No, but I don't see how this question is relevant. Anti-abortion laws do not infringe on Constitutional rights.
actually, it is quite possible they do, via the privileges and immunities clause i mentioned. i guess basic constitutional interpretation and comprehension is beyond the grasp of your intellect. but i guess i do see how much easier it is to ignore points that are inconvenient and pretend they don't exist.
No. It got the big ones out of the way, and left the rest of the decisions to the states.
no, it mentions a few specific and major rights reserved by the people. then it outlines the very limited role of government and its limited powers. it reserves all other activities to the states OR the people. not just the states. thus the argument here, are medical decisions personal and rights reserved by the people, or can they be regulated by the state? there are arguments on both sides. you just can't see anything beyond your own narrow and egocentric views... you'd really enjoy iran, they operate the same way.
"Should the legislature have the power to demand that you surrender one of your constitutionally protected rights in order to exercise another?"
Look, you can argue about whether or not abortion rights SHOULD be constitutionally protected, but you can't dispute that, as of today, they ARE. So the question is whether or not it is appropriate for the legislature to demand that you relinquish one right in order to hold on to a different one.
There is a right way and a wrong way to interpret the Constitution, and not all interpretations are equally valid. It is possible for the Supreme Court to decide that something is constitutional or unconstitutional when in fact it is not.
You may believe them to be in error. I believe that they were in error on the eminent domain decision, for example, but my belief doesn't change the fact that today in America the government has the right to take my private property away and give it to someone else. It's perfectly constitutional. I don't think it should be, but it is.
"The states" and "the people" are essentially the same thing. The people exercise those reserved powers through voting.
They are not the same thing. The state has a vested interest in limiting some behaviors, but not others. I don't happen to believe that the state has a compelling interest in forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her will, or in interfering with private medical decisions. Not everything in life requires government intervention. Some rights are simply OURS.
If it involves another human being, it isn't private.
If it involves a human being wholly contained within my body and wholly dependent on me and me alone for survival, a being that cannot feel pain and is unaware of it's own existence, it certainly is private.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Not really, no. Parasitism is defined primarily by the symbiotic relationship between one organism and its host. Can you please describe the "lot more" you mention, rather than alluding to it?
It's unfortunate that that is the only important difference you are able to discern between prenatal development and parasitism.
Can you name some other "important differences", rather than just alluding to them?
Actually, no. Sperm and eggs will not combine on their own; it takes sexual intercourse for that to happen. The process from conception to birth is automatic.
It doesn't thake sexual intercourse for that to happen. It simply takes an environment wherein a sperm and egg can exist together whilst supporting fertilization. Thousands of children are now conceived each year absent sexual intercourse.
People are using arbitrary milestones when they should give nature the benefit of the doubt. Using your logic, it is perfectly acceptable to conclude that a three year old child is not a human being, and can therefore be euthanized if someone decides that his or her life will be filled with suffering.
You're entirely right -- people are using arbitrary milestones. So are you.
And yes, using my logic one could argue that very small dependent children could be legally euthanized. Fortunately, that argument would be logically incomplete absent the truly dependent relationship between mother and child and absent the case against self-actualization that happens at a young age.
You cannot simply make arguments from a point of convenience or attempt to fit a philosophical stance to an existing world-view. That's backwards.
Neither can a two year old. Can we kill those off too?
a two year old is a being independent of its mother. it does not rely solely on her for its survival. so in answer to your stupid question, no of course we shouldn't kill off two year olds.
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I think if a woman is pregnant and murdered, and the murderer gets two counts of murder, then abortion should be murder. However, if the murderer only gets one count of murder, then it would make more sense. Land of confusion.
Abortion sucks, and so people who get them. I have absolutely no pity on the women that get them. I wish what happened to the baby would happen to the woman and the doctor.
When life gives you lemons, throw them at somebody.
I think if a woman is pregnant and murdered, and the murderer gets two counts of murder, then abortion should be murder. However, if the murderer only gets one count of murder, then it would make more sense. Land of confusion.
Abortion sucks, and so people who get them. I have absolutely no pity on the women that get them. I wish what happened to the baby would happen to the woman and the doctor.
funny, i was just thinking that i wish what happened to the baby would happen to people like you.
I think if a woman is pregnant and murdered, and the murderer gets two counts of murder, then abortion should be murder. However, if the murderer only gets one count of murder, then it would make more sense. Land of confusion.
Abortion sucks, and so people who get them. I have absolutely no pity on the women that get them. I wish what happened to the baby would happen to the woman and the doctor.
if a mexican is conceived on vacation in LA is that mexican an american?
life has nothing to do with killing time
Bring it on cause I'm no victim
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I think if a woman is pregnant and murdered, and the murderer gets two counts of murder, then abortion should be murder. However, if the murderer only gets one count of murder, then it would make more sense. Land of confusion.
Haha, but what if a woman who has been pregnant less than, say 8 weeks, is murdered and the murderer gets 1 count of murder then but would have gotten two after that period?
Abortion sucks, and so people who get them. I have absolutely no pity on the women that get them. I wish what happened to the baby would happen to the woman and the doctor.
I think unless you have signed the Hippocratic Oath and/or been pregnant you shouldn't be wishing anything.
Its a living thing like a plant is. Or a larva or pupa (intermediate stages of a butterfly). Its not yet a separate human being.
edit - maybe not plant - more like a seedling. or a sprouted seed.
since you mentioned seedlings...why should a farmer be eligible for assistance if his corn crop is destroyed before the ears have appeared? Does the government say "sorry but that's not really corn yet." ?
do you get excited when you look at your tomato plants and see tons of yellow flowers? They aren't really 'tomato's' yet but you know they will be...
and hippiemom---you're right, of course it is.
It's a living thing, just not a baby. (which I don't believe so I'm still in abortion-rights limbo)
do you get excited when you look at your tomato plants and see tons of yellow flowers? They aren't really 'tomato's' yet but you know they will be...
They will be if deer don't eat them, storms don't destroy them, drought doesn't kill them. No I don't get excited until I actually have tomatoes picked. Until then you can't count on them. As to corn, I have no idea what happens, and it doesn't matter for the sake of this discussion. Flowers on vines are not ready tomatoes anymore than an embryo is a separate human being. Ah well, I'll stay out - I know what I think, and its why I usually don't get in these abortion threads. They don't get anywhere. I expect if I was a mod. I'd have locked it by now. I am guessing everyone still believes what they believed on page 1.
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Haha, but what if a woman who has been pregnant less than, say 8 weeks, is murdered and the murderer gets 1 count of murder then but would have gotten two after that period?
I think unless you have signed the Hippocratic Oath and/or been pregnant you shouldn't be wishing anything.
It has nothing to do with a being a hypocrite. The baby is innocent and can't protect itself, it would be only justice if the same thing happened to the murderers. I don't want kids myself, and wouldn't let myself get pregnant, but if I ever DID get pregnant, doing what caused the pregnancy was when I made my choice. There's no freakin way I'de ever get an abortion. You people have no heart. You talk to people who are against abortion like they're closed minded and full of hate, when people who support abortion are the hateful ones. To kill an innocent baby that cannot protect himself is one the most hateful crime I can think of. Do you KNOW how abortion works!? They pour acid on the baby to eat it alive, or they chop it up in a bunch of pieces (while its alive), or they stick a tube in its head and suck it's brains out (While its alive).
I'm sure if a one-year-old child was beaten to death, you would want swift retribution on the person who did it, as would I. If you support abortion, you support murder.
When life gives you lemons, throw them at somebody.
It has nothing to do with a being a hypocrite. The baby is innocent and can't protect itself, it would be only justice if the same thing happened to the murderers. I don't want kids myself, and wouldn't let myself get pregnant, but if I ever DID get pregnant, doing what caused the pregnancy was when I made my choice. There's no freakin way I'de ever get an abortion. You people have no heart. You talk to people who are against abortion like they're closed minded and full of hate, when people who support abortion are the hateful ones. To kill an innocent baby that cannot protect himself is one the most hateful crime I can think of. Do you KNOW how abortion works!? They pour acid on the baby to eat it alive, or they chop it up in a bunch of pieces (while its alive), or they stick a tube in its head and suck it's brains out (While its alive).
I'm sure if a one-year-old child was beaten to death, you would want swift retribution on the person who did it, as would I. If you support abortion, you support murder.
somebody's been going to jesus camp.
yes, abortion is murder... if you believe a fetus is a living baby human being.
It has nothing to do with a being a hypocrite. The baby is innocent and can't protect itself, it would be only justice if the same thing happened to the murderers. I don't want kids myself, and wouldn't let myself get pregnant, but if I ever DID get pregnant, doing what caused the pregnancy was when I made my choice. There's no freakin way I'de ever get an abortion. You people have no heart. You talk to people who are against abortion like they're closed minded and full of hate, when people who support abortion are the hateful ones. To kill an innocent baby that cannot protect himself is one the most hateful crime I can think of. Do you KNOW how abortion works!? They pour acid on the baby to eat it alive, or they chop it up in a bunch of pieces (while its alive), or they stick a tube in its head and suck it's brains out (While its alive).
I'm sure if a one-year-old child was beaten to death, you would want swift retribution on the person who did it, as would I. If you support abortion, you support murder.
Clearly someone doesn't know how the vast majority of first term abortions are performed. also the vast majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester while it's not even close to being a baby, it's barely even a tadpole yet.
It has nothing to do with a being a hypocrite. The baby is innocent and can't protect itself, it would be only justice if the same thing happened to the murderers. I don't want kids myself, and wouldn't let myself get pregnant, but if I ever DID get pregnant, doing what caused the pregnancy was when I made my choice. There's no freakin way I'de ever get an abortion. You people have no heart. You talk to people who are against abortion like they're closed minded and full of hate, when people who support abortion are the hateful ones. To kill an innocent baby that cannot protect himself is one the most hateful crime I can think of. Do you KNOW how abortion works!? They pour acid on the baby to eat it alive, or they chop it up in a bunch of pieces (while its alive), or they stick a tube in its head and suck it's brains out (While its alive).
I'm sure if a one-year-old child was beaten to death, you would want swift retribution on the person who did it, as would I. If you support abortion, you support murder.
You need to turn some of that "absolute" insight about other people that you seem to have into something a bit more akin to "walk a mile in my shoes".
Abortion is never as simple as "if you support abortion, you support murder". Frankly that argument is inflamatory, will get you no where in the end, and is way too over simplistic. If you don't support abortion fine, but at least educate yourself about it before you start slinging insults, making defamatory comments and telling out and out lies about procedures. In order for the abortion debate to truly move forward people need to learn to communicate their truth to each other. Your "truth" so far, is just making me want to dismiss what you have to say.
You need to turn some of that "absolute" insight about other people that you seem to have into something a bit more akin to "walk a mile in my shoes".
Abortion is never as simple as "if you support abortion, you support murder". Frankly that argument is inflamatory, will get you know where in the end, and is way too over simplistic. If you don't support abortion fine, but at least educate yourself about it before you start slinging insults, making defamatory comments and telling out and out lies about procedures. In order for the abortion debate to truly move forward people need to learn to communicate their truth to each other. Your "truth" so far, is just making me want to dismiss what you have to say.
Jeanie has it correct. i've had an abortion and I've also had two kids(against Dr.s orders) so does that make me a murderer or a martyr?
It has nothing to do with a being a hypocrite. The baby is innocent and can't protect itself, it would be only justice if the same thing happened to the murderers. I don't want kids myself, and wouldn't let myself get pregnant, but if I ever DID get pregnant, doing what caused the pregnancy was when I made my choice. There's no freakin way I'de ever get an abortion. You people have no heart. You talk to people who are against abortion like they're closed minded and full of hate, when people who support abortion are the hateful ones. To kill an innocent baby that cannot protect himself is one the most hateful crime I can think of. Do you KNOW how abortion works!? They pour acid on the baby to eat it alive, or they chop it up in a bunch of pieces (while its alive), or they stick a tube in its head and suck it's brains out (While its alive).
I'm sure if a one-year-old child was beaten to death, you would want swift retribution on the person who did it, as would I. If you support abortion, you support murder.
I don't consider myself full of hate. And I generally have to talk for a while to someone to state he is full of hate.
"To kill an innocent baby that cannot protect himself is one the most hateful crime I can think of" we agree on this. What I was saying in the post you quoted was that we have 2 different definitions of baby, for me a baby is at least a 10 week old foetus. It's an arbitrary line but I'm not convinced yet a 4-cell organism can be qualified as a human being.
As for techniques of abortion I'm sorry I never heard of those. The legal ones practised in my country are aspiration of the whole foetus (what's the point in taking only the brain??) or a drug, nothing as barbaric as you described. (where in the world did you get the acid thing?)
What's next - legislation enforcing circumcision! It is your own body and own responsibility as to what happens to it. You should be allowed to decide if you make a mistake, or know you can't live up to the responsibility, or don't want to traumatise a child by giving them away. Abortion has been going on for centuries dating back to when peasant women aborted fetuses that would be born in winter or the traditional hungry months. A child should only ever be brought into the world b/c it's mother desires this responsibility and experience more than anything. Government should back off!!
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What's next - legislation enforcing circumcision! It is your own body and own responsibility as to what happens to it. You should be allowed to decide if you make a mistake, or know you can't live up to the responsibility, or don't want to traumatise a child by giving them away. Abortion has been going on for centuries dating back to when peasant women aborted fetuses that would be born in winter or the traditional hungry months. A child should only ever be brought into the world b/c it's mother desires this responsibility and experience more than anything. Government should back off!!
Well said girl!!
Just hope Tony Abbott doesn't get wind of the SC law change! I can just imagine what he'd do with it!! :eek:
Comments
actually, it is quite possible they do, via the privileges and immunities clause i mentioned. i guess basic constitutional interpretation and comprehension is beyond the grasp of your intellect. but i guess i do see how much easier it is to ignore points that are inconvenient and pretend they don't exist.
again, we're back to this very debatable conclusion.
no, it mentions a few specific and major rights reserved by the people. then it outlines the very limited role of government and its limited powers. it reserves all other activities to the states OR the people. not just the states. thus the argument here, are medical decisions personal and rights reserved by the people, or can they be regulated by the state? there are arguments on both sides. you just can't see anything beyond your own narrow and egocentric views... you'd really enjoy iran, they operate the same way.
Look, you can argue about whether or not abortion rights SHOULD be constitutionally protected, but you can't dispute that, as of today, they ARE. So the question is whether or not it is appropriate for the legislature to demand that you relinquish one right in order to hold on to a different one.
Why? What makes a human fetus more deserving than other forms of life?
You may believe them to be in error. I believe that they were in error on the eminent domain decision, for example, but my belief doesn't change the fact that today in America the government has the right to take my private property away and give it to someone else. It's perfectly constitutional. I don't think it should be, but it is.
Yes ... not to define and limit the rights of citizens.
They are not the same thing. The state has a vested interest in limiting some behaviors, but not others. I don't happen to believe that the state has a compelling interest in forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her will, or in interfering with private medical decisions. Not everything in life requires government intervention. Some rights are simply OURS.
If it involves a human being wholly contained within my body and wholly dependent on me and me alone for survival, a being that cannot feel pain and is unaware of it's own existence, it certainly is private.
If I die while I'm 10 weeks pregnant, who else can keep the fetus alive?
zing...
Not really, no. Parasitism is defined primarily by the symbiotic relationship between one organism and its host. Can you please describe the "lot more" you mention, rather than alluding to it?
Can you name some other "important differences", rather than just alluding to them?
It doesn't thake sexual intercourse for that to happen. It simply takes an environment wherein a sperm and egg can exist together whilst supporting fertilization. Thousands of children are now conceived each year absent sexual intercourse.
You're entirely right -- people are using arbitrary milestones. So are you.
And yes, using my logic one could argue that very small dependent children could be legally euthanized. Fortunately, that argument would be logically incomplete absent the truly dependent relationship between mother and child and absent the case against self-actualization that happens at a young age.
You cannot simply make arguments from a point of convenience or attempt to fit a philosophical stance to an existing world-view. That's backwards.
a two year old is a being independent of its mother. it does not rely solely on her for its survival. so in answer to your stupid question, no of course we shouldn't kill off two year olds.
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Ah! Thank you!!
Think I'll just let you do the talking mom!!
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Hold on to the thread
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Abortion sucks, and so people who get them. I have absolutely no pity on the women that get them. I wish what happened to the baby would happen to the woman and the doctor.
funny, i was just thinking that i wish what happened to the baby would happen to people like you.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Bring it on cause I'm no victim
b nice loves pearl jam like ed vedder loves america
if a mexican is conceived on vacation in LA is that mexican an american?
Bring it on cause I'm no victim
b nice loves pearl jam like ed vedder loves america
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
a mexican was always an american. as is anyone in the americas. arbitrary borders dont change that fact.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I think unless you have signed the Hippocratic Oath and/or been pregnant you shouldn't be wishing anything.
'alive'? you're saying a 10 week old fetus is a living thing?
Its a living thing like a plant is. Or a larva or pupa (intermediate stages of a butterfly). Its not yet a separate human being.
edit - maybe not plant - more like a seedling. or a sprouted seed.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
since you mentioned seedlings...why should a farmer be eligible for assistance if his corn crop is destroyed before the ears have appeared? Does the government say "sorry but that's not really corn yet." ?
do you get excited when you look at your tomato plants and see tons of yellow flowers? They aren't really 'tomato's' yet but you know they will be...
and hippiemom---you're right, of course it is.
It's a living thing, just not a baby. (which I don't believe so I'm still in abortion-rights limbo)
that's a good point. why 2 counts of murder? Is it only 1 count if the murder takes place before 12 weeks?
They will be if deer don't eat them, storms don't destroy them, drought doesn't kill them. No I don't get excited until I actually have tomatoes picked. Until then you can't count on them. As to corn, I have no idea what happens, and it doesn't matter for the sake of this discussion. Flowers on vines are not ready tomatoes anymore than an embryo is a separate human being. Ah well, I'll stay out - I know what I think, and its why I usually don't get in these abortion threads. They don't get anywhere. I expect if I was a mod. I'd have locked it by now. I am guessing everyone still believes what they believed on page 1.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
I'm sure if a one-year-old child was beaten to death, you would want swift retribution on the person who did it, as would I. If you support abortion, you support murder.
somebody's been going to jesus camp.
yes, abortion is murder... if you believe a fetus is a living baby human being.
Clearly someone doesn't know how the vast majority of first term abortions are performed. also the vast majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester while it's not even close to being a baby, it's barely even a tadpole yet.
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
You need to turn some of that "absolute" insight about other people that you seem to have into something a bit more akin to "walk a mile in my shoes".
Abortion is never as simple as "if you support abortion, you support murder". Frankly that argument is inflamatory, will get you no where in the end, and is way too over simplistic. If you don't support abortion fine, but at least educate yourself about it before you start slinging insults, making defamatory comments and telling out and out lies about procedures. In order for the abortion debate to truly move forward people need to learn to communicate their truth to each other. Your "truth" so far, is just making me want to dismiss what you have to say.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Jeanie has it correct. i've had an abortion and I've also had two kids(against Dr.s orders) so does that make me a murderer or a martyr?
I'd say that it makes me neither one
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*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
And I'd agree prism.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I don't consider myself full of hate. And I generally have to talk for a while to someone to state he is full of hate.
"To kill an innocent baby that cannot protect himself is one the most hateful crime I can think of" we agree on this. What I was saying in the post you quoted was that we have 2 different definitions of baby, for me a baby is at least a 10 week old foetus. It's an arbitrary line but I'm not convinced yet a 4-cell organism can be qualified as a human being.
As for techniques of abortion I'm sorry I never heard of those. The legal ones practised in my country are aspiration of the whole foetus (what's the point in taking only the brain??) or a drug, nothing as barbaric as you described. (where in the world did you get the acid thing?)
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Well said girl!!
Just hope Tony Abbott doesn't get wind of the SC law change! I can just imagine what he'd do with it!! :eek:
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift