who can give truth, even when it's theirs and may not be so pretty..

And the part where it stated that we are no longer countries inhabiting the world because corporations now hold that title, was a highlight in which i had yet to connect dots...

RolandTD20Kdrummer

google vid version:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912&hl=en

melodious

Thank you...Makes for a better viewing...

RolandTD20Kdrummer

melodious wrote:

Thank you...Makes for a better viewing...

most welcome. It's a must watch....especially the first half. Very big eye opener for a lot of people.

Drowned Out

damn, no iso torrent yet...?
here's the crap-quality stream version in torrent if anyone would prefer to watch from the couch...
http://www.mininova.org/tor/1876372

The best thing about these movies is that they are produced well enough to interest people with zero knowledge of this kind of stuff...informative without the AJ friction burns. I made copies of the first one for co-workers, family, friends...not one of them came back calling me crazy Most were pretty shocked, and wanted to talk about it, ask questions and opinions...my mom took it to book club, ffs

What I took from it is the something most rational people know:
We are squandering our resources, and corruption has robbed most of the world of a fair standard of living. Something has to, and probably will give...
But a resource-based system, on a large scale? I can't see how the transition would work...nor does it mention how a resource-based system would avoid corruption. Maybe there is more detail on the website...
But...
You look at the money pissed away in the last 10 years alone.... A trillion in total drug war cost in Bush's first four years in office...what, a trillion so far in bailouts? How much on Iraq? That's projected in the thousand-billions too, isn't it? ....you have to wonder what the world would be like with that kind of funding going to responsible medical, energy, agricultural R&D....when you think of it in that light, the idea that technology COULD be developed quickly to solve our energy, water and food issues is not that utopian.

DriftingByTheStorm

melodious wrote:

I agree, I could see remorse in Perkin's eyes as he revealed his insights...I have respect for someone who can give truth, even when it's theirs and may not be so pretty...

You should read the book, Confessions of an Economic Hitman.
It's phenomenal. And a thriller read.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

FiveB247x wrote:

I watched Zeitgeist. I don't have any vested interest in the religious aspect... but the part about the financial issues and the federal reserve is selective and not thorough. I watched it and then did my own research and inquiries afterwards and lots of it is merely pieced together on loosely connected facts and connections in history. Ie.. it is edited together to make a good story or theory but in reality is not fact, more of a twisted retrospective on economics, history and power through the century. It's done in a very simplistic manner so it makes it easy to enjoy, watch and capture mentally, yet in reality, it leads you down a path of false assumptions based on half-truthes compared to taking it for fact.

ZG Addendum is entirely different than the original ZG, it would probably clarify a lot from the original couple versions.

angelica

The stuff on 'intellectual materialism' is right on.

angelica

Totally accurate:

This...brings us to our second failure of awareness: the false assumption of separation through the rejection of the symbiotic relationship of life.

Apart from the understanding that all natural systems are emergent, where all notions of reality will be constantly developed, altered and even eradicated, we must also understand that all systems are in fact invented fragments, merely for the sake of conversation. For there is no such thing as independence in nature. The whole of nature is a unified system of interdependent variables, each a cause and a reaction existing only as a concentrated whole.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

You should read the book, Confessions of an Economic Hitman.
It's phenomenal. And a thriller read.

Amy Goodman interviews the Economic Hitman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WstddMJZQ

angelica

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

The first half is phenomenal.

THe second half gets lost in a paradoxical utopian never-never land,
promoting the half baked concept of a "resource based economy" where cash doesn't exist, and most people don't work, and instead machines set us free to follow our bliss.

Needless to say, i have some concerns with the premise ... like how am i going to get my orange juice, and pearl jam tickets?

Also, the guy paradoxically rambles about politicians being irrelevant, because technology is our real king, and all we need to do is unfetter production from the evils of money and all will be well.

But then you go to the website, and they talk about setting up a global government ... of course, "not the kind of global government that the greed elite want" ... right, of course. A more benevolent people loving global government.

:sigh:

Look, humanity has been down this road already.
Trotsky's ideas were brilliant in THEORY as well.
In practice it just doesn't play out that way, though.

But like i said, the first half of the movie, featuring "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" authory, John Perkins, is excellent.
All the stuff about new energy technologies is great. In fact, the United States is (amazingly) leading the charge with deep-hydrothermal energy production, and that technology truly does have a incredible promise for the future. The US government recently gave a 60 million dollar research grant allocation out for it (should have been 60 billion if we're giving it away anyhow, imho).

I just think their may be some more practical steps that could be taken to get towards some of the aims of technological progress and betterment of human condition indicated therein. Small example, if the people are so concerned about their energy production, why don't they just organize through the government to buy out some of the major energy companies and take over the board. A company like exxon has a total market cap around 700billion ... thats do-able ... we could buy that. Lets buy energy companies and apply the profits towards social security, instead of executive compensation.

Anyone else with a take on the "No Cash" angle?

I basically agree with you about this "new and improved" world government.

The base issue is that until humans evolve to the holistic awareness this film talks about, no matter what system we use - including this Venus Project - it will reflect the current general fragmented mindsets of the humans perpetuating them, including power-imbalances and inauthentic power hierarchies.

The key to recognizing this is by noting any duality-based view...such as the one this film presents: good guys/good system vs bad...which is a perpetuation of the age-old problem/flaw we disdain in organized religion, etc.

The Holism/unity this film accurately extolls the virtues of is beyond good/bad dichotomy.

Ultimately, though, the brilliance in this movie, like the last one, is using the vehicle of good/bad to bring valid holistic concepts to people who are not yet perceiving holistically and beyond good/bad dichotomies. I celebrate that this movie has presented a vision contrary to the expected mayhem on the horizon.

And as Krishnamurti talks of at the end of the film, like Jesus did as well..we don't need the structures/teachers, etc. outside of us. We are both the teacher/pupil or the goverment/the governed in any holistic and awakened view.

We don't need the Venus project. And yet, we do need to recognize the validity of dropping out of our current systems, and to individually finding our own truths and to create our own vision and to live it. By doing so, we align with that which seeks emergence through us at all times: our Glorious Potential.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

imo was left out of ZG Addendum, but should have made it in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNF3NSHDzYM&feature=related

very wise words, from a seasoned veteran that understands more than anyone possibly could.

DriftingByTheStorm

angelica wrote:

I basically agree with you about this "new and improved" world government.

The base issue is that until humans evolve to the holistic awareness this film talks about, no matter what system we use - including this Venus Project - it will reflect the current general fragmented mindsets of the humans perpetuating them, including power-imbalances and inauthentic power hierarchies.

The key to recognizing this is by noting any duality-based view...such as the one this film presents: good guys/good system vs bad...which is a perpetuation of the age-old problem/flaw we disdain in organized religion, etc.

The Holism/unity this film accurately extolls the virtues of is beyond good/bad dichotomy.

Ultimately, though, the brilliance in this movie, like the last one, is using the vehicle of good/bad to bring valid holistic concepts to people who are not yet perceiving holistically and beyond good/bad dichotomies. I celebrate that this movie has presented a vision contrary to the expected mayhem on the horizon.

And as Krishnamurti talks of at the end of the film, like Jesus did as well..we don't need the structures/teachers, etc. outside of us. We are both the teacher/pupil or the goverment/the governed in any holistic and awakened view.

We don't need the Venus project. And yet, we do need to recognize the validity of dropping out of our current systems, and to individually finding our own truths and to create our own vision and to live it. By doing so, we align with that which seeks emergence through us at all times: our Glorious Potential.

I just wish they didn't jump off the looney train with the "no cash world" view.

Without SOME method of ACCOUNTING and EXCHANGE, there is NO way to "fairly" handle DEMAND.

Some of the "economic" (and i use the term very loosely) theories presented here are so far out of step with reality as we know it that it is impossible to see how ANYONE could think they would function.

For instance, they talk about there being "abundance" and "enough resources for all", but how can anyone be so naive as to think there is enough of EVERYTHING for EVERYONE.

It is an outright fallacy.
Simple case in point, Pearl Jam plays a show.
how many seats at each show?
How many people want to go -- ESPECIALLY if there is NO fee ???

So HOW do you distribute the tickets?

What about orange juice?
I love it. But if there was NO COST for it, who WOULDN'T want orange juice?
Are there enough oranges to serve orange juice to everyone, everyday? Who makes this decision? How is the juice distributed? ???

Everytime you remove a market mechanism ... like MONEY ... you have to REPLACE IT with some other LESS DEMOCRATIC structure. That is one of the major realized flaws of the central planning model used by old school socialist countries. If you aren't going to let the market determine value and supply allocation (who gets what) then you have to rely on an essentialy FASCIST INSTITUTION to make those decisions.

How is that ANY better than using cash?

If people want to make changes like the ones this movie presents, i still strongly suggest working WITHIN the systems we currently have. YOU CAN HAVE RADICAL CHANGE WITHOUT DESTROYING THE CURRENT SYSTEM.

And that would be my premise.
If you want to take power (no pun) away from the energy companies, you can do that legally in MANY ways ... the most radical of which would be to simply REVOKE THEIR CORPORATE CHARTER or do a STATE SEIZURE of assets ... those are both entirely radical concepts, but they don't violate the fundamental nature of the existing system ...

impose very strict mandates on them, modify their charter, tax the shit out of them, get a court to invalidate their patent rights based on some radical socialist principle and redistribute them ... i can think of dozens of answers to the problem of energy company mahem that don't involve some pie-in-the-sky NEVER going to happen, NEVER going to even be FEASABLE idea like "NO MONEY".

If you want to deal with some of the major harms that our system of money has created, then implement stricter "environmental accounting" regulations, and force corporations to figure those costs in to their books.

If you want to deal with the systemic troubles of our monetary system, simply revoke central banking charters, and restore the constitutional order of our republic. Reducing the flow of cheap credit to banks woudl stop or slow a great deal of the ills currently associated with banks and, as jefferson warned, "the corporations that grow up around them".

I dunno.
call me old fashion.
I just think the whole idea of "no money" is BEYOND silly.
Its not that it CAN'T be done, its that even the guy here proposing it (if you read his website), admits that it would require a GLOBAL GOVERNMENT to make the resource allocation decisions. And i've got big news for you, if you think ANY government is semi-incompetent at what it does now (like balancing a budget), how the HELL do you think they will respond to the challenge of balancing the ENTIRETY of WORLD SUPPLY with the entirety of WORLD DEMAND? ???
The soviets couldn't even get it right for their barren plot of the world. And for fucks sake, they were still using money!