fascinating, but extremely sad study...

Pearl Jam and toast

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Better than a plastic bag world....like someone said...dream big....we lived without plastic bags all of a sudden we are tied to them now forever?

Like I said when economics (which is human only and puts us before the planet) takes priority over environmental impact that is a sign of arrogance....

Maybe if we devised some sort of way to properly recycle and re-use plastic bags things would be different but most are tossed which is essentially throwing away money.....I dunno I know its a pipe dream but I like that dream....

I understand what Surferdude is saying, but i have to agree that moving plastics out of our world as much as possible is probably a good idea.

surferdude

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

I understand what Surferdude is saying, but i have to agree that moving plastics out of our world as much as possible is probably a good idea.

It probably is but use science to prove it. Telling me to stop doing something because it is harmful without knowing what impact the alternative has is crazy. Do your homework first.

I know that I re-use every plastic bag I get at store as a kitchen garbage bag. So do most people I know. How will outlawing plastic bags help in this case?

I bike to work part out of concern for the environment and part out of health concerns. But I do know that my bike still has an impact on the environment, so does my increased food consumption. I know I'm probably having a favorable impact on my carbon imprint but couldn't say for sure. This lack of macro-level knowledge of our true impact on the environment is a real failure of the eco-movement.

Pearl Jam and toast

surferdude wrote:

It probably is but use science to prove it. Telling me to stop doing something because it is harmful without knowing what impact the alternative has is crazy. Do your homework first.

I know that I re-use every plastic bag I get at store as a kitchen garbage bag. So do most people I know. How will outlawing plastic bags help in this case?

Yeah there's a lot of technicality type issues around that. (I re-use them like that too ^_^ )

surferdude

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

Yeah there's a lot of technicality type issues around that. (I re-use them like that too ^_^ )

The eco-movement for all it's supposed science based reasoning relies on a scary amount of emotional propoganda.

Just look at their silence this summer and fall over the lack of devastating hurricanes on the Atlantic coast.

melodious

surferdude wrote:

I think it is the height of arrogance to think we can make the natural world better and "help nature and animals grow and flurish".

can you explain this a bit more? u see, i don't think gopj is being arrogant when she says what she says...u cannot know her intentions as well, unless you know a human as yourself; and that's always variable in itself..

We cannot do anything regarding nature better than nature does.

i like how you use we. however, you would be surpriese how much of an impact a single person can make...have you ever seen those psychological studies where the goal is to break group think..it has been written somewhere and u know i'm not one for citations, that it only takes one strong individual to break up a crowed..

All we can do as the most intelligent species is find ways to lessen our impact on nature while improving our living conditions. Every place we have gone and tried to manage the eco-system has been an abysmal failure. Managing an eco-system is far beyond our capabilities.

the dangerous word is manage; it sounds like a business; once again not in sync with natures' way. we as humans learn by mimic; how do you think this monkey see/monkey do phenomena began?

melodious

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Better than a plastic bag world....like someone said...dream big....we lived without plastic bags all of a sudden we are tied to them now forever?

Like I said when economics (which is human only and puts us before the planet) takes priority over environmental impact that is a sign of arrogance....

Maybe if we devised some sort of way to properly recycle and re-use plastic bags things would be different but most are tossed which is essentially throwing away money.....I dunno I know its a pipe dream but I like that dream....

u know i have always loved you, ric....i might add one more comment that s/m gave me a couple weeks back....plastic bags will become a thing of the past as our oil based economy diminishes....can you please tell me what plastic is a by product of......haven't you noticed that more and more grocery stores are going back to paper bags? maybe hemp would be the answer...it was used throughout all the ages and could even be an answer to balance of this methane leak in the siberian tundra....good to be able to contribute and particpate in the same thread, ric.....;)

Hoon

Um....anyone ever hear of a cloth bag for food?

Maybe P.J. should sell them in their "goods" section.

GirlofPJ

Hoon wrote:

Um....anyone ever hear of a cloth bag for food?

Maybe P.J. should sell them in their "goods" section.

Cloth bag sounds good. I always re-use my bags but i think we need a different material. Cloth would last for ages aswell, i like the hemp idea too! Another thing with recycling would be to reduce all the plastic that covers food. It just seems like such a waste and manufacturers don't always clearly label if it can be recycled or not.

Jeanwah

Hoon wrote:

Um....anyone ever hear of a cloth bag for food?

Maybe P.J. should sell them in their "goods" section.

That's a good idea. And I like the hemp too. Those plastic grocery bags have only been around for the past 20-25 years. Everything was paper (except trash bags) in the 70s, who says we can't do that again? And the way baggers in the grocery store put one or two items in a bag and give them to you is a waste. I always have to tell them to fill them up as much as possible. The stores should be more waste conscience.

melodious

maybe the "jammers' could atleast commit to asking for alternative to plastic bags when shopping? What a great suggestion.....!!!!!!

GirlofPJ

melodious wrote:

maybe the "jammers' could atleast commit to asking for alternative to plastic bags when shopping? What a great suggestion.....!!!!!!

Yeah i will and do!! Marks and Spencer sell cloth bags and big ones which we use, i think all shops should sell them. It is a great suggestion!!

surferdude

melodious wrote:

can you explain this a bit more? u see, i don't think gopj is being arrogant when she says what she says...u cannot know her intentions as well, unless you know a human as yourself; and that's always variable in itself.

Someone said we should "help nature and animals grow and flurish". I think it is arrogant to think we can realistically do this. How nature works is beyond us.

We cannot help nature flourish, we can only damage it less. Based on our history it would be arrogant to think we can help nature.

melodious wrote:

i like how you use we. however, you would be surpriese how much of an impact a single person can make...have you ever seen those psychological studies where the goal is to break group think..it has been written somewhere and u know i'm not one for citations, that it only takes one strong individual to break up a crowed.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the enviro movement.

melodious wrote:

the dangerous word is manage; it sounds like a business; once again not in sync with natures' way. we as humans learn by mimic; how do you think this monkey see/monkey do phenomena began?

There have been many well documented cases, one being at Yellowstone National Park where we tried to manage the eco-system and "help nature and animals grow and flurish". Everyone has been a failure. These had nothing to do with treating it as a business, in fact it was the exact opposite.

Facing facts, we know we do more damage to the eco-system than necessary. But we do not know how this damage really affects nature. Like last year the eco fear-mongerers were blaming every hurricane and tsunami on climate change and carbon based global warming. But they are suspiciously silent about the lack of hurricanes and tsunami damage done this year.

Climate change and to a big extent the eco-novement has moved from a science based debate to a political forum where propoganda rules. Like the push to do away with plastic bags without knowing what the impact this change will have.

GirlofPJ

Surferdude go back and read the post i put after you when you first arrogantly replied to what i put. I explain what i meant. We help nature by not destroying it-that way it can grow, we help animals by not being wasteful and killing them, thats how we help them flurish instead of becoming extinct. You're being the arrogant one by thinking you know what i meant when you didn't even read it properly.

surferdude

GirlofPJ wrote:

Surferdude go back and read the post i put after you when you first arrogantly replied to what i put. I explain what i meant. We help nature by not destroying it-that way it can grow, we help animals by not being wasteful and killing them, thats how we help them flurish instead of becoming extinct. You're being the arrogant one by thinking you know what i meant when you didn't even read it properly.

I apologise to you for the mis-understanding. I think we approach the notion of "helping nature" from different directions.

Most of my comments were not really directed at you but at the idea presented by many that we can "help" nature or that we can manage an eco-system.

GirlofPJ

surferdude wrote:

I apologise to you for the mis-understanding. I think we approach the notion of "helping nature" from different directions.

Most of my comments were not really directed at you but at the idea presented by many that we can "help" nature or that we can manage an eco-system.

I apologise for the misunderstanding too. Yeah like i said in my post when you first replied i think we meant the same thing but i just phrased it differently. This issue is important to me so i usually get carried away and probably could have phrased it better! By 'help' i think people mean taking more care with what we do to the earth instead of being so wasteful, not to mean control and try and improve nature because like you said we can't do it better than nature itself.

mca47

Out today.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/09/15/arctic.ice.reut/index.html

surferdude

mca47 wrote:

Out today.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/09/15/arctic.ice.reut/index.html

My favourite quote from the article is;

"It is not too late to save the Arctic, but it requires that we begin to slow carbon dioxide emissions this decade," James Hansen, director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, said in a statement.

He has no idea if it's too late or not. How can this so called scientist spew out stuff like this and still expect to be taken seriously? I appreciate what he's trying to do but he's a scientist he should stick to the facts.

melodious

I read earlier in this thread about someone discussing safe deterrants for ants and i know there are plants that repel ants. To find that particular answer, to that particular question, i will have to continue looking for the answer; however, this is a site sponsored by the Old Farmers Almanac, and it publishes many interesting related topics. I have bought this little rag faithfully for over 14 years, now....

This, according to melodious, is the one and only almanac and you can buy it at your local grocery store; but don't be decieved by copy-cats because there are others that claim they are as good as this one.....

http://www.almanac.com/question/index.php

enjoy, to those of you who have not been here before.....