I could rattle off statistics about the correlation between man made C02 and increasing temperatures. I could talk about how the Larsen-B Ice Shelf in Antarctica, which had been stable for 10,000 years, suddenly disintegrated in 35 days, completely shocking the entire scientific community.
Blah, blah, blah.
Do you know what it comes down to? I grew up visiting places like Mount Rainier and Glacier National Parks and eventually became a Park Ranger. The glaciers are what make places like these magical and stunning. So what if this is "propoganda?" What if we actually take steps to prevent something that may or may not happen? Wouldn't that be better than paying the price if it did happen? I know I don't want to explain to my kids why all the glaciers are gone.
I don't really qualify as a scientist, but I earned my degree in environmental geography and am currently working on an environmental education minor. Yes, I am enjoying the debate. I think the problem is that in schools etc, you only have discourse with people who think along the same lines as you and have the same facts, so its interesting to see where the general population lies on this subject.
As crazy as this world is right now, I still see climate change as the number 1 threat to my personal health and my biggest concern in general. I don't believe I qualify as a doomsdayer, but I accept that there are harsh environment realities which are quite evident if you look around at the amount of impact we are having on our planet and the general apathy there is on a very important issue.
I don't really qualify as a scientist, but I earned my degree in environmental geography and am currently working on an environmental education minor. Yes, I am enjoying the debate. I think the problem is that in schools etc, you only have discourse with people who think along the same lines as you and have the same facts, so its interesting to see where the general population lies on this subject.
As crazy as this world is right now, I still see climate change as the number 1 threat to my personal health and my biggest concern in general. I don't believe I qualify as a doomsdayer, but I accept that there are harsh environment realities which are quite evident if you look around at the amount of impact we are having on our planet and the general apathy there is on a very important issue.
I'm not a scientist but like to think I strike a fair balance between being pro-environment and realistic. I don't see climate change as a threat to me health. It is a threat to my way of life. Any change will be gradual enough that I believe we will be able to adapt but I would rather not get to that point.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I'm not a scientist but like to think I strike a fair balance between being pro-environment and realistic. I don't see climate change as a threat to me health. It is a threat to my way of life. Any change will be gradual enough that I believe we will be able to adapt but I would rather not get to that point.
Well, you obviously don't live in New Orleans.....but rest assured, while stronger and more frequent hurricanes are a more obvious effect of climate change, there are plenty of other ways it will indeed threaten your health.
Well, you obviously don't live in New Orleans.....but rest assured, while stronger and more frequent hurricanes are a more obvious effect of climate change, there are plenty of other ways it will indeed threaten your health.
And there are plenty of relatively easy ways to adapt so that it's not a health issue.
When ozone layer weakened it's not like we started toppling over dieing of cancer. We adapted, started wearing more shirts, hats and sunscreen. We made lifestyle changes in response. This is how humans can best protect themselves from climate change.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Well, you obviously don't live in New Orleans.....but rest assured, while stronger and more frequent hurricanes are a more obvious effect of climate change, there are plenty of other ways it will indeed threaten your health.
And there are plenty of relatively easy ways to adapt so that it's not a health issue.
When ozone layer weakened it's not like we started toppling over dieing of cancer. We adapted, started wearing more shirts, hats and sunscreen. We made lifestyle changes in response. This is how humans can best protect themselves from climate change.
Mother nature will ultimatly crush us.....no matter how much we do to protect ourselves...as for the idea of global warming...I have no idea but I am assured that something is changing...the weather is getting ridiculous already...plus I have extensive background in chemistry (Im a chemical engineer) and all the professors/professionals I have talked to all agree things are changing but the root cause is still unknown...so many theories but no definte cause yet....
Not anyone agrees that we landed on the moon either, but we're all in this together. Climate change affects nearly everything on the planet, I have a very hard time believing it doesn't affect hurricanes, as would most logical people.
Not anyone agrees that we landed on the moon either, but we're all in this together. Climate change affects nearly everything on the planet, I have a very hard time believing it doesn't affect hurricanes, as would most logical people.
A hotter than normal ocean will produce more hurricanes.....I defiently believe higher temperatures are leading to more violent hurricanes....
A hotter than normal ocean will produce more hurricanes.....I defiently believe higher temperatures are leading to more violent hurricanes....
As do many scientists. And don't forget about the melting ice caps that are increasing the ocean levels. I guess it just makes too much sense for some people to grasp.
As do many scientists. And don't forget about the melting ice caps that are increasing the ocean levels. I guess it just makes too much sense for some people to grasp.
Melting ice is obviously directed to increase of temperature...with more "warm" water than frozen water the entire ocean will gradually swing to a higher equlibrium temperature...as the mass of ice continues to decrease the ocean will steadily become hotter....to reach equlibrium...simply put it is Le'Chatiliers (unsure of spelling) principle.
As do many scientists. And don't forget about the melting ice caps that are increasing the ocean levels. I guess it just makes too much sense for some people to grasp.
So are you saying that the National Hurricane Center is using faulty science. Pretty brazen accusation. I do like how when you don't like the facts presented by the National Hurricane Center that you poke fun at them for not having sense. That's the kind of reasoned debate I've come to look forward to regarding climate change and other environmental issues.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Hey, I saw an amazing special on the discovery channel the other day. Here's a link http://dsc.discovery.com/tvlistings/episode.jsp?episode=0&cpi=25252&gid=0&channel=DSC. It's airing a couple more times this weekend and I highly recommend it. I'm assuming the times are EDT and the first time it's on is tomorrow at 2pm. It's two hours long and deals a lot with how global warming is adversely affecting different species, which I found very interesting, yet quite bothersome.
So are you saying that the National Hurricane Center is using faulty science. Pretty brazen accusation. I do like how when you don't like the facts presented by the National Hurricane Center that you poke fun at them for not having sense. That's the kind of reasoned debate I've come to look forward to regarding climate change and other environmental issues.
So the multitude of scientists that think humans are causing global warming can be ignored as irrelevant.
My point is that no one knows what exactly is causing it but we know it is definetly occuring. The point I think many like Al Gore make is that we has humans, stewards of this planet, KNOW what we are doing that could POTENTIALLY cause it...therefore we should correct our actions...however inevitably it could be the planet just being a planet and since we only have roughly a century or more of detailed knowledge and data we could be doing nothing at all...and that is main stumbling block right now....we need something concrete....
So are you saying that the National Hurricane Center is using faulty science. Pretty brazen accusation. I do like how when you don't like the facts presented by the National Hurricane Center that you poke fun at them for not having sense. That's the kind of reasoned debate I've come to look forward to regarding climate change and other environmental issues.
Faulty science? Your source is weak at best. They say they're not sure of the effects that global warming has on hurricanes. It's inconclusive. Scientists are in fact divided on this issue, but it's not in the sense that you're arguing. One side is saying that global warming has caused stronger and more frequent hurricanes while the other side is saying they really can't determine that. From my understanding, no one is flat out saying that global warming doesn't effect hurricanes.
So the multitude of scientists that think humans are causing global warming can be ignored as irrelevant.
I'm not saying that at all. But here we have experts in a specific field not disputing global warming and climate change but it's affect on hurricane frequency and force. It disturbs me that scientists then try to make fun of the individual rather than dispute the facts or science used in this case. In my books any scientist who resorts to ridicule and can't stick to the facts is no scientist.
My point is that no one knows what exactly is causing it but we know it is definetly occuring. The point I think many like Al Gore make is that we has humans, stewards of this planet, KNOW what we are doing that could POTENTIALLY cause it...therefore we should correct our actions...however inevitably it could be the planet just being a planet and since we only have roughly a century or more of detailed knowledge and data we could be doing nothing at all...and that is main stumbling block right now....we need something concrete....
Agree. But situations like the above only make the need for an accurate climate model and "something concrete" more important. They do a dis-service to the issue when they can't stick to science.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I'm not saying that at all. But here we have experts in a specific field not disputing global warming and climate change but it's affect on hurricane frequency and force. It disturbs me that scientists then try to make fun of the individual rather than dispute the facts or science used in this case. In my books any scientist who resorts to ridicule and can't stick to the facts is no scientist.
Agree. But situations like the above only make the need for an accurate climate model and "something concrete" more important. They do a dis-service to the issue when they can't stick to science.
And this is the problem...scientists need to work together to investigate the weather phenomena than spend time bickering and rebutting the causes...if we can pin down what is occurring we then could take the appropriate action...that being said there is the option that none of this is man-made and like I said it could be Earth being Earth which would mean we are screwed if things get worse....its very interesting topic...people need to spend less time breaking down a person for his theory....and yes something concrete is needed to get everyone on board for an effective plan....
If the National Hurrican Centre is a weak source of information regarding hurricanes where would you suggest I go?
Well, it doesn't support your argument, that's what I'm saying. The source itself is valid, but not consistent with your posts. Hope that makes sense. My point is that it's the scientists saying it does affect hurricanes against the scientists that are saying it may or may not. There's no real opposition, just some maybes. At least that's what I got from the link you provided.
And there are plenty of relatively easy ways to adapt so that it's not a health issue.
When ozone layer weakened it's not like we started toppling over dieing of cancer. We adapted, started wearing more shirts, hats and sunscreen. We made lifestyle changes in response. This is how humans can best protect themselves from climate change.
The ozone was a bit easier to remedy though. Only a few pollutants that weren't that difficult to eliminate from daily life were the problem (mainly CFC's from aerosol cans). CO2, methane and other greenhouse gasses are much harder to find quick fixes for.
As for the health point of view, if you live in southern Chile, they live under the hole in the ozone and it is dangerous for them to walk out in the streets with ANY skin exposed for any amount of time.
I don't know how we are going to adapt to flooded coastal cities, new diseases and severe drought. All of these are going to be symptoms of a warmer climate. Even without a warming climate we are going to be running short of fresh water, but if our glaciers are gone, I can't help but think that we're going to have lots of problems. (Surferdude and I may not notice it as much being on the west coast of a rainforest but the vast majority of people will.)
I don't know how we are going to adapt to flooded coastal cities, new diseases and severe drought. All of these are going to be symptoms of a warmer climate. Even without a warming climate we are going to be running short of fresh water, but if our glaciers are gone, I can't help but think that we're going to have lots of problems. (Surferdude and I may not notice it as much being on the west coast of a rainforest but the vast majority of people will.)
People will move. New medicines will be invented. A drought in one place will most likely be offset by more rain in another. Potable water may be an issue but I've thought this has always been our most pressing environmental issue.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Because we only discovered the ozone hole in 1985 I think its hard to tell if its humans that caused that hole to open up. The hole might just go through a cycles. Even back in 2003 the ozone hole shrunk by 20 per cent.
Chicago '98, Noblesville '00, East Troy '00, Chicago '00, Champaign '03, Chicago '03, Chicago1 '06, Chicago2 '06, Milwaukee '06, Chicago1 '09, and Chicago2 '09
I think they demonstrated the effect of CFC's on ozone, and since its ban it has begun healing itself. Can you provide a source for it shrinking 20%? I've never heard of that before.
I think they demonstrated the effect of CFC's on ozone, and since its ban it has begun healing itself. Can you provide a source for it shrinking 20%? I've never heard of that before.
I belive it is common knowledge that it started shrinking a few years back, check google or yahoo. Some scientists think it shrunk because of the ban and some scientists think it shrunk because of a cycle it goes through.
Chicago '98, Noblesville '00, East Troy '00, Chicago '00, Champaign '03, Chicago '03, Chicago1 '06, Chicago2 '06, Milwaukee '06, Chicago1 '09, and Chicago2 '09
I belive it is common knowledge that it started shrinking a few years back, check google or yahoo. Some scientists think it shrunk because of the ban and some scientists think it shrunk because of a cycle it goes through.
Sorry, I misunderstood your post. Yes, the hole is shrinking due to the ban on CFC's that I mentioned earlier, the hole has begun to heal itself and has therefore shrunk. This does not show that it goes through cycles, but that it is able to rebuild itself.
Sorry, I misunderstood your post. Yes, the hole is shrinking due to the ban on CFC's that I mentioned earlier, the hole has begun to heal itself and has therefore shrunk. This does not show that it goes through cycles, but that it is able to rebuild itself.
Shrinking due to the ban on CFC may be completely true. But when the hole was only discoverd back in 1985 its hard to prove.
An example of that logic is if everyone in New Orleans stops driving cars and a hurricane never hits the city for the next 100 years. Is it safe to say that driving cars in New Orleans caused the hurricane to hit?
Chicago '98, Noblesville '00, East Troy '00, Chicago '00, Champaign '03, Chicago '03, Chicago1 '06, Chicago2 '06, Milwaukee '06, Chicago1 '09, and Chicago2 '09
Comments
Blah, blah, blah.
Do you know what it comes down to? I grew up visiting places like Mount Rainier and Glacier National Parks and eventually became a Park Ranger. The glaciers are what make places like these magical and stunning. So what if this is "propoganda?" What if we actually take steps to prevent something that may or may not happen? Wouldn't that be better than paying the price if it did happen? I know I don't want to explain to my kids why all the glaciers are gone.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?p=3399519#post3399519
I'm a physicist. Any geophysicists or climate experts enjoying this dialogue as much as me?
As crazy as this world is right now, I still see climate change as the number 1 threat to my personal health and my biggest concern in general. I don't believe I qualify as a doomsdayer, but I accept that there are harsh environment realities which are quite evident if you look around at the amount of impact we are having on our planet and the general apathy there is on a very important issue.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
When ozone layer weakened it's not like we started toppling over dieing of cancer. We adapted, started wearing more shirts, hats and sunscreen. We made lifestyle changes in response. This is how humans can best protect themselves from climate change.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Mother nature will ultimatly crush us.....no matter how much we do to protect ourselves...as for the idea of global warming...I have no idea but I am assured that something is changing...the weather is getting ridiculous already...plus I have extensive background in chemistry (Im a chemical engineer) and all the professors/professionals I have talked to all agree things are changing but the root cause is still unknown...so many theories but no definte cause yet....
A hotter than normal ocean will produce more hurricanes.....I defiently believe higher temperatures are leading to more violent hurricanes....
Melting ice is obviously directed to increase of temperature...with more "warm" water than frozen water the entire ocean will gradually swing to a higher equlibrium temperature...as the mass of ice continues to decrease the ocean will steadily become hotter....to reach equlibrium...simply put it is Le'Chatiliers (unsure of spelling) principle.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
So the multitude of scientists that think humans are causing global warming can be ignored as irrelevant.
My point is that no one knows what exactly is causing it but we know it is definetly occuring. The point I think many like Al Gore make is that we has humans, stewards of this planet, KNOW what we are doing that could POTENTIALLY cause it...therefore we should correct our actions...however inevitably it could be the planet just being a planet and since we only have roughly a century or more of detailed knowledge and data we could be doing nothing at all...and that is main stumbling block right now....we need something concrete....
Agree. But situations like the above only make the need for an accurate climate model and "something concrete" more important. They do a dis-service to the issue when they can't stick to science.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
And this is the problem...scientists need to work together to investigate the weather phenomena than spend time bickering and rebutting the causes...if we can pin down what is occurring we then could take the appropriate action...that being said there is the option that none of this is man-made and like I said it could be Earth being Earth which would mean we are screwed if things get worse....its very interesting topic...people need to spend less time breaking down a person for his theory....and yes something concrete is needed to get everyone on board for an effective plan....
The ozone was a bit easier to remedy though. Only a few pollutants that weren't that difficult to eliminate from daily life were the problem (mainly CFC's from aerosol cans). CO2, methane and other greenhouse gasses are much harder to find quick fixes for.
As for the health point of view, if you live in southern Chile, they live under the hole in the ozone and it is dangerous for them to walk out in the streets with ANY skin exposed for any amount of time.
I don't know how we are going to adapt to flooded coastal cities, new diseases and severe drought. All of these are going to be symptoms of a warmer climate. Even without a warming climate we are going to be running short of fresh water, but if our glaciers are gone, I can't help but think that we're going to have lots of problems. (Surferdude and I may not notice it as much being on the west coast of a rainforest but the vast majority of people will.)
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I belive it is common knowledge that it started shrinking a few years back, check google or yahoo. Some scientists think it shrunk because of the ban and some scientists think it shrunk because of a cycle it goes through.
Sorry, I misunderstood your post. Yes, the hole is shrinking due to the ban on CFC's that I mentioned earlier, the hole has begun to heal itself and has therefore shrunk. This does not show that it goes through cycles, but that it is able to rebuild itself.
Shrinking due to the ban on CFC may be completely true. But when the hole was only discoverd back in 1985 its hard to prove.
An example of that logic is if everyone in New Orleans stops driving cars and a hurricane never hits the city for the next 100 years. Is it safe to say that driving cars in New Orleans caused the hurricane to hit?