Criminalizing Home Schoolers

Snake

Thats total bullshit!
I was home schooled all my life, and (contrary to what you might) think I am very smart!
As far as I know, you already have to have a high school degree to home school your kids, and that makes perfect sense. But to take it as far as having to have credentials, thats stupid.

cornnifer

Kel Varnsen wrote:

The other problem I have read is that a lot of parents home school their kids because the school district is teaching things that go against their beliefs (ie evolution).

This is largely correct. Also, negative peer interactions and exposure to negative social elements. (Drugs, sexuality, bullying, etc.) i don't really have a problem with that. i think the problem arises when the child does not learn how to socialize at all due to such strict sheltering. Also lack of exposure to all of what society has to offer may lead to an inability to deal with it as an adult. Not only are these kids suddenly exposed to things they have been isolated from, they have not had an oprotunity to build up an immunity, so to speak. Kind of like how your flu shot actually contains some of the flu virus.

Kel Varnsen

angelica wrote:

:eek:
Prove to whom? And why?

We don't have to prove we are one of the 2% of the population who is considered to be psychologically healthy and flourishing in order to raise our children....

We're so caught up in man-made social structures and institutions, and we've lost touch with the reality that is within and surrounds us in each moment.

How about for starters if you want to be able to teach your kids long division, or trigonometry, you should have to prove that you understand those concepts. Otherwise the state or province you are in shouldn't have to certify that your kid passed what ever grade you said he is in, and shouldn't have to give him or her a highschool diploma after grade 12. Besides if people think anyone is capable of giving homeschooling their child up to grade 12, why stop there? Why shouldn't a parent be allowed to teach their kid at a university level? If a parent doesn't have to prove that they know grade 8 math to teach it to their kid, why can't they teach 2nd year multi-variable calculus without having to prove they know it?

NMyTree

MrSmith wrote:

Croskey declared that "California courts have held that under provisions in the Education Code, parents do not have a constitutional right to home school their children." .

....and the slipnoose of American Facism, pulls tighter around the necks of it's people.


Judge H. Walter Croskey should be removed from his bench, fired, thrown out and banned from ever holding such a position, ever again.

This man is everything that is wrong with this country. This man is as UnAmerican as they come.

This is freedom? This is 'Democracy"?

Who is he to dicatate how parents educate their children!?!?!?!

angelica

Kel Varnsen wrote:

How about for starters if you want to be able to teach your kids long division, or trigonometry, you should have to prove that you understand those concepts. Otherwise the state or province you are in shouldn't have to certify that your kid passed what ever grade you said he is in, and shouldn't have to give him or her a highschool diploma after grade 12. Besides if people think anyone is capable of giving homeschooling their child up to grade 12, why stop there? Why shouldn't a parent be allowed to teach their kid at a university level?

What you propose sounds to me like supporting and justifying the tail wagging the dog.

I think it's more than sufficient that the children prove their knowledge of the subjects by meeting the expected educational standards as expected. And as it's been pointed out, homeschooled children often surpass such expectations and are ahead of publicly educated children.

As per Pj Gurl's link: "In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile. i


This was confirmed in another study by Dr. Lawrence Rudner of 20,760 homeschooled students which found the homeschoolers who have homeschooled all their school aged years had the highest academic achievement. This was especially apparent in the higher grades. ii This is a good encouragement to families catch the long-range vision and homeschool through high school."

"These findings show that when parents, regardless of race, commit themselves to make the necessary sacrifices and tutor their children at home, almost all obstacles present in other school systems disappear."

"Further, Dr. Ray found no significant statistical differences in academic achievement between those students taught by parents with less formal education and those students taught by parents with higher formal education.

Kel Varnsen

angelica wrote:

This was confirmed in another study by Dr. Lawrence Rudner of 20,760 homeschooled students which found the homeschoolers who have homeschooled all their school aged years had the highest academic achievement. This was especially apparent in the higher grades. ii This is a good encouragement to families catch the long-range vision and homeschool through high school."

"These findings show that when parents, regardless of race, commit themselves to make the necessary sacrifices and tutor their children at home, almost all obstacles present in other school systems disappear."

"Further, Dr. Ray found no significant statistical differences in academic achievement between those students taught by parents with less formal education and those students taught by parents with higher formal education.

I checked out those links both of those studies by Ray and Rudner were published by the National Home Education Research Institute and the Home School Legal Defense Association respectively. Whether they are correct or not, they are hardly what I would call independent research.

1970RR

Im not sure what kind of homeschoolers some of you have been around, but my kids and the other kids that I have dealings with are nothing like that. These kids are involved with other home school kids through a variety of groups that provide much interaction for the kids as well as coordinating with local parks, museums, universities to provide a wide-range of educational and physical activities. None of them are sheltered and as hard as it is to believe, they do interact with other kids in a normal fashion.

IMO, there is a misconception on home schooling as it is practiced today and many people immediately associate it with religious extremism and/or a bubbleboy existance. Many parents, including myself, are simply fed up with the public school system and have made the commitment to educate their children themselves.

Certainly a poorly educated parent will prove to be a poor teacher. But my experience with dozens of actual home schooling parents has been that they are highly educated, highly motivated and dedicated to providing their children with the best education possible.

Just as an effort is involved in providing a good home education, so to is an effort involved to provide interaction with other kids. Homeschooling is not for everyone, but you certainly dont need to be a licensed teacher either.

angelica

Kel Varnsen wrote:

I checked out those links both of those by Ray and Rudner were published by the National Home Education Research Institute and the Home School Legal Defense Association respectively. Whether they are correct or not, they are hardly what I would call independent research.

That you mention whether the reseach is "correct or not" as an aside is interesting to me. You somehow illustrate my basic point with such an aside, really...when "independent reseach", and "education" is more important than the reality of the situation.

angelica

1970RR wrote:

IMO, there is a misconception on home schooling as it is practiced today and many people immediately associate it with religious extremism and/or a bubbleboy existance. Many parents, including myself, are simply fed up with the public school system and have made the commitment to educate their children themselves.

To go a step further, those who rail against those who practice religious extremism and who seek to control such beliefs and extremism through government agencies filtered through the guise of education are guilty of the thought control practices such individuals often themselves disdain and warn against.

Kel Varnsen

angelica wrote:

That you mention whether the reseach is "correct or not" as an aside is interesting to me. You somehow illustrate my basic point with such an aside, really...when "independent reseach", and "education" is more important than the reality of the situation.

But how do you know if the research you cited is true if it was paid for by Pro-Home schooling groups? The fact that they are the ones paying for it loses all its credibility to me (even if it is true). That is like citing one of those scientists who says that smoking doesn't cause cancer, who just happened to have their research paid for by Marlboro.

angelica

Kel Varnsen wrote:

But how do you know if the research you cited is true if it was paid for by Pro-Home schooling groups? The fact that they are the ones paying for it loses all its credibility to me (even if it is true). That is like citing one of those scientists who says that smoking doesn't cause cancer, who just happened to have their research paid for by Marlboro.

This is my point. This comes down to discernment of information. Discernment of information is not the focus of the public school systems and in our society in general.

You say this debatable information "loses all its credibility to me (even if it is true)".

In reality, we have some information on homeschooling. It's possible that it's accurate and it's possibly biased. And yet due to the power you give to the concept of "independent research", you've distorted your own research and have handed over your ability to discern possibilities, fine lines and facts/data, to where there is no credibility here for you at all. You have therefore minimized potentially valid information to your own self, even knowing it may be true!

Such shortcuts distort the truth, and are taught to us all the time. And many of us choose to buy into them, often without realizing the cost to our own awareness.

Again, I refer to self-actualizing people who are known to have superior reasoning abilities, and the ability to see beyond social structures to what is there....

"Realistically oriented, a Self-Actualizing (SA) person has a more efficient perception of reality, and has comfortable relations with it. This is extended to all areas of life. A Self-Actualizing person is unthreatened and unfrightened by the unknown."

By being unthreatened by the unknown, one can truly discern possibilites beyond what is "taught" and socially sanctioned. Therefore, one is more able to have polar opposites of exact truths/untruths resolve into an acceptance of "what is". Sometimes not knowing, and being able to embrace the possibilities around us is the only way to be realistic. Ask any true scientist.

GreenTeaDisease

cornnifer wrote:

This is largely correct. Also, negative peer interactions and exposure to negative social elements. (Drugs, sexuality, bullying, etc.) i don't really have a problem with that. i think the problem arises when the child does not learn how to socialize at all due to such strict sheltering. Also lack of exposure to all of what society has to offer may lead to an inability to deal with it as an adult. Not only are these kids suddenly exposed to things they have been isolated from, they have not had an oprotunity to build up an immunity, so to speak. Kind of like how your flu shot actually contains some of the flu virus.

I think you gutta expose your kids to these negative things. it's all part of life. And not only the negative things, but you have to expose your kids to diversity- other cultures, other languages, other types of families, other socio-economic groups, etc. I don't know how kids get that at some private schools, let alone when they're home schooled.

GreenTeaDisease

Snake wrote:

T
As far as I know, you already have to have a high school degree to home school your kids, and that makes perfect sense. But to take it as far as having to have credentials, thats stupid.

damn, I would NEVER let someone with just a high school diploma educate my children. I have a problem with the number of teachers who go to crappy colleges and don't have graduate degrees and just teach cause they get summers off as it is.

Abookamongstthemany

GreenTeaDisease wrote:

damn, I would NEVER let someone with just a high school diploma educate my children. I have a problem with the number of teachers who go to crappy colleges and don't have graduate degrees and just teach cause they get summers off as it is.

"College isn't the place to go for ideas."
~Helen Keller

"The number of books will grow continually, and one can predict that a time will come when it will be almost as difficult to learn anything from books as from the direct study of the whole universe. It will be almost as convenient to search for some bit of truth concealed in nature as it will be to find it hidden away in an immense multitude of bound volumes."
~Denis Diderot


"Education... has produced a vast population able to read but unable to distinguish what is worth reading. "
~G. M. Trevelyan

"Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices."
~Laurence J. Peter

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education".
~Mark Twain

cornnifer

GreenTeaDisease wrote:

I think you gutta expose your kids to these negative things. it's all part of life. And not only the negative things, but you have to expose your kids to diversity- other cultures, other languages, other types of families, other socio-economic groups, etc. I don't know how kids get that at some private schools, let alone when they're home schooled.

Agreed. Was kinda my point.

KosmicJelli

Bullshit... just another way to make sure your children are brainwashed and partt of the status quo....

blackredyellow

KosmicJelli wrote:

Bullshit... just another way to make sure your children are brainwashed and partt of the status quo....

Yup... learning advanced math and science from people who spent years studying it sure is brainwashing them.

:rolleyes:

angelica

blackredyellow wrote:

Yup... learning advanced math and science from people who spent years studying it sure is brainwashing them.

:rolleyes:

What do you think of this earlier quote apparently from the judge's ruling, as cited earlier by 1970RR?:

“ A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare."

Do you agree that the above is a primary purpose of the educational system? Do you see even a hint of indoctrination in the idea of such practice?

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

if my school's job was to indoctrinate me into a good loyal citizen, they failed miserably.

i've said this before but most school systems can't find their ass with both hands, much less brainwash kids into doing jack shit, unless its brainwashing them into sleeping. most of my teachers were mostly liberal, and I lived in the most conservative hick state in the union.


in college my western civ teacher had tenure, so he didnt even bother to teach the class. instead he taught out of a book he wrote preaching about the evils of the military industrial complex and pollution. i liked the guy. Some of you freaks might like college if you actually checked it out. Of course, you might also find those with -'GASP'- differing opinions!

school (from home or or not) is what you make of it. use it to learn what you need.

but keep on preachin about them poor brainwashed kids and their fancy textbook learnin'!

angelica

MrSmith wrote:

i've said this before but most school systems can't find their ass with both hands, much less brainwash kids into doing jack shit.

Really?

For most people the school system was able to indoctrinate them, at the tender age of 6 years old when they are full of life and energy and with a natural curiosity to explore the world around them, to sit in one spot for approximately 6 hours per day, listening to one adult and what that adult has to say about "reality". The same school system was quite successful in indoctrinating most with the idea that it's not only natural to sit in basically this one spot ongoing hours per day, going against their base nature, following man-made instruction, but most adults, when they were 6 years old, were also indoctrinated with the idea that to step outside of what was expected of them, they would be labelled as "bad" or wrong, somehow, and socially shamed and punished.

Most adults I know have been so indoctrinated by the school system that they don't even question why they've been trained for years and years to access basically 1/4 of their brain--being the left neo-cortex which deals with basic academic subjects, at the expense of whole-brain functioning. As a matter of fact, many adults have no idea that this has even happened, because the process has been totally unconscious for them. This means it happened while their attention was focused elsewhere...

And further, these same adults actually look down on more whole-brained or alternative awarenesses, believing theirs to be the superior way, due to lack of understanding or knowledge on the subject.

Then, of the children -the 6 year olds and up - who were less willing to sit still, and accept the "rules" of the classroom, of sitting still and focusing on a very small segment of the world around them, they were often convinced, alongside their parents and the other children who observed them, that they were "disordered", by labels such as ADD or ADHD, among other "learning disabilities".