A book you have to read - please read

dangerboy

Wookiee_Blaylock wrote:

Yes. You're right... living in total fear DOES in fact present these dillemas. Who knows, someone on this forum could be a terrorist! Pff, "an enemy". WHO is the enemy you're referring to? Apparently it's the whole country (non-whites?) of Iraq.

Maybe my points are all flimsy, maybe they're not. All I know is I'm both tired and frustrated. But thanks for listening anyway.

don't make me out to be some kind of racist (non-whites? wtf does that have to do with it?). the enemy are people who have vowed and declared that they want to kill americans just for being americans. terrorists. al qaeda, hamas, hezbollah, and their ilk.

Wookiee_Blaylock

dangerboy wrote:

don't make me out to be some kind of racist (non-whites? wtf does that have to do with it?). the enemy are people who have vowed and declared that they want to kill americans just for being americans. terrorists. al qaeda, hamas, hezbollah, and their ilk.

I know, I know. I was being cynical actually... probably overly. I didn't mean to imply that you are, I'm sure you're not. It's just that to me, the statement made was so rediculous that you might as well be.

Yes, WE ALL KNOW THAT TERRORISM IS BAD. But if you read the story, you would know that the point being made is here is that NOT EVERY PERSON NATIVE TO IRAQ IS A TERRORIST. Yet, the country pretty much is fair game for crap like this to happen, where wholly innocent people are suffering because of ignorance. Yes, kind of like sept. 11... but again, more American troops alone (aside from the local population losses, which are much higher).. have died in this conflict than died in events of 9/11 - something which had nothing to do with Iraq.

sunless

You know, I didn't want to start a debate by posting this, although debate is healthy. I just wanted people to read for themselves. I don't think we can solve all of the world problems in this forum, but I can imagine there are a lot of people out in the real world that live in a bubble and don't know what is going on ouside of that bubble.

dontfalldown

talk about left wing propaganda....you can't honestly think that all the soldiers are doing over there is harrassing Iraqi's....you gotta be kidding.....I think we should withdraw from the middle east, but not because of one person's embellishment of troop terror (a person who obviously never should have signed up for the military in the first place).

I wouldn't read the rest of the book after reading this passage..let alone buy it....that guy doesn't deserve to make a dime off this story.

Wookiee_Blaylock

dontfalldown wrote:

talk about left wing propaganda....you can't honestly think that all the soldiers are doing over there is harrassing Iraqi's....you gotta be kidding.....I think we should withdraw from the middle east, but not because of one person's embellishment of troop terror (a person who obviously never should have signed up for the military in the first place).

I wouldn't read the rest of the book after reading this passage..let alone buy it....that guy doesn't deserve to make a dime off this story.

Oh, I agree... and if he did make a living off of that, then he'd really be a soulless sellout in my opinion.

You're right, it's not "all", but that doesn't mean that this one lone person's viewpoint should be completely written off either.

dangerboy

Wookiee_Blaylock wrote:

I know, I know. I was being cynical actually... probably overly. I didn't mean to imply that you are, I'm sure you're not. It's just that to me, the statement made was so rediculous that you might as well be.

Yes, WE ALL KNOW THAT TERRORISM IS BAD. But if you read the story, you would know that the point being made is here is that NOT EVERY PERSON NATIVE TO IRAQ IS A TERRORIST. Yet, the country pretty much is fair game for crap like this to happen, where wholly innocent people are suffering because of ignorance. Yes, kind of like sept. 11... but again, more American troops alone (aside from the local population losses, which are much higher).. have died in this conflict than died in events of 9/11 - something which had nothing to do with Iraq.

you asked what threat a little girl might pose in iraq. the terrorists have used women and children to carry out their bombings. it is difficult to know which women and children are being used by terrorists, and which ones are just walking by, because they look and act the same. it's like saying you could tell the difference between someone from illinois and someone from indiana in a split second from a hundred yards maybe in a cloud of dust and heat or maybe in the middle of the night.

A Faceless Man

Sooooo what does this have to do with Pearl Jam?

PaperPlates

sunless wrote:

Probably should be, but I hope they don't move it. More people will read it in here. However, maybe the wrong people. I live just outside a military base here in Canada, and I appreciate the work that these people do. However, if I was hired to do a job, and then found out that my job was not to fight a war, like I was told, but to terrorize innocent people, I would want the fuck out. Having a handful of kids himself, he couldn't justify what they were doing to the kids in Iraq. There is one story in the book about guarding a hospital. A 10 year-old girl would come to the gates every day and ask for food. They weren't allowed to talk to the 'enemy' so he would give her his rations and make her go away. One day, one of the guards on the roof blew her head off while she was crossing the street. Tell me, Hatty, what kind of threat would she pose?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/02/12/child.soldiers/index.html

Strangest Tribe

I live in a small midwest town population of about 17000. I'm 42 years old and have been around the nation several times. Let me say with much respect to those serving in the military ...we sometimes take you for granted.

Around here "weekend warriors" are teachers, students, farmers, insurance salesmen, police officers and anyone making an average income that can take off one weekend a month to supplement their income. Poor people trying to make it.

Nationally we are known for our Tornadoes and Floods.
So, for years and years, our local weekend warriors have been called to assist those struck by natural disasters. They've delivered food & supplies to those communities that lost their homes to storms and high winds. They stood guard over our neighborhoods to stop looters and sandbagged the levees during the floods of the mid 90's to protect our communities.

The National Guard has never been (in our eyes at least) a military extension. In fact, the recruiters always told the enlistees that, unless we were invaded... the military function of the National Guard was a primarily domestic function.

That all changed didn't it? I have many friends that went to Iraq... only to return, somewhat changed... not for the better... the distant stares more so than the smiling eyes we used to know. Many have had to assume a Dr's care and the medication to follow.

So to read this thread and see some people so blind to the injustice our own government has done to our own soldiers. You know ...so many lies and misleads....

I really can't blame ANY of them for defecting or deserting.

sunless

Best perspective yet. Thanks for sharing. Too bad these threads fade away in AMT.

Strangest Tribe wrote:

I live in a small midwest town population of about 17000. I'm 42 years old and have been around the nation several times. Let me say with much respect to those serving in the military ...we sometimes take you for granted.

Around here "weekend warriors" are teachers, students, farmers, insurance salesmen, police officers and anyone making an average income that can take off one weekend a month to supplement their income. Poor people trying to make it.

Nationally we are known for our Tornadoes and Floods.
So, for years and years, our local weekend warriors have been called to assist those struck by natural disasters. They've delivered food & supplies to those communities that lost their homes to storms and high winds. They stood guard over our neighborhoods to stop looters and sandbagged the levees during the floods of the mid 90's to protect our communities.

The National Guard has never been (in our eyes at least) a military extension. In fact, the recruiters always told the enlistees that, unless we were invaded... the military function of the National Guard was a primarily domestic function.

That all changed didn't it? I have many friends that went to Iraq... only to return, somewhat changed... not for the better... the distant stares more so than the smiling eyes we used to know. Many have had to assume a Dr's care and the medication to follow.

So to read this thread and see some people so blind to the injustice our own government has done to our own soldiers. You know ...so many lies and misleads....

I really can't blame ANY of them for defecting or deserting.

miller8966

Why does everyone think people join the military because they need money?

Sometimes people just want to blow shit up.

sunless

miller8966 wrote:

Why does everyone think people join the military because they need money?

Sometimes people just want to blow shit up.

A good perspective, too. I just sold a truck to the base commander here. Maybe I should ask him what his perspective is? He's promised to take me on a tour of the base when they start their training in the spring.

Ahnimus

HatTrick wrote:

Oath of enlistment:

"I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States{{, the governor of the state of _______ (for National Guard enlistees)}} and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

How can one "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." and also "obey the orders of the President of the United States"? Though I guess putting "So help me God" in there kind of nullifies it all for an Atheist. Is this like the Boy Scouts where you can't join if you're an Atheist?

sapperskunk

miller8966 wrote:

Why does everyone think people join the military because they need money?

Sometimes people just want to blow shit up.

In the US Army, Sappers are combat engineers who advance with the front-line infantry, and they have fought in every war in American history. The designation is earned as an additional proficiency.

To be a sapper, a Soldier must complete the Sapper Leader Course which is operated by the U.S. Engineer Officer Basic Course at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. The Sapper Leader Course is a 28-day course designed to train joint-service leaders in small unit tactics, leadership skills, and tactics required to perform as part of a combined arms team. The course is open to enlisted Soldiers in the grades of E-4 (in the Army, specialist) and above, cadets, and officers O-3 (Army, captain) and below. Students can come from any combat or combat support branch of the service, but priority is given to engineering, cavalry, and infantry soldiers. [1]. The course is in two Phases.

Phase I lasts 14 days and covers general subjects including medical, navigation, demolitions, air and water operations, mountaineering, and land mines and weapons used by enemy forces. Phase II is the remaining 14 days. It covers basic patrolling techniques and battle drills that emphasize leadership. The subjects include urban operations, breaching, patrol organization and movement, and reconnaissance, raid and ambush tactics. It concludes with a three-day situation training exercise, and five-day field training exercise. These missions are a 60/40 mix of engineer and infantry missions.

Leadership is emphasized throughout the SLC. During the course leader roles are rotated regularly and each student is evaluated at least twice on leadership. The results of the Sapper Leader Course are soldiers who are hardened combat engineers who are qualified to fight and lead on today’s battlefields


Yeah blowing shit up is fun, but like anything, repetition turns it into another job.

sapperskunk

sunless wrote:

I read a lot, and every once in a while I come across something that changes my perspective in life. If you haven't heard of Joshua Key, he was a soldier in Iraq that deserted to Canada during his two week vacation. He recently did an interview for MacLean's magazine, and they included an excerpt from his book. After reading this, I ran out and bought the book. If I was American and had supported the war, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night after reading it. Now that I'm done reading it, I keep it on my nightstand so every night before I go to bed, I'm reminded how fortunate I am not to live in a country that has been invaded. Terrible things are being done with your tax dollars. Please, read the article, and I hope you are motivated to make a difference.

http://www.macleans.ca/world/global/article.jsp?content=20070205_140356_140356

Ya know, I can write a really dark sordid tale on the sandwich I consumed for lunch today. If I put enough time into it, embellished the truth a bit and set the story in a dark creepy place (like my studio apartment) then I too could probably impress some people.

Context my friends, context. I'm not saying this guy didn't see this stuff, it's his descriptions and analysis that seduce people.

You could get the same story from one of his buddies who was there, in a completely different manner.

sunless

sapperskunk wrote:

Ya know, I can write a really dark sordid tale on the sandwich I consumed for lunch today. If I put enough time into it, embellished the truth a bit and set the story in a dark creepy place (like my studio apartment) then I too could probably impress some people.

Context my friends, context. I'm not saying this guy didn't see this stuff, it's his descriptions and analysis that seduce people.

You could get the same story from one of his buddies who was there, in a completely different manner.

You can't really dress up a turd.

sapperskunk

sunless wrote:

You can't really dress up a turd.

Are you implying I ate a piece of shit for lunch?

Cause today it was turkey.

Commy

" A sick realization lodged like a cancer in my gut. It grew and festered, and troubled me more with every passing day. We, the Americans, had become the terrorists in Iraq."

sapperskunk

Commy wrote:

" A sick realization lodged like a cancer in my gut. It grew and festered, and troubled me more with every passing day. We, the Americans, had become the terrorists in Iraq."

:rolleyes:

Dustin51

A Faceless Man wrote:

Sooooo what does this have to do with Pearl Jam?

Eddie was drafted. Havent you heard man?