An Inconvenient Truth

124

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  • Number 18
    Number 18 Posts: 132
    I could rattle off statistics about the correlation between man made C02 and increasing temperatures. I could talk about how the Larsen-B Ice Shelf in Antarctica, which had been stable for 10,000 years, suddenly disintegrated in 35 days, completely shocking the entire scientific community.

    Blah, blah, blah.

    Do you know what it comes down to? I grew up visiting places like Mount Rainier and Glacier National Parks and eventually became a Park Ranger. The glaciers are what make places like these magical and stunning. So what if this is "propoganda?" What if we actually take steps to prevent something that may or may not happen? Wouldn't that be better than paying the price if it did happen? I know I don't want to explain to my kids why all the glaciers are gone.

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?p=3399519#post3399519
  • LaterDays
    LaterDays Posts: 142
    Let's do a roll call real quick on who here, with such strong opinions either way, is an actual scientist in the field:

    I'm a physicist. Any geophysicists or climate experts enjoying this dialogue as much as me?
    "You are everything, and everything is you. Me, you... you, me -- it's all related."
  • sourdough
    sourdough Posts: 579
    I don't really qualify as a scientist, but I earned my degree in environmental geography and am currently working on an environmental education minor. Yes, I am enjoying the debate. I think the problem is that in schools etc, you only have discourse with people who think along the same lines as you and have the same facts, so its interesting to see where the general population lies on this subject.

    As crazy as this world is right now, I still see climate change as the number 1 threat to my personal health and my biggest concern in general. I don't believe I qualify as a doomsdayer, but I accept that there are harsh environment realities which are quite evident if you look around at the amount of impact we are having on our planet and the general apathy there is on a very important issue.
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    sourdough wrote:
    I don't really qualify as a scientist, but I earned my degree in environmental geography and am currently working on an environmental education minor. Yes, I am enjoying the debate. I think the problem is that in schools etc, you only have discourse with people who think along the same lines as you and have the same facts, so its interesting to see where the general population lies on this subject.

    As crazy as this world is right now, I still see climate change as the number 1 threat to my personal health and my biggest concern in general. I don't believe I qualify as a doomsdayer, but I accept that there are harsh environment realities which are quite evident if you look around at the amount of impact we are having on our planet and the general apathy there is on a very important issue.
    I'm not a scientist but like to think I strike a fair balance between being pro-environment and realistic. I don't see climate change as a threat to me health. It is a threat to my way of life. Any change will be gradual enough that I believe we will be able to adapt but I would rather not get to that point.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    surferdude wrote:
    I'm not a scientist but like to think I strike a fair balance between being pro-environment and realistic. I don't see climate change as a threat to me health. It is a threat to my way of life. Any change will be gradual enough that I believe we will be able to adapt but I would rather not get to that point.
    Well, you obviously don't live in New Orleans.....but rest assured, while stronger and more frequent hurricanes are a more obvious effect of climate change, there are plenty of other ways it will indeed threaten your health.
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Well, you obviously don't live in New Orleans.....but rest assured, while stronger and more frequent hurricanes are a more obvious effect of climate change, there are plenty of other ways it will indeed threaten your health.
    And there are plenty of relatively easy ways to adapt so that it's not a health issue.

    When ozone layer weakened it's not like we started toppling over dieing of cancer. We adapted, started wearing more shirts, hats and sunscreen. We made lifestyle changes in response. This is how humans can best protect themselves from climate change.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • 1970RR
    1970RR Posts: 281
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Well, you obviously don't live in New Orleans.....but rest assured, while stronger and more frequent hurricanes are a more obvious effect of climate change, there are plenty of other ways it will indeed threaten your health.
    Not everyone agrees about the hurricanes: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/15137504.htm
  • RockinInCanada
    RockinInCanada Posts: 2,016
    surferdude wrote:
    And there are plenty of relatively easy ways to adapt so that it's not a health issue.

    When ozone layer weakened it's not like we started toppling over dieing of cancer. We adapted, started wearing more shirts, hats and sunscreen. We made lifestyle changes in response. This is how humans can best protect themselves from climate change.

    Mother nature will ultimatly crush us.....no matter how much we do to protect ourselves...as for the idea of global warming...I have no idea but I am assured that something is changing...the weather is getting ridiculous already...plus I have extensive background in chemistry (Im a chemical engineer) and all the professors/professionals I have talked to all agree things are changing but the root cause is still unknown...so many theories but no definte cause yet....
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    1970RR wrote:
    Not everyone agrees about the hurricanes: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/15137504.htm
    Not anyone agrees that we landed on the moon either, but we're all in this together. Climate change affects nearly everything on the planet, I have a very hard time believing it doesn't affect hurricanes, as would most logical people.
  • RockinInCanada
    RockinInCanada Posts: 2,016
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Not anyone agrees that we landed on the moon either, but we're all in this together. Climate change affects nearly everything on the planet, I have a very hard time believing it doesn't affect hurricanes, as would most logical people.

    A hotter than normal ocean will produce more hurricanes.....I defiently believe higher temperatures are leading to more violent hurricanes....
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    Rockin'InCanada wrote:
    A hotter than normal ocean will produce more hurricanes.....I defiently believe higher temperatures are leading to more violent hurricanes....
    As do many scientists. And don't forget about the melting ice caps that are increasing the ocean levels. I guess it just makes too much sense for some people to grasp.
  • RockinInCanada
    RockinInCanada Posts: 2,016
    don't gimme no wrote:
    As do many scientists. And don't forget about the melting ice caps that are increasing the ocean levels. I guess it just makes too much sense for some people to grasp.

    Melting ice is obviously directed to increase of temperature...with more "warm" water than frozen water the entire ocean will gradually swing to a higher equlibrium temperature...as the mass of ice continues to decrease the ocean will steadily become hotter....to reach equlibrium...simply put it is Le'Chatiliers (unsure of spelling) principle.
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    don't gimme no wrote:
    As do many scientists. And don't forget about the melting ice caps that are increasing the ocean levels. I guess it just makes too much sense for some people to grasp.
    So are you saying that the National Hurricane Center is using faulty science. Pretty brazen accusation. I do like how when you don't like the facts presented by the National Hurricane Center that you poke fun at them for not having sense. That's the kind of reasoned debate I've come to look forward to regarding climate change and other environmental issues.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    Hey, I saw an amazing special on the discovery channel the other day. Here's a link http://dsc.discovery.com/tvlistings/episode.jsp?episode=0&cpi=25252&gid=0&channel=DSC. It's airing a couple more times this weekend and I highly recommend it. I'm assuming the times are EDT and the first time it's on is tomorrow at 2pm. It's two hours long and deals a lot with how global warming is adversely affecting different species, which I found very interesting, yet quite bothersome.
  • RockinInCanada
    RockinInCanada Posts: 2,016
    surferdude wrote:
    So are you saying that the National Hurricane Center is using faulty science. Pretty brazen accusation. I do like how when you don't like the facts presented by the National Hurricane Center that you poke fun at them for not having sense. That's the kind of reasoned debate I've come to look forward to regarding climate change and other environmental issues.

    So the multitude of scientists that think humans are causing global warming can be ignored as irrelevant.

    My point is that no one knows what exactly is causing it but we know it is definetly occuring. The point I think many like Al Gore make is that we has humans, stewards of this planet, KNOW what we are doing that could POTENTIALLY cause it...therefore we should correct our actions...however inevitably it could be the planet just being a planet and since we only have roughly a century or more of detailed knowledge and data we could be doing nothing at all...and that is main stumbling block right now....we need something concrete....
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    surferdude wrote:
    So are you saying that the National Hurricane Center is using faulty science. Pretty brazen accusation. I do like how when you don't like the facts presented by the National Hurricane Center that you poke fun at them for not having sense. That's the kind of reasoned debate I've come to look forward to regarding climate change and other environmental issues.
    Faulty science? Your source is weak at best. They say they're not sure of the effects that global warming has on hurricanes. It's inconclusive. Scientists are in fact divided on this issue, but it's not in the sense that you're arguing. One side is saying that global warming has caused stronger and more frequent hurricanes while the other side is saying they really can't determine that. From my understanding, no one is flat out saying that global warming doesn't effect hurricanes.
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    Rockin'InCanada wrote:
    So the multitude of scientists that think humans are causing global warming can be ignored as irrelevant.
    I'm not saying that at all. But here we have experts in a specific field not disputing global warming and climate change but it's affect on hurricane frequency and force. It disturbs me that scientists then try to make fun of the individual rather than dispute the facts or science used in this case. In my books any scientist who resorts to ridicule and can't stick to the facts is no scientist.
    Rockin'InCanada wrote:
    My point is that no one knows what exactly is causing it but we know it is definetly occuring. The point I think many like Al Gore make is that we has humans, stewards of this planet, KNOW what we are doing that could POTENTIALLY cause it...therefore we should correct our actions...however inevitably it could be the planet just being a planet and since we only have roughly a century or more of detailed knowledge and data we could be doing nothing at all...and that is main stumbling block right now....we need something concrete....
    Agree. But situations like the above only make the need for an accurate climate model and "something concrete" more important. They do a dis-service to the issue when they can't stick to science.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Faulty science? Your source is weak at best.
    If the National Hurrican Centre is a weak source of information regarding hurricanes where would you suggest I go?
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • RockinInCanada
    RockinInCanada Posts: 2,016
    surferdude wrote:
    I'm not saying that at all. But here we have experts in a specific field not disputing global warming and climate change but it's affect on hurricane frequency and force. It disturbs me that scientists then try to make fun of the individual rather than dispute the facts or science used in this case. In my books any scientist who resorts to ridicule and can't stick to the facts is no scientist.

    Agree. But situations like the above only make the need for an accurate climate model and "something concrete" more important. They do a dis-service to the issue when they can't stick to science.

    And this is the problem...scientists need to work together to investigate the weather phenomena than spend time bickering and rebutting the causes...if we can pin down what is occurring we then could take the appropriate action...that being said there is the option that none of this is man-made and like I said it could be Earth being Earth which would mean we are screwed if things get worse....its very interesting topic...people need to spend less time breaking down a person for his theory....and yes something concrete is needed to get everyone on board for an effective plan....
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    surferdude wrote:
    If the National Hurrican Centre is a weak source of information regarding hurricanes where would you suggest I go?
    Well, it doesn't support your argument, that's what I'm saying. The source itself is valid, but not consistent with your posts. Hope that makes sense. My point is that it's the scientists saying it does affect hurricanes against the scientists that are saying it may or may not. There's no real opposition, just some maybes. At least that's what I got from the link you provided.

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