did ya know al qaeda was created while he was on the cia payroll? so, in essence, our tax dollars helped fund and create al qaeda...mission accomplished, alright
weren't we selling iran thousands of missiles at the same time?
and provided saddam protection and support while he gassed his own ppl and iranians....mission accomplished!
i'm not saying I am happy about the mission and their accomplishments. just trying to give soul a history lesson
i'm not saying I am happy about the mission and their accomplishments. just trying to give soul a history lesson
so mistakes were made? cos on the 1st page you asked 'what mistakes did we make?'
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
mistakes? in regards to the goals at the time? no.
helping fund the creation of al qaeda is not seen as a mistake???? really? so, you think al qaeda is innocent?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
it was not a mistake in regards to the goals at the time. I thought I already said that?
yes, but you still are failing to make sense....cosmo, i believe, said something [roughly] about learning from our mistakes and not repeatimg them...you replied 'what mistakes did we make?' this leads one to believe we have done nothing wrong, when you are confronted w/ mistakes you say 'yeah, but...they weren't mistakes at the time' does that fucking matter!? does that make them any less of a mistake?
it's using semantics to avoid conceding to the mistakes
i noticed you failed to respond to whether or not al qaeda was innocent...i'll add ya to my list
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
yes, but you still are failing to make sense....cosmo, i believe, said something [roughly] about learning from our mistakes and not repeatimg them...you replied 'what mistakes did we make?' this leads one to believe we have done nothing wrong, when you are confronted w/ mistakes you say 'yeah, but...they weren't mistakes at the time' does that fucking matter!? does that make them any less of a mistake?
he, and you, are trying to compare helping saddam and obl as the same to being friends with pakistan. I believe it is important that we stay friends with them. you both seem to think we shouldnt to "avoid the same mistakes we made before".
it's using semantics to avoid conceding to the mistakes
was it a mistake to help osama? at the time no. but osama and el queda would have become what they are today whether or not we helped them in Afghanistan 25 years ago.
he, and you, are trying to compare helping saddam and obl as the same to being friends with pakistan. I believe it is important that we stay friends with them. you both seem to think we shouldnt to "avoid the same mistakes we made before".
was it a mistake to help osama? at the time no. but osama and el queda would have become what they are today whether or not we helped them in Afghanistan 25 years ago.
yea you know me, i'm el queda's #1 fan.
i can't speak for him but i don't know if it's even to helping them or not, i don't really care, that doesn't matter when i still see it as a bad move. maybe they don't gas their own ppl or their neighbors, but they have done a lot of bad shit...they harbor terrorists, their isi is close links to terrorists including the head of the isi having atta wired $100,000 on 9/10, their president bribed the 9/11 comission to keep 'Pakistan' out of their report, not to mention they actually sold nuke secrets to some ppl i'd think you wouldn't want knowing them while they continue to violate not only the nuclear non-proliferation treaty but refuse iaea inspections and as they continue to be free, thanks to the bush administration's promise, to keep manufacturing weapons grade plutonium....oh, while a coup is possible from within.....yeah, sounds like a great situation to be in to me!
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i can't speak for him but i don't know if it's even to helping them or not, i don't really care, that doesn't matter when i still see it as a bad move. maybe they don't gas their own ppl or their neighbors, but they have done a lot of bad shit...they harbor terrorists, their isi is close links to terrorists including the head of the isi having atta wired $100,000 on 9/10, their president bribed the 9/11 comission to keep 'Pakistan' out of their report, not to mention they actually sold nuke secrets to some ppl i'd think you wouldn't want knowing them while they continue to violate not only the nuclear non-proliferation treaty but refuse iaea inspections and as they continue to be free, thanks to the bush administration's promise, to keep manufacturing weapons grade plutonium....oh, while a coup is possible from within.....yeah, sounds like a great situation to be in to me!
we are getting close here. I dont disagree with you on this. I am not fan of pakistan. it is probably the most fucked up place on earth. it is the base of operations for the taliban and el queda. is a hot bed for extremist activity.
what i'm saying is that we dont have many alternatives to what we are currently doing. we are friends with the government. they have arrested many el queda leaders including your buddy khalid mohammad.
the only alternative I see is all out war with pakistan and its tribal areas. since that idea sucks, lets do what we can to combat terrorism in the country. that is no easy task.
we are talking about being friends with pakistan right? that is the bad policy you speak of?
ok whats the alternative?
It is one thing to befriend another nation. It's completely different to provide arms and money to a country that is one coup away from becoming our greatest nightmare. US policy in the Middle East has been one mistake after another for decades and it may be time we start learning our lesson before we make a truely diseasterous one.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
It is one thing to befriend another nation. It's completely different to provide arms and money to a country that is one coup away from becoming our greatest nightmare. US policy in the Middle East has been one mistake after another for decades and it may be time we start learning our lesson before we make a truely diseasterous one.
i'm not all for us giving them weapons. not such a great idea, I agree. but financial assitance, sounds fine. its an extremely touchy situation with our relations. hard to draw the line somewhere between friend or foe. that last thing I want is to be an all out enemy of pakistan.
...
I think it's about time we learn from our fucking mistakes and quit doing this shit.
But this is not what america wants. It needs to screw up and fuck people over in order to survive. America is dependent on screwing things up.
That's why they make the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over again. These mistakes are not accidents. All america is interested in is fine tuning these mistakes to make itself screw up more efficiently.
For example, America admits that supporting hussein was a mistake, but if they could go back in time they probably would not avoid supporting him, because they needed him, they wanted him. so they'd just "fine tune" that support in way that would keep hussein a puppet.
i'm not saying I am happy about the mission and their accomplishments. just trying to give soul a history lesson
and we're trying to do the same to you. by pointing out that this tactic of arming our enemy's enemies does not make them our friends. yeah, maybe arming osama at the time seemed like a good idea against russia, but history has shown it was unnecessary and had serious consequences down the line. ditto for arming saddam against iran. now we're doing it in pakistan. when will we learn? every time we've done this, we've been burned and it has hurt us far more in the long run than it helped us in the short term. this is the problem with american policy across the board anymore... nobody is willing to look beyond the next election. look tough on *insert imaginary menace here* until you secure re-election and consequences be damned. this goes from foreign policy to the patriot act to welfare to social security. all of our policies are designed for good bullet points on campaign fliers, not for good policy for the american people. pakistan is just another example.
was it a mistake to help osama? at the time no. but osama and el queda would have become what they are today whether or not we helped them in Afghanistan 25 years ago.
and russia would have fallen in the 1980s, regardless of whether or not we funded and trained el queda 25 years ago.
i'm not all for us giving them weapons. not such a great idea, I agree. but financial assitance, sounds fine. its an extremely touchy situation with our relations. hard to draw the line somewhere between friend or foe. that last thing I want is to be an all out enemy of pakistan.
I'm not saying we should concider and treat them like an enemy either, but we should be a little more carefull of who we arm. It seems to me that our government acts without weighing the consequences of their actions. Pakistan under the wrong hands would make Iran look like a wimpering beaten puppy and our solution to that is to throw money at them and provide them with weapons.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
and we're trying to do the same to you. by pointing out that this tactic of arming our enemy's enemies does not make them our friends. yeah, maybe arming osama at the time seemed like a good idea against russia, but history has shown it was unnecessary and had serious consequences down the line. ditto for arming saddam against iran. now we're doing it in pakistan. when will we learn? every time we've done this, we've been burned and it has hurt us far more in the long run than it helped us in the short term. this is the problem with american policy across the board anymore... nobody is willing to look beyond the next election. look tough on *insert imaginary menace here* until you secure re-election and consequences be damned. this goes from foreign policy to the patriot act to welfare to social security. all of our policies are designed for good bullet points on campaign fliers, not for good policy for the american people. pakistan is just another example.
look, I agree that giving them weapons is not a good idea. but I do not agree that we should shun them and become enemies with them. the situation with pakistan is different then that of osama and saddam.
look, I agree that giving them weapons is not a good idea. but I do not agree that we should shun them and become enemies with them. the situation with pakistan is different then that of osama and saddam.
different, but not uncomparable. im not advocating invasion and my first post should have made that clear. it's a ridiculous idea and we're not going to meddle in pakistani affairs at this point. just saying we need to start being a little more wary of what's going on under the surface in our dealings with the middle east. im reasonably sure the only reason this president has played buddy with us is he didnt want to be next after afghanistan 6 years ago. his people dont support him and as you have noted, they really hate us. he might be the best scenario for us at this moment, but it's not going to last forever and it's time we stopped this willful ignorance. it's the same ignorance that lead to an iraq war that had no post-war plan and rested on the assumption that the people would be handing us flowers when we started marching through their streets. we don't have to shun pakistan, but that doesn't mean we need to be their best buddy and prop them up either. you see this as protecting our interests in pakistan. the rest of us see it as jeopardizing them. he cannot rule forever, and the impression his people are getting that he is a us puppet is only going to turn them further against us and fuel the desire for a strongly anti-american government once they get him outta the way. in that sense, the situation is probly more comparable to iran. our puppet rulers dont do well in the long run. you're talking about a short term battle victory that may cost us the war. an appeasing ruler in the present that is likely to produce an even more radically antagonistic ruler in the future.
pakistan and india nuke each other into oblivion over a mountainous region... then the usa, france, UK, and israel engage in nuclear war with russia and china over a pissing contest. and then the earth can return to its healthy state after 10,000 years of nuclear fallout. problem solved.
sometimes it is not difficult to lose all faith in the human species... but i like a good underdog so i always support the idea of hope
Comments
i'm not saying I am happy about the mission and their accomplishments. just trying to give soul a history lesson
so mistakes were made? cos on the 1st page you asked 'what mistakes did we make?'
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
mistakes? in regards to the goals at the time? no.
helping fund the creation of al qaeda is not seen as a mistake???? really? so, you think al qaeda is innocent?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
it was not a mistake in regards to the goals at the time. I thought I already said that?
yes, but you still are failing to make sense....cosmo, i believe, said something [roughly] about learning from our mistakes and not repeatimg them...you replied 'what mistakes did we make?' this leads one to believe we have done nothing wrong, when you are confronted w/ mistakes you say 'yeah, but...they weren't mistakes at the time' does that fucking matter!? does that make them any less of a mistake?
it's using semantics to avoid conceding to the mistakes
i noticed you failed to respond to whether or not al qaeda was innocent...i'll add ya to my list
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
was it a mistake to help osama? at the time no. but osama and el queda would have become what they are today whether or not we helped them in Afghanistan 25 years ago.
yea you know me, i'm el queda's #1 fan.
i can't speak for him but i don't know if it's even to helping them or not, i don't really care, that doesn't matter when i still see it as a bad move. maybe they don't gas their own ppl or their neighbors, but they have done a lot of bad shit...they harbor terrorists, their isi is close links to terrorists including the head of the isi having atta wired $100,000 on 9/10, their president bribed the 9/11 comission to keep 'Pakistan' out of their report, not to mention they actually sold nuke secrets to some ppl i'd think you wouldn't want knowing them while they continue to violate not only the nuclear non-proliferation treaty but refuse iaea inspections and as they continue to be free, thanks to the bush administration's promise, to keep manufacturing weapons grade plutonium....oh, while a coup is possible from within.....yeah, sounds like a great situation to be in to me!
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
we are getting close here. I dont disagree with you on this. I am not fan of pakistan. it is probably the most fucked up place on earth. it is the base of operations for the taliban and el queda. is a hot bed for extremist activity.
what i'm saying is that we dont have many alternatives to what we are currently doing. we are friends with the government. they have arrested many el queda leaders including your buddy khalid mohammad.
the only alternative I see is all out war with pakistan and its tribal areas. since that idea sucks, lets do what we can to combat terrorism in the country. that is no easy task.
It is one thing to befriend another nation. It's completely different to provide arms and money to a country that is one coup away from becoming our greatest nightmare. US policy in the Middle East has been one mistake after another for decades and it may be time we start learning our lesson before we make a truely diseasterous one.
i'm not all for us giving them weapons. not such a great idea, I agree. but financial assitance, sounds fine. its an extremely touchy situation with our relations. hard to draw the line somewhere between friend or foe. that last thing I want is to be an all out enemy of pakistan.
But this is not what america wants. It needs to screw up and fuck people over in order to survive. America is dependent on screwing things up.
That's why they make the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over again. These mistakes are not accidents. All america is interested in is fine tuning these mistakes to make itself screw up more efficiently.
For example, America admits that supporting hussein was a mistake, but if they could go back in time they probably would not avoid supporting him, because they needed him, they wanted him. so they'd just "fine tune" that support in way that would keep hussein a puppet.
and we're trying to do the same to you. by pointing out that this tactic of arming our enemy's enemies does not make them our friends. yeah, maybe arming osama at the time seemed like a good idea against russia, but history has shown it was unnecessary and had serious consequences down the line. ditto for arming saddam against iran. now we're doing it in pakistan. when will we learn? every time we've done this, we've been burned and it has hurt us far more in the long run than it helped us in the short term. this is the problem with american policy across the board anymore... nobody is willing to look beyond the next election. look tough on *insert imaginary menace here* until you secure re-election and consequences be damned. this goes from foreign policy to the patriot act to welfare to social security. all of our policies are designed for good bullet points on campaign fliers, not for good policy for the american people. pakistan is just another example.
and russia would have fallen in the 1980s, regardless of whether or not we funded and trained el queda 25 years ago.
I'm not saying we should concider and treat them like an enemy either, but we should be a little more carefull of who we arm. It seems to me that our government acts without weighing the consequences of their actions. Pakistan under the wrong hands would make Iran look like a wimpering beaten puppy and our solution to that is to throw money at them and provide them with weapons.
look, I agree that giving them weapons is not a good idea. but I do not agree that we should shun them and become enemies with them. the situation with pakistan is different then that of osama and saddam.
different, but not uncomparable. im not advocating invasion and my first post should have made that clear. it's a ridiculous idea and we're not going to meddle in pakistani affairs at this point. just saying we need to start being a little more wary of what's going on under the surface in our dealings with the middle east. im reasonably sure the only reason this president has played buddy with us is he didnt want to be next after afghanistan 6 years ago. his people dont support him and as you have noted, they really hate us. he might be the best scenario for us at this moment, but it's not going to last forever and it's time we stopped this willful ignorance. it's the same ignorance that lead to an iraq war that had no post-war plan and rested on the assumption that the people would be handing us flowers when we started marching through their streets. we don't have to shun pakistan, but that doesn't mean we need to be their best buddy and prop them up either. you see this as protecting our interests in pakistan. the rest of us see it as jeopardizing them. he cannot rule forever, and the impression his people are getting that he is a us puppet is only going to turn them further against us and fuel the desire for a strongly anti-american government once they get him outta the way. in that sense, the situation is probly more comparable to iran. our puppet rulers dont do well in the long run. you're talking about a short term battle victory that may cost us the war. an appeasing ruler in the present that is likely to produce an even more radically antagonistic ruler in the future.
at least a few people get it...
and dont forget the control of resources in said region...
sometimes it is not difficult to lose all faith in the human species... but i like a good underdog so i always support the idea of hope