As an adult, I avoid conflict with loved ones to an unhealthy extent. I'm sure it has a bit to do with as a kid knowing if I laid low, I was less likely to be noticed, get screamed at and beaten.
I don't think teaching kids to fear their parents is good.
I like the method one of my former employers' used with their kids. CHORES
Lots and lots of chores.
Done stacking the wood. Good. Now take all of it and stack it on the other side of the yard.
All three of their kids are growing into wonderful adults.
I think what you are you are describing something a little different than spanking. I was spanked. Never once did I fear my parents. Why? Because spanking hurts a few seconds and then you move on.
"Not every scientist agrees. Robert Larzelere, a human development researcher at Oklahoma State University, says that "conditional" or "backup" spanking in two-to-six-year-old kids can be useful. The spanking needs to be nonabusive (two open-hand swats on the behind from a parent who's not "angrily out of control") and it needs to be used not as a first line of response but as a backup to other kinds of discipline, like timeouts, grounding and reasoning. "Under these conditions, the evidence suggests that it's effective," says Larzelere. Too often, he says, spanking research lumps corporal punishment into one big group, failing to draw the line between overly severe punishment and a couple of taps on the buttocks. His conclusion: conditional spanking isn't more harmful than any other kind of discipline. The key, he says, is that parents need to discriminate between "inappropriate and appropriate use.""
This is a crucial point: the ritualised and controlled use of corporal punishment as a means of discipline.
I was raised into a family where "appropriate" corporal punishment was used. I wouldn't use it to future generations, because I question its affect and effect.
However, one has to see the days of accepted corporal punishment in the context of mindset.
My first school - secular and progressive in the seventies - did not practice corporal punishment but my second school - Catholic and living ideologically back in the fifities - did. The latter was perceived by many among the Irish diasporic community to be superior because the cane and the slipper were in operation. It's what they were used to: the legacy of colonialism, rod and rule.
I can even remember several (second generation Irish and Italian) schoolchildren getting the cane in front of the whole school for getting into a fight with other (posh English) children at a school around the corner. If you wanted to be Freudian about that public flogging, you could have a field day, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and the public caning was thought very much part and parcel of a good education of the unruly. However, I remember the Irish and Italian kids would get a whooping far more than the English. Noticeably so.
I think what you are you are describing something a little different than spanking. I was spanked. Never once did I fear my parents. Why? Because spanking hurts a few seconds and then you move on.
So what made you do what your parents asked of you then?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
So what made you do what your parents asked of you then?
I did not want to get spanked. That doesn't mean I feared my parents. I feared the punishment, not my mom or dad. If spanking makes kids fear their parents, then that is not spanking, it is something different. I think it is a combination of spanking and talking. When a child is young you can't reason with them too much. As kids get more mature, yeah, you can talk to them more and reason with them.
Anyway, I can understand if people don't want to spank their kids. But people on the other side should understand that spanking is not abuse if done correctly, and should get over it.
I did not want to get spanked. That doesn't mean I feared my parents. I feared the punishment, not my mom or dad. If spanking makes kids fear their parents, then that is not spanking, it is something different. I think it is a combination of spanking and talking. When a child is young you can't reason with them too much. As kids get more mature, yeah, you can talk to them more and reason with them.
Anyway, I can understand if people don't want to spank their kids. But people on the other side should understand that spanking is not abuse if done correctly, and should get over it.
You fear the spanking which came from your parents. That's why people fear people who have committed crimes. We fear they may harm us because they have a history of things such as stealing, killing, etc. You may fear the verb but you also fear the noun who chose to carry it out. Your parents are the ones who decided to give you the spanking.
Spanking is the irrational way to handle problems in which a parent feels they have lost control. There is always a choice. A child can be reasoned with and parents should help them to understand why the thing they did was wrong. Spanking only teaches kids not to get caught next time not that their action was wrong in the first place and for a good reason.
I could thump you in the eye everytime you disagreed with me. You would stop because you feared me thumping you in the eye not because you thought you were wrong for disagreeing with me. And I couldn't rationally explain why it would be wrong for you to disagree with me, either. Reasoning, patience and undertsanding should be enough to earn a child's respect. And if you can't reason with children, it's because they are too young to understand and certainly shouldn't be receiving spankings anyway OR you had no logical reasoning to give as to why they shouldn't be doing what you asked them not to.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
You fear the spanking which came from your parents. That's why people fear people who have committed crimes. We fear they may harm us because they have a history of things such as stealing, killing, etc. You may fear the verb but you also fear the noun who chose to carry it out. Your parents are the ones who decided to give you the spanking.
Spanking is the irrational way to handle problems in which a parent feels they have lost control. There is always a choice. A child can be reasoned with and parents should help them to understand why the thing they did was wrong. Spanking only teaches kids not to get caught next time not that their action was wrong in the first place and for a good reason.
I could thump you in the eye everytime you disagreed with me. You would stop because you feared me thumping you in the eye not because you thought you were wrong for disagreeing with me. And I couldn't rationally explain why it would be wrong for you to disagree with me, either. Reasoning, patience and undertsanding should be enough to earn a child's respect. And if you can't reason with children, it's because they are too young to understand and certainly shouldn't be receiving spankings anyway OR you had no logical reasoning to give as to why they shouldn't be doing what you asked them not to.
I understood why I was being spanked. It was not because I did something my parents did not like, it was because I did something wrong. I think kids would just as much try not to get caught the next time if their punishment was a timeout.
My parents did not lose control, and thus have to spank me. Spanking is a form of discipline, just like a timeout, taking a toy away, etc.... You are taking this "losing control" thing to far. It is a type of discipline. Under your thesis, giving a kid a timeout or taking a toy away is "losing control" because they are forms of discipline. Of course, you are going to say that spanking is abuse because you think it is.
As for the too young part of your argument...When kids are young, cause and effect is more effective than a sitdown chat. Touch a stove and you get burned. That is how a 2 year old learns not to do something. If they are too young to understand why they are being selfish or misbehaving, that behavior still needs to be corrected, or else when they are older they will continue that behavior. A spanking will at least help limit that behavior. Again, a spanking is a quick pain that goes away in a few seconds. But yet is still very effective. Reasoning equates equality. Parents need to be authority figures, and not best friends. There is time to be best friends when your kids are mature adults. How can you explain that me and my two brothers who are all 26 and older are extremely close to our parents, even though they spanked us? We all have great jobs, great families, and never got into trouble. How could all of this happen if spanking is truly as horrible as you say it is?
Why when I am over at my brother's house and my 4 year old nephew acts up, and gets a spanking, does my nephew than be smiling 20 minutes later and sitting on his mother's lap? Under your thesis, shouldn't he be cowering in a corner somewhere scared that his mother is going to hit him, instead of apologizing to his sister for taking her toy or whatever, and sitting on his mom's lap (who just spanked him 20 minutes ago)?
Why when I am over at my brother's house and my 4 year old nephew acts up, and gets a spanking, does my nephew than be smiling 20 minutes later and sitting on his mother's lap? Under your thesis, shouldn't he be cowering in a corner somewhere scared that his mother is going to hit him, instead of apologizing to his sister for taking her toy or whatever, and sitting on his mom's lap (who just spanked him 20 minutes ago)?
Why does an abused wife stay with her husband? Why does she blame the abuse on herself and try harder to show him love? Not saying the 2 scenarios are equal, but you can't judge whether or not something is abuse by the actions that follow.
You said it yourself. Your parents were not out of control, they simply chose to hit instead of speak. Why? I haven't had to hit my kids. They are 17 and 14. Both are National Honor Society students, athletes, volunteer, my 17 year old holds a job. They don't get in trouble, are well mannered, and are able to hold adult conversations. I'm sure there are examples of kids who have been spanked all of their lives acheiving the same thing. So again, if your choice is to hit or to speak, why choose hitting as a method of parenting? I can only think it has to do with either laziness (it takes longer and is harder to reason with a child), or anger management issues.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Why does an abused wife stay with her husband? Why does she blame the abuse on herself and try harder to show him love? Not saying the 2 scenarios are equal, but you can't judge whether or not something is abuse by the actions that follow.
You said it yourself. Your parents were not out of control, they simply chose to hit instead of speak. Why? I haven't had to hit my kids. They are 17 and 14. Both are National Honor Society students, athletes, volunteer, my 17 year old holds a job. They don't get in trouble, are well mannered, and are able to hold adult conversations. I'm sure there are examples of kids who have been spanked all of their lives acheiving the same thing. So again, if your choice is to hit or to speak, why choose hitting as a method of parenting? I can only think it has to do with either laziness (it takes longer and is harder to reason with a child), or anger management issues.
I do not equate "spanking" with hitting. I do not see spanking as "violence". I am not saying we were not told what we did that was wrong. We did not get chased down and spanked and that was that. We were told what we did was wrong, why it was wrong, and then got spanked. Part of discipline is consequence.
Your kids did fine without spanking. I am sure me and my brothers would have turned out fine without spanking either. Spanking was just another form of discipline to use instead of stupid timeouts in your bedroom where idiot parents give their 5 year-olds TV's and computers. We do not view spanking as hitting like you do, so that is why we feel it is okay to do. You see it as some sort of violent act, when all it is just a quick pat on the butt that hurts for a second.
I do not think you have to spank your children to raise them right. But you do need to reign these kids in and provide stern consequences to their actions.
People have done things for generations that have worked and have done things for generations that have not worked. I do not think spanking in the grand scheme of things has done any harm. If it has, it is because it was hitting and abuse and not just a little spank. We got people overthinking non-issues to run from the real issue: parents that do not take an active approach to their kids lives.
Perfect example: In past decades, people got married and had children. They then made their children focus on school, get their homework done before they played, helped them with their homework.
Now: People have children out of wedlock. Work all hours of the day. Don't care about their children's schooling. Blame the school because their kids get bad grades. Liberals don't want to look at the problem, they blame the government for their kids not learning. Kids are out of control today not because they got spanked or didn't get spanked, but because parents did not take an active role in their child's life. But instead of addressing this issue, we focus on books about spanking, fighting to waste more money on schools that don't succeed because their students don't care, etc....
wow, this is gone out of control. 'Spanking' is NOT abuse... if it's beating well that's a whole different issue. I certainly did not fear my parents, they were good parents and there was a lot of love but I knew not to do something wrong because I would be in trouble... simple as that. Kids these days do not have anything to prevent them from being little fuckers, except sitting on a step for 10 minutes thinking about all the things they could be doing otherwise, so guess what, they ARE little fuckers. From a young age you need to learn that your actions have consequences... that's what's missing from kids these days... they think they can do whatever the fuck they want and then go home and 'talk about why they chose to stab little johnny' and then as punishment, they'll get to read a great book rather than play their playstation for a night... which incidentally is better for them anyway.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Comments
damnit, stop it before you end up like us! trying to wrest control of your country from insane evangelicals!
I think what you are you are describing something a little different than spanking. I was spanked. Never once did I fear my parents. Why? Because spanking hurts a few seconds and then you move on.
"Not every scientist agrees. Robert Larzelere, a human development researcher at Oklahoma State University, says that "conditional" or "backup" spanking in two-to-six-year-old kids can be useful. The spanking needs to be nonabusive (two open-hand swats on the behind from a parent who's not "angrily out of control") and it needs to be used not as a first line of response but as a backup to other kinds of discipline, like timeouts, grounding and reasoning. "Under these conditions, the evidence suggests that it's effective," says Larzelere. Too often, he says, spanking research lumps corporal punishment into one big group, failing to draw the line between overly severe punishment and a couple of taps on the buttocks. His conclusion: conditional spanking isn't more harmful than any other kind of discipline. The key, he says, is that parents need to discriminate between "inappropriate and appropriate use.""
This is a crucial point: the ritualised and controlled use of corporal punishment as a means of discipline.
I was raised into a family where "appropriate" corporal punishment was used. I wouldn't use it to future generations, because I question its affect and effect.
However, one has to see the days of accepted corporal punishment in the context of mindset.
My first school - secular and progressive in the seventies - did not practice corporal punishment but my second school - Catholic and living ideologically back in the fifities - did. The latter was perceived by many among the Irish diasporic community to be superior because the cane and the slipper were in operation. It's what they were used to: the legacy of colonialism, rod and rule.
I can even remember several (second generation Irish and Italian) schoolchildren getting the cane in front of the whole school for getting into a fight with other (posh English) children at a school around the corner. If you wanted to be Freudian about that public flogging, you could have a field day, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and the public caning was thought very much part and parcel of a good education of the unruly. However, I remember the Irish and Italian kids would get a whooping far more than the English. Noticeably so.
So what made you do what your parents asked of you then?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I did not want to get spanked. That doesn't mean I feared my parents. I feared the punishment, not my mom or dad. If spanking makes kids fear their parents, then that is not spanking, it is something different. I think it is a combination of spanking and talking. When a child is young you can't reason with them too much. As kids get more mature, yeah, you can talk to them more and reason with them.
Anyway, I can understand if people don't want to spank their kids. But people on the other side should understand that spanking is not abuse if done correctly, and should get over it.
You fear the spanking which came from your parents. That's why people fear people who have committed crimes. We fear they may harm us because they have a history of things such as stealing, killing, etc. You may fear the verb but you also fear the noun who chose to carry it out. Your parents are the ones who decided to give you the spanking.
Spanking is the irrational way to handle problems in which a parent feels they have lost control. There is always a choice. A child can be reasoned with and parents should help them to understand why the thing they did was wrong. Spanking only teaches kids not to get caught next time not that their action was wrong in the first place and for a good reason.
I could thump you in the eye everytime you disagreed with me. You would stop because you feared me thumping you in the eye not because you thought you were wrong for disagreeing with me. And I couldn't rationally explain why it would be wrong for you to disagree with me, either. Reasoning, patience and undertsanding should be enough to earn a child's respect. And if you can't reason with children, it's because they are too young to understand and certainly shouldn't be receiving spankings anyway OR you had no logical reasoning to give as to why they shouldn't be doing what you asked them not to.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I understood why I was being spanked. It was not because I did something my parents did not like, it was because I did something wrong. I think kids would just as much try not to get caught the next time if their punishment was a timeout.
My parents did not lose control, and thus have to spank me. Spanking is a form of discipline, just like a timeout, taking a toy away, etc.... You are taking this "losing control" thing to far. It is a type of discipline. Under your thesis, giving a kid a timeout or taking a toy away is "losing control" because they are forms of discipline. Of course, you are going to say that spanking is abuse because you think it is.
As for the too young part of your argument...When kids are young, cause and effect is more effective than a sitdown chat. Touch a stove and you get burned. That is how a 2 year old learns not to do something. If they are too young to understand why they are being selfish or misbehaving, that behavior still needs to be corrected, or else when they are older they will continue that behavior. A spanking will at least help limit that behavior. Again, a spanking is a quick pain that goes away in a few seconds. But yet is still very effective. Reasoning equates equality. Parents need to be authority figures, and not best friends. There is time to be best friends when your kids are mature adults. How can you explain that me and my two brothers who are all 26 and older are extremely close to our parents, even though they spanked us? We all have great jobs, great families, and never got into trouble. How could all of this happen if spanking is truly as horrible as you say it is?
Why when I am over at my brother's house and my 4 year old nephew acts up, and gets a spanking, does my nephew than be smiling 20 minutes later and sitting on his mother's lap? Under your thesis, shouldn't he be cowering in a corner somewhere scared that his mother is going to hit him, instead of apologizing to his sister for taking her toy or whatever, and sitting on his mom's lap (who just spanked him 20 minutes ago)?
Why does an abused wife stay with her husband? Why does she blame the abuse on herself and try harder to show him love? Not saying the 2 scenarios are equal, but you can't judge whether or not something is abuse by the actions that follow.
You said it yourself. Your parents were not out of control, they simply chose to hit instead of speak. Why? I haven't had to hit my kids. They are 17 and 14. Both are National Honor Society students, athletes, volunteer, my 17 year old holds a job. They don't get in trouble, are well mannered, and are able to hold adult conversations. I'm sure there are examples of kids who have been spanked all of their lives acheiving the same thing. So again, if your choice is to hit or to speak, why choose hitting as a method of parenting? I can only think it has to do with either laziness (it takes longer and is harder to reason with a child), or anger management issues.
I do not equate "spanking" with hitting. I do not see spanking as "violence". I am not saying we were not told what we did that was wrong. We did not get chased down and spanked and that was that. We were told what we did was wrong, why it was wrong, and then got spanked. Part of discipline is consequence.
Your kids did fine without spanking. I am sure me and my brothers would have turned out fine without spanking either. Spanking was just another form of discipline to use instead of stupid timeouts in your bedroom where idiot parents give their 5 year-olds TV's and computers. We do not view spanking as hitting like you do, so that is why we feel it is okay to do. You see it as some sort of violent act, when all it is just a quick pat on the butt that hurts for a second.
I do not think you have to spank your children to raise them right. But you do need to reign these kids in and provide stern consequences to their actions.
People have done things for generations that have worked and have done things for generations that have not worked. I do not think spanking in the grand scheme of things has done any harm. If it has, it is because it was hitting and abuse and not just a little spank. We got people overthinking non-issues to run from the real issue: parents that do not take an active approach to their kids lives.
Perfect example: In past decades, people got married and had children. They then made their children focus on school, get their homework done before they played, helped them with their homework.
Now: People have children out of wedlock. Work all hours of the day. Don't care about their children's schooling. Blame the school because their kids get bad grades. Liberals don't want to look at the problem, they blame the government for their kids not learning. Kids are out of control today not because they got spanked or didn't get spanked, but because parents did not take an active role in their child's life. But instead of addressing this issue, we focus on books about spanking, fighting to waste more money on schools that don't succeed because their students don't care, etc....
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you