civil disobedience

decides2dream

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Will stealing the signs make a huge difference over all? No, not even close. But, to me, if it made a difference in only one life, keeping one person from being shipped over there and coming back home in a box then it was worth it.

ANY tangible act will make a difference...and even one life, is a LIFE...so well done!


in regards to any 'fear' of an fbi file or the like .....honestly, that would be the least of my worries in regards to such actions. i do not fear such, nor am i afraid to speak out, to protest, etc....i do wonder about such acts as denying fed tax payments and such...the repercussions....b/c THAT if done on a grand scale, might actually hit em where it only seems to hurt em...the wallet. thus why i am so curious to any recent personal experience to such. someone posted a link to something about the idea...i looked briefly...but i was looking for more first-hand experience and/or knowledge.


nick...yea, i mentioned thoreau earlier. i have never read any of his work in their enitrty, but many, many long excerpts back in college so yea.....he is quite inspirational.

polaris

damm ... if i need to fall asleep - i'll read thoreau ... i'm all for what he was about but that kind of writing style is dry dry dry ... give me harry potter any day ...

decides2dream

polaris wrote:

damm ... if i need to fall asleep - i'll read thoreau ... i'm all for what he was about but that kind of writing style is dry dry dry ... give me harry potter any day ...

haha....excerpts are best.
i'll skip the harry potter too....neither really my chosen form of reading material, but yea....i digress......

his ideas were/are revolutionary, especially for his time....and truly were one of the first acts of individual civil disobedience...a true model.....whether one agreed with his cause or not, he did much to further the idea.

nick1977

By the way....I would not recomment not paying your taxes unless you can convince MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS to refuse to pay also.

In Thoreau's day, he spent 1 day in jail for not paying taxes. Today, the IRS can squash you like a bug, thus failing to pay taxes is a very ineffective form of civil disobedience today unless masses of people refused all in the same year.

gue_barium

nick1977 wrote:

By the way....I would not recomment not paying your taxes unless you can convince MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS to refuse to pay also.

In Thoreau's day, he spent 1 day in jail for not paying taxes. Today, the IRS can squash you like a bug, thus failing to pay taxes is a very ineffective form of civil disobedience today unless masses of people refused all in the same year.

I got away with it for a few years. I got some threatening letters, but nothing else.

I finally decided to, and was able to pay off the debt a couple of weeks ago.

decides2dream

nick1977 wrote:

By the way....I would not recomment not paying your taxes unless you can convince MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS to refuse to pay also.

In Thoreau's day, he spent 1 day in jail for not paying taxes. Today, the IRS can squash you like a bug, thus failing to pay taxes is a very ineffective form of civil disobedience today unless masses of people refused all in the same year.

well that is why elsewhere i said i would never do so...but another poster listed it as the very first 'suggestion' of things to do to protest the war, which just got me thinking about it. i agree, it would not be wise for an individual, and yes i would think the repercussions would be far worse than simply a night in jail...thus why i REALLY wanted to know if ANYone has actually done so.....and yea, i think if it was a HUGE effort..it could be quite powerful..........but to set it in motion, hmmmmmmm......


and yes, to truly be an act of civil disobedience, i would think it would reuire being OUTSPOKEN as to the fact that you are not paying your taxes and why....otherwise you just look like one of the many deadbeat taxpayers...or those who file late....etc......etc. doesn't have much impact without a public declaration imho.

nick1977

gue_barium wrote:

I got away with it for a few years. I got some threatening letters, but nothing else.

I finally decided to, and was able to pay off the debt a couple of weeks ago.

You were lucky.....Pentalties and interest can kill a person. If you get on a payment plan to pay it off, you can easily accrue more penalities and interest than the underlying tax liability.

But for a tax protest to work, millions of people would have to join together. One person cannot make a difference when it comes to taxes.

decides2dream

nick1977 wrote:

You were lucky.....Pentalties and interest can kill a person. If you get on a payment plan to pay it off, you can easily accrue more penalities and interest than the underlying tax liability.

But for a tax protest to work, millions of people would have to join together. One person cannot make a difference when it comes to taxes.

isn't that the sad truth?
although that can be said for many things...but that does NOT mean we all shouldn't do our small part, b/c collectively....we CAN make a difference if we try, and oftentimes it takes one person, or one small group...to set the ball in motion. however, 'revolutionary' new ideas...i don't know if there are any more to come up with, so we just have to keep working the good/effective ideas we already have...but the patience factor is a difficult one to bear.


anyhoo...yes, pretty much my thinking on the tax issue...otherwise i think we'd see a LOT of high profile outspoken people suggesting it, and i haven't.....so i too believe it's not really 'effective'...but i was/am hoping to learn more from some with any personal experience and/or knowledge. eh well....

nick1977

decides2dream wrote:

isn't that the sad truth?
although that can be said for many things...but that does NOT mean we all shouldn't do our small part, b/c collectively....we CAN make a difference if we try, and oftentimes it takes one person, or one small group...to set the ball in motion. however, 'revolutionary' new ideas...i don't know if there are any more to come up with, so we just have to keep working the good/effective ideas we already have...but the patience factor is a difficult one to bear.


anyhoo...yes, pretty much my thinking on the tax issue...otherwise i think we'd see a LOT of high profile outspoken people suggesting it, and i haven't.....so i too believe it's not really 'effective'...but i was/am hoping to learn more from some with any personal experience and/or knowledge. eh well....

It might be easy to get away with if it were not for the withholdilng system.....that system has effectively made us economic slaves to the government. It makes it VERY difficult to protest and very easy to track taxpayers. So if someone does not pay for a few years and file tax returns, they are flagged, and will then get letters from the IRS who will go out and seize property etc. if your refusal to pay persists.

I do think it is a valid form of protest, but much harder than it used to be, say, in Thoreau's day. I think it would take a HUGE event to get people to not pay their taxes in mass....something so morally repulsive that citizens no longer believe in our government. People are far to apathetic today to convince them to protest by not paying taxes.

I am intersted in this, though. There are things that our government does that I do not agree with, but at what point should a person be civilly disobedient? Looking in our past, I see obvious situations when civil disobedience was proper....slavery, desegregation, etc.

I don't see anything yet in our lifetime that rises to that level. Yes, the government does things with which we disagree....but when should that disagreement compel us to civil disobedience?

decides2dream

nick1977 wrote:

It might be easy to get away with if it were not for the withholdilng system.....that system has effectively made us economic slaves to the government. It makes it VERY difficult to protest and very easy to track taxpayers. So if someone does not pay for a few years and file tax returns, they are flagged, and will then get letters from the IRS who will go out and seize property etc. if your refusal to pay persists.

I do think it is a valid form of protest, but much harder than it used to be, say, in Thoreau's day. I think it would take a HUGE event to get people to not pay their taxes in mass....something so morally repulsive that citizens no longer believe in our government. People are far to apathetic today to convince them to protest by not paying taxes.

I am intersted in this, though. There are things that our government does that I do not agree with, but at what point should a person be civilly disobedient? Looking in our past, I see obvious situations when civil disobedience was proper....slavery, desegregation, etc.

I don't see anything yet in our lifetime that rises to that level. Yes, the government does things with which we disagree....but when should that disagreement compel us to civil disobedience?

yea indeed, i come from a family of small business owners, accountants, etc....so i know all about the IRS and tracking systems.

it's sad to think where we are right now isn't enough for the majority to mobilize b/c they find the current situation morally repugnant.....repulsive.

i think to some extent, apathy does paly a role...and yes, sadder still...none of this is truly *new* in the sense that we HAVE had the civil rights movement, feminism, protesting vietnam, etc, etc......for many of those causes, *fighting back* was brand new...new thoughts/ideas...and now, we seem to only have those ideas to work with. it SHOULD be enough to mobilize, but it does appear in our culture, sometimes information overlaod..conflicting sources....everyone vying in the media for a soundbite...and the average person does know who or what to believe, so it just leaves us in a stalemate. of course, i am generalizing a great deal here, not getting into it all fully...but yes, exactly!...i too am very curious about it all....i'd would love to feel a part of a solution, to participate in real action/change....and now, i feel frustrated with just words to discuss, but no power to influence/change...not for a long while anyway...and the last election was SO disheartening for me, as i am sure for many others...i try to remain an optimist, but there are times in this world ya get very weary, and wonder........yeesh.

anyway, sorry for blathering on...but yes, i would really love to see/know how truly effective civil disobedience is and can be in today's climate....b/c it IS action for an ideal.

surferdude

I think that governments have learned that if they just don't react to the protests, especially no police intervention, that it just peters out. It won't get news covergae. So it requires the protesters to move from mere civil disobediance to, usually, rioters to become the news. That's just how the government wants you to be portrayed as stupid, senseless rioters. The WTO riots are a great case in point. Piloce and government don't react to the protests and acts of civil disobedience but only to the rioting. Any message originally to be found or broadcast is lost in the reporting of the rioting.

decides2dream

surferdude wrote:

I think that governments have learned that if they just don't react to the protests, especially no police intervention, that it just peters out. It won't get news covergae. So it requires the protesters to move from mere civil disobediance to, usually, rioters to become the news. That's just how the government wants you to be portrayed as stupid, senseless rioters. The WTO riots are a great case in point. Piloce and government don't react to the protests and acts of civil disobedience but only to the rioting. Any message originally to be found or broadcast is lost in the reporting of the rioting.

perhaps.......
the media absolutely plays a huge role, both good and bad...and all sides try and 'use' the media to their advantage, such a powerful tool.

i was hoping for more outside of protest, but i don't think there is much else being done in that regard....or, not enough ARE vocal about it to truly know....and thus as nick has mentioned, something like withholding taxes would have a negligible to nil effect without publicity and/or large #s participating.

no matter what, we DO know acts of civil disobedience do work....and it is a very cool/powerful tool at times.

surferdude

decides2dream wrote:

no matter what, we DO know acts of civil disobedience do work....

I think we know civil disobediance did work. I'm not sure if it does anymore. The level of apathy I think is too great to ever garner enough support for a civil disobediance cause for it to work. Look at how much less effective the Vietnam War movement was than the Civil Rights movement. Governments have learned and adopted.

decides2dream

surferdude wrote:

I think we know civil disobediance did work. I'm not sure if it does anymore. The level of apathy I think is too great to ever garner enough support for a civil disobediance cause for it to work. Look at how much less effective the Vietnam War movement was than the Civil Rights movement. Governments have learned and adopted.

yeesh...that's a depressing way to look at it. not saying you're wrong, don't really know with any certainty one way or another. if nothing else, i would have to agree that to some extent it must be true, but i do hope that all the power of it has not completely dissipated....