Criminalizing Home Schoolers

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080308/us_time/criminalizinghomeschoolers

Parents of the approximately 200,000 home-schooled children in California are reeling from the possibility that they may have to shutter their classrooms - and go back to school themselves - if they want to continue teaching their own kids. On Feb. 28, Judge H. Walter Croskey of the Second District Court of Appeals in Los Angeles ruled that children ages six to 18 may be taught only by credentialed teachers in public or private schools - or at home by Mom and Dad, but only if they have a teaching degree. Citing state law that goes back to the early 1950s, Croskey declared that "California courts have held that under provisions in the Education Code, parents do not have a constitutional right to home school their children." Furthermore, the judge wrote, if instructors teach without credentials they will be subject to criminal action.

DriftingByTheStorm

MrSmith wrote:

parents do not have a constitutional right to home school their children." Furthermore, the judge wrote, if instructors teach without credentials they will be subject to criminal action.

Now THAT is some fucking MAJOR bullshit.

I dunno if this idiot judge is talking about the California constitution or what, but according to the US Constitution, i'm pretty sure the 9th and 10th Amendments would tell this judge to go fuck himself.

In other words, i'm pretty damn sure this would be a right retained by the citizens.

Considering the constitution gives the government NO right to govern childhood education, it makes this argument look even more like a crock of shit.

:mad:

blackredyellow

That is some bullshit...

I have my own reservations about homeschooling (especially for grades 6 and above), but criminalizing it? C'mon...

Commy

they are trying to force all kids to go through the indoctrination programs we all go through to become AMericans.

angelica

We must abide by social conventions....lest we be attuned with reality.

Anon

Homeschool freedom works. Homeschoolers have earned the right to be left alone.
The results speak for themselves.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

Abookamongstthemany

Oh that pisses me off!

Kel Varnsen

I think any kind of criminal prosecution is a bit much, but I think the idea that you have to have some training to be able to teach your kids is pretty reasonable, especially if they are expecting a real high school diploma. Teach your kids if you want without training but don’t expect the state to give them their high school diploma. Then again I think home school is a strange choice in general.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

i'm not a big fan of home schooling either, but i think parents should have that right. The kids do have to pass certain tests to make sure they are still learning at least as much as regular schoolers, so i dont think teaching degrees are that nessecary.

i will say that most home schoolers I've met after high school are socially retarded.

SilverSeed

MrSmith wrote:

i will say that most home schoolers I've met after high school are socially retarded.

Hilarious... I agree though.

I agree with the judge in that if a parent is going to turn their child into a "social retard" they should at least have some sort of training in teaching.

Kel Varnsen

SilverSeed wrote:

Hilarious... I agree though.

I agree with the judge in that if a parent is going to turn their child into a "social retard" they should at least have some sort of training in teaching.

Or at least be able to prove that they know what they are talking about when they are teaching their kids. I mean I know a lot of people who speak and write really badly (myself included sometime) and I can only imagine how bad it would be if those people are teaching their kids grammer.

Not to mention even the dumbest parent could probably teach their child up to what grade 5 and still have their kid meet minimum standards. But then after that what happens when you were taught by someone not very smart who was only able to teach you the bare minimum and not able to go any further than that even if you wanted to excel? Teaching higher levels at home is going to be a problem, and it will be more of a problem if you are sent to a real school since you only learned the minimum to get by.

blackredyellow

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Or at least be able to prove that they know what they are talking about when they are teaching their kids. I mean I know a lot of people who speak and write really badly (myself included sometime) and I can only imagine how bad it would be if those people are teaching their kids grammer.

Not to mention even the dumbest parent could probably teach their child up to what grade 5 and still have their kid meet minimum standards. But then after that what happens when you were taught by someone not very smart who was only able to teach you the bare minimum and not able to go any further than that even if you wanted to excel? Teaching higher levels at home is going to be a problem, and it will be more of a problem if you are sent to a real school since you only learned the minimum to get by.

I agree... how many parents would be able to effectively teach their kids Trigonomitry, Calculus, Physics, etc.?

I understand K-6 where you are learning more basic math, reading comprehension/grammar, etc., Most somewhat intelligent parents could pull that off if they put effort into it.

1970RR

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Or at least be able to prove that they know what they are talking about when they are teaching their kids. I mean I know a lot of people who speak and write really badly (myself included sometime) and I can only imagine how bad it would be if those people are teaching their kids grammer.

Not to mention even the dumbest parent could probably teach their child up to what grade 5 and still have their kid meet minimum standards. But then after that what happens when you were taught by someone not very smart who was only able to teach you the bare minimum and not able to go any further than that even if you wanted to excel? Teaching higher levels at home is going to be a problem, and it will be more of a problem if you are sent to a real school since you only learned the minimum to get by.

We must also be sure parents are properly trained to teach, per the judges own ruling:

“ A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare."

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/B192878.PDF

Hard to figure why anyone would want to homeschool, especially when the only end up as unloyal, unpatriotic "social retards".

GreenTeaDisease

blackredyellow wrote:

I agree... how many parents would be able to effectively teach their kids Trigonomitry, Calculus, Physics, etc.?

I understand K-6 where you are learning more basic math, reading comprehension/grammar, etc., Most somewhat intelligent parents could pull that off if they put effort into it.

I agree as well. and when it comes to the younger kids learning the "basic" stuff, that's all well and good, but it takes more than knowing the material- elementary school teachers are required to be trained in education because you need to know the correct way to teach the kids the material at young ages. I think if you want to "home school" your kids fine (though I have no idea why anyone would want to) but you should live up to the same standards as a teacher.

Kel Varnsen

GreenTeaDisease wrote:

I agree as well. and when it comes to the younger kids learning the "basic" stuff, that's all well and good, but it takes more than knowing the material- elementary school teachers are required to be trained in education because you need to know the correct way to teach the kids the material at young ages. I think if you want to "home school" your kids fine (though I have no idea why anyone would want to) but you should live up to the same standards as a teacher.

That is sort of what I was trying to get at with the second part of my last post. For sure most parents understand the basic stuff that you learn up to grade 6 and could probably get their kids to understand what they are talking about. So while yes any parent could probably teach their kid addition, but in those early years you are also teaching those kids how to learn, and building a foundation that everything else learned is built on. Any parent can get their kid to memorize 2+1=3 but the important thing is to I guess train their brain to absorb that knowledge, so that it is more than just memory, so that years down the road when someone teaches them the quadric formula they are able to absorb it and understand what it means.

Plus what happens if you have no teaching training and your kid is super smart and your kid wants to know more than what is in the home school education package you are using. Would an average parent know how to find the answer that the kid is looking for?

cornnifer

Criminalization goes pretty far, and i don't think it will happen. That being said, i don't see expecting parents to have some kind of credentials before assuming the major responsibility for their child's education is that absurd. My biggest problem with homeschooling (and i'm not necessarily against it) is that many homeschool parents i have known have absolutely no business teaching children, even if its their own children. They have the right to, i won't disagree with that, but i will also add to it that they have the RESPONSIBILITY to do what is in the best interest of the child. Homeschooling your child, when you have no real credentials to do so is just irresponsible. Trust me i have seen some pretty sad cases (i have also seen cases where it has worked out for the child just fine academically). i will also say that i have to agree with those who have implied that most (again, not all) homeschool children tend to be socially inept. This is the another very potential problem i tend to take issue with.

1970RR

cornnifer wrote:

Criminalization goes pretty far, and i don't think it will happen. That being said, i don't see expecting parents to have some kind of credentials before assuming the major responsibility for their child's education is that absurd. My biggest problem with homeschooling (and i'm not necessarily against it) is that many homeschool parents i have known have absolutely no business teaching children, even if its their own children. They have the right to, i won't disagree with that, but i will also add to it that they have the RESPONSIBILITY to do what is in the best interest of the child. Homeschooling your child, when you have no real credentials to do so is just irresponsible. Trust me i have seen some pretty sad cases (i have also seen cases where it has worked out for the child just fine academically). i will also say that i have to agree with those who have implied that most (again, not all) homeschool children tend to be socially inept. This is the another very potential problem i tend to take issue with.

Do you know of any actual studies regarding the social skills of home schooled children, other than the anecdotal sightings of "social retards"?

GreenTeaDisease

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Plus what happens if you have no teaching training and your kid is super smart and your kid wants to know more than what is in the home school education package you are using. Would an average parent know how to find the answer that the kid is looking for?

well, most schools couldn't handle that either (which is why I think a lot of people home school maybe), but I get what you are saying. a lot of home schooling, as far as I know, is basically staying one lesson ahead of the kid.

cornnifer

1970RR wrote:

Do you know of any actual studies regarding the social skills of home schooled children, other than the anecdotal sightings of "social retards"?

First of all "social retards" is not a term i used. Its a term someone else used. Please refrain from quoting me and using someone else's words to reference it. Now, no, i can't cite any hard studies (data would be somewhat hard to quantify). i have seen enough examples of social struggles for homeschool children to base my opinion on. Do you know of any actual studies that refute my opinion? If so, i'm open to them.

Kel Varnsen

GreenTeaDisease wrote:

well, most schools couldn't handle that either (which is why I think a lot of people home school maybe), but I get what you are saying. a lot of home schooling, as far as I know, is basically staying one lesson ahead of the kid.

And that is part of the problem, if you are only staying one lesson ahead of the kid what happens when the kid asks a question that is 3 lessons advanced or worse a whole grade advanced and the parent hasn't purchased the next grade study materials. At least in a school if you are in grade 4 and ask your teacher a grade 5 English question he probably knows enough that he can answer you. Personally I think a parent home schooling a kid is doing that kid a huge disservice.

The other problem I have read is that a lot of parents home school their kids because the school district is teaching things that go against their beliefs (ie evolution).

angelica

1970RR wrote:

“ A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare."

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/B192878.PDF

:eek:

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Or at least be able to prove that they know what they are talking about when they are teaching their kids.

Prove to whom? And why?

We don't have to prove we are one of the 2% of the population who is considered to be psychologically healthy and flourishing in order to raise our children....

We're so caught up in man-made social structures and institutions, and we've lost touch with the reality that is within and surrounds us in each moment.

While many are taught allegiance to authority, social conventions, etc. they are taught to lose touch with their inner truth and attunement to nature and reality to the degree that they remain psychologically distorted/fragmented. This kind of fragmentation is a large part of what has the vast majority being out of touch with reality, and using any number of imbalances in order to deal. Unlike those who become self-actualized, who are in the 2% minority of the psychologically healthy, and who see through the afore-mentioned social conventions to what is really there.

I'm all for having education fit within the family system as a whole, within reality, rather than having the family system fit within "education" as is commonly expected in our western world.

http://www.performance-unlimited.com/samain.htm

cornnifer wrote:

...many homeschool parents i have known have absolutely no business teaching children...

Imo, the same goes for various teachers who have personally taught my own children in the public system.