CIA - bigger criminals than the nazis.

tara

would it be less horrific if it were only 4 million? (yeah, i'm just stirring up shit now, and just so noone gets offended, i come from a family that survived aushwitz, my point is that regardless of how many were killed, it was beyond inhumane). i think that the point is that the nazis directly took it upon themselves to slaughter an entire race of people, and they wanted to do this in the most cost effective, and time efficient manner, leading to uspeakable methods of murder. whereas the cia didn't actually do the trigger pulling. does that make a difference? i'm not sure,maybe a bit though; the ppl that work at the cia aren't cold blooded killers, many probably have the best intensions to resolve conflicts (is my naivete showing through?), it's a few of the head honchos that are manipulative bastards, aren't all politicians? whereas the nazis were ALL cold blooded killers, and the 6-10 million doesn't even touch upon the pow's, and allied troups they killed

sponger

The Nazi army had literally millions of soldiers in it. What are the odds that every single soldier was a cold blooded killer? I'd say the odds are pretty slim. To be a nazi soldier, all you needed was to be white and able-bodied. To say that all nazis were cold blooded killers is to say that white and able-bodied people are cold blooded killers.

Point in fact is that after WWII, these cold blooded killers blended back into normal society. Wouldn't a cold blooded killer be inclined to satisfy that instinctive desire to kill and maim regardless of whether or not a war is on?

So, it's not a matter of who is or isn't a cold blooded killer. It's a matter of what the state wants. The nazi state wanted its troops to be ruthless killers of innocent people, and so that's what they became.

If Bush somehow wrestled away our right to free speech and freedom of the press, and then ordered the extermination of, say, liberals, then I'm sure he would have no problem doing so. Our military would go door to door and begin executing anyone who believes in global warming.

IndianSummer

dayan wrote:

Ok, forgive my ignorance, but when has the CIA ever created an infrastructure that forced people from their homes, robbed them of all their possessions, and transported them to death camps their to be murdered in their millions. The answer is never. Again the CIA has done terrible things. I don't deny that. But the comparison to the Nazis is ridiculous. Saying that the CIA is responsible for the Cambodian genocide is to free the Khmer Rouge of all responsibility. If the CIA weren't the ones who actually were doing the killing then their is no comparison to be made. That is not to say that they did not act badly, but they aren't genocidal murderers. As for me not caring about non-Jewish blood being spilled I'll say this. I care more about the lives of Jews. That's true. But I don't think there is anything strange or wrong with that. As a Jew who has grown up with a distinct awareness that my people were almost wiped off the face of the earth so recently that it is still within living memory I think I have good reason to be somewhat provincial. Add to that the fact that I look around the world and see every day more outright anti-semitism, or even worse, anti-semites who shield themselves in the cloak of anti-zionism, saying they are only expressing a political opposition to Israel when really they just hate Jews, and I get freaked the fuck out. So yeah, I care more about my own cause no one else does. That said, I value every life because I believe all life is sacred, and it's not caring that leads to genocide. That's another lesson I've learned.

THE CIA is a covert operations body. unlike nazis.

the cia do their bastardy in a subtle manner and in secret, under various guises.

IndianSummer

CorporateWhore wrote:

One word for CIA-haters:

Coldwar.

Ha, I guess that's two words but I made it into one.

The CIA was a factor in the USSR's demise. If you hate the CIA, I can only wonder how much more you hated the USSR? Or did you like it? HeH!

as they pointed out in the video, the cia took on russians - by killing innocents in asia, africa and latin america.

tara

sponger wrote:

So, it's not a matter of who is or isn't a cold blooded killer. It's a matter of what the state wants. The nazi state wanted its troops to be ruthless killers of innocent people, and so that's what they became.

If Bush somehow wrestled away our right to free speech and freedom of the press, and then ordered the extermination of, say, liberals, then I'm sure he would have no problem doing so. Our military would go door to door and begin executing anyone who believes in global warming.

i should hope not, it's not a matter of what the state wants, it's a matter of whether the ppl have any sense to them. i seriously doubt that an american would turn on their neighbour, that they'd lived beside for decades, burn their babies alive, steal anything they could find, rape and beat everyone and then put them on a train to be exterminated, unless of course they chose to kill them immediately. could you do that? i hope not. and i don't think that the american military would do that. i have no idea how it came to pass in germany, but it did. and i still can't believe that it cold happen here, i don't want to believe that i know anyone with that much hate and blindness to them

dayan

IndianSummer wrote:

THE CIA is a covert operations body. unlike nazis.

the cia do their bastardy in a subtle manner and in secret, under various guises.

And this is a response to my objection how? and bastardy is not a word.

sponger

tara wrote:

i should hope not, it's not a matter of what the state wants, it's a matter of whether the ppl have any sense to them. i seriously doubt that an american would turn on their neighbour, that they'd lived beside for decades, burn their babies alive, steal anything they could find, rape and beat everyone and then put them on a train to be exterminated, unless of course they chose to kill them immediately. could you do that? i hope not. and i don't think that the american military would do that. i have no idea how it came to pass in germany, but it did. and i still can't believe that it cold happen here, i don't want to believe that i know anyone with that much hate and blindness to them

To imagine it, all you have to do is remember how a majority of americans in 2003 believed that Saddam had something to do with 9/11. That's how easy it was for the Bush Administration to brainwash an entire nation. Is that not hatred and blindness?

Germany was living in fear from its own poverty-stricken situation just as Americans were living in fear from terrorist attacks. Hitler stepped in and alleviated that fear by blaming the jews.

But, he didn't just say, "Let's exterminate the jews." He made it so that things gradually led up to that point as the state gained more and more control.

By the time the "final solution" was being implemented, the state had complete control over the populace. People were living in fear.

All Bush has to do to gain that kind of control is take away our free speech, our freedom of the press, and then brainwash the american population into thinking that global warming is a liberal conspiracy to cripple our economy so that the upper-class conservatives with their majority control of US corporations could be rendered powerless.

Now imagine being a soldier in the US army during this time. You have family that depends on you. You are one day given an order to go into a house to kidnap a liberal family so it can be relocated to a camp. If you do not follow this order, the very same thing could easily happen to you and your family. Chances are, you would carry out this order without even hesitating.

And this was heavily supported by the Milgram experiments. A group of randomly selected people willingly committed what they believed was an act of deadly electrocution on an "unwilling" individual simply because they were being ordered to do so by the test administrator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

We lead moral lifestyles because we have that luxury. Given the right conditions, an overwhelming majority of us would in fact turn our neighbors over to the gestapo.

The key to understanding why is understanding that Germans are just like anybody else. To think that they are inherently "evil" is to be blind and hateful.

dayan

you are just a wee bit nuts man. Bush might be many things (many of them bad) but he isn't the next hitler. he's not looking to strip us of our basic rights and liberties.

sponger

dayan wrote:

you are just a wee bit nuts man. Bush might be many things (many of them bad) but he isn't the next hitler. he's not looking to strip us of our basic rights and liberties.

I wasn't saying that he is. I'm saying that the US could easily be the next Nazi Germany if the right conditions existed. One of those conditions would be Bush being a psychotic mass murderer.

All I'm saying is that the nazis weren't a massive organization of evil people. It was just matter of the state having more control than it should.

dayan

fair enough.

searchlightsoul

dayan wrote:

Ok, forgive my ignorance, but when has the CIA ever created an infrastructure that forced people from their homes, robbed them of all their possessions, and transported them to death camps their to be murdered in their millions. The answer is never. Again the CIA has done terrible things. I don't deny that. But the comparison to the Nazis is ridiculous. Saying that the CIA is responsible for the Cambodian genocide is to free the Khmer Rouge of all responsibility. If the CIA weren't the ones who actually were doing the killing then their is no comparison to be made.

Thanks for manipulating my post. I explicitaly stated that the CIA involvemnet does not extricate the Khmer Rouge From responsibility at all.

I also fail to see how no similarity exists with your example and bombing peoples homes, destroying their possessions and killing them as the American military did under CIA guidance during Vietnam. Many of those people in Cambodia did end up in death camps so the comparison can be made.
Indirect or not those people still died and America had a massive role in it.

IndianSummer

dayan wrote:

And this is a response to my objection how? and bastardy is not a word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bastardy

polaris

its not just cambodia ... its all over the fucking world ... i know its hard for people to stomach a comparison to the nazi's ... but this comparison is secondary to the fact that you have a state-sponsored organization that has been the root cause of so much innocent deaths all over the world ...

arguing over whether they are like nazis takes away from the fact that this organization still exists and still funds covert operations in the name of US enterprise ... this is what the western world is all about now ...

dayan

IndianSummer wrote:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bastardy

hmm. my bad. learn a new thing every day.

El_Kabong

searchlightsoul wrote:

The bombing of Cambodia ordered by Henry Kissinger killed 800,000 people even though America were not formerly at war with them. The CIA continued to fund the puppet regime against the Communits Khmer Rouge. When things got too hot they bailed and the resultant genocide killed 2 million Cambodians. Whilst the actions of the Khmer Rouge can not be blamed squarely on the CIA there would have been no civil war and no need to 'purge' the civilian population had the CIA not been involved.

Add to that Kissinger one the Nobel Peace prize ending the war.WTF

let's not forget the death squads we funded, armed and trained in el salvador or teh contras we did the same for that killed civilians in nicaragua <or how we mined their harbors and bombed them from being one of the richest nations in the region to one of the poorest in the world>

El_Kabong

CorporateWhore wrote:

One word for CIA-haters:

Coldwar.

Ha, I guess that's two words but I made it into one.

The CIA was a factor in the USSR's demise. If you hate the CIA, I can only wonder how much more you hated the USSR? Or did you like it? HeH!

ya think so?

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArtTextonly.aspx?refid=761568583&print=11

G. The CIA Under President Reagan
President Reagan made good on his promise to rebuild the CIA and secured a major expansion in the budget and personnel of the agency. (The CIA budget was a secret until 1997, when it was officially revealed to be $26.6 billion. Rough estimates suggest that the agency’s budget was about $20 billion in 1981, and that it reached a Cold War high of about $36 billion at the end of the 1980s.) Reagan named CIA veteran William Casey as the agency’s director, and included him in the Cabinet where he became a key presidential adviser. Reagan relied heavily on Casey and the CIA to lead his campaign to end what he called the “evil empire” of Soviet Communism. At Reagan’s direction, the CIA created reports that exaggerated the economic and military threat presented by the Soviet Union. The distorted estimates helped Reagan persuade Congress to approve massive funding for the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI)—a system of space-based defenses against nuclear attack. The Soviet economy, already hobbled by chronic problems, was too weak to support a Soviet military effort to match SDI.

---

wow...fixing intelligence to get a higher defense budget...why does this sound familiar?????

CorporateWhore

El_Kabong wrote:

ya think so?

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArtTextonly.aspx?refid=761568583&print=11

G. The CIA Under President Reagan
President Reagan made good on his promise to rebuild the CIA and secured a major expansion in the budget and personnel of the agency. (The CIA budget was a secret until 1997, when it was officially revealed to be $26.6 billion. Rough estimates suggest that the agency’s budget was about $20 billion in 1981, and that it reached a Cold War high of about $36 billion at the end of the 1980s.) Reagan named CIA veteran William Casey as the agency’s director, and included him in the Cabinet where he became a key presidential adviser. Reagan relied heavily on Casey and the CIA to lead his campaign to end what he called the “evil empire” of Soviet Communism. At Reagan’s direction, the CIA created reports that exaggerated the economic and military threat presented by the Soviet Union. The distorted estimates helped Reagan persuade Congress to approve massive funding for the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI)—a system of space-based defenses against nuclear attack. The Soviet economy, already hobbled by chronic problems, was too weak to support a Soviet military effort to match SDI.

---

wow...fixing intelligence to get a higher defense budget...why does this sound familiar?????

Lincoln suspended habeus corpus and won the civil war. God Bless him for that. I bet you would've taken him to task for that. Doesn't matter now that you have a united nation to live in, though.

Some of the best presidents bended the rules. I stand by Reagan's actions completely. Call me a follower, but I'm glad the USSR is dead. Hopefully you are too. Beating the communists was the most important struggle of our time and for those that lambaste Reagan for doing it, I can't understand whose side you're on. Aren't you glad that the USSR is gone?

scot88

Commy wrote:

the CIA's crimes are far worse than the Nazis, just more subtle. The damage they have caused around the world is incalculable. They set up tyrants all over the world..that afffects millions of lives...they fund terrorist organizations, some off the most brutal the world has seen...they fund warlords...their policies have affected many lives during and since the cold war.

they may, as you claim, have affected billions of lives (not all of them in a bad way), but did they do so purposefully? there is no doubt that some fucked up things have happened as a result of the CIA's doings, but it is not like they directly funded what was to becom Al-Quaeda with the intent that they would become an international terrorist organization. whereas the nazis executed millions of jews without remorse. period. to compare the two is unforgiveable. sure the CIA members have different views than you, but to compare them to nazis? disgusting.

thank the CIA that you aren't speaking russian in a gulag right now.

scot88

El_Kabong wrote:

ya think so?

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArtTextonly.aspx?refid=761568583&print=11

G. The CIA Under President Reagan
President Reagan made good on his promise to rebuild the CIA and secured a major expansion in the budget and personnel of the agency. (The CIA budget was a secret until 1997, when it was officially revealed to be $26.6 billion. Rough estimates suggest that the agency’s budget was about $20 billion in 1981, and that it reached a Cold War high of about $36 billion at the end of the 1980s.) Reagan named CIA veteran William Casey as the agency’s director, and included him in the Cabinet where he became a key presidential adviser. Reagan relied heavily on Casey and the CIA to lead his campaign to end what he called the “evil empire” of Soviet Communism. At Reagan’s direction, the CIA created reports that exaggerated the economic and military threat presented by the Soviet Union. The distorted estimates helped Reagan persuade Congress to approve massive funding for the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI)—a system of space-based defenses against nuclear attack. The Soviet economy, already hobbled by chronic problems, was too weak to support a Soviet military effort to match SDI.

---

wow...fixing intelligence to get a higher defense budget...why does this sound familiar?????

last time i checked, the ussr was around way before regan ever became president. the ussr was, as you said, crumbling from the inside. however, the cold war was a far more immenent threat during the 50's and 60's.

MrBrian

scot88 wrote:

they may, as you claim, have affected billions of lives (not all of them in a bad way), but did they do so purposefully? .

what like backing corrupt leaders? over throwing elected ones? Yes these things are done on purpose? But maybe they are stupid and don't think that these things will have negative effects?

The CIA is the most dangerous organization on the planet.
-

Even this entire issue with Iran is caused by the CIA, 1953 overthrowing Mohammad Mossadegh.

The CIA is to blame for most of the major problems in the world.