civil disobedience

decides2dream

another thread got my curious...has anyone here or someone you know, actively participate in a true act of civil disobedience, in protest of our current war, or of any act of our government? witholding federal tax payments, protesting when/where not allowable....chaining/handcuffing oneself to public/government property in protest and being arrested...etc.....etc. i don't know anyone, nor have i done so myself....so it is merely curiosity to learn about the possible effectiveness of such actions, and the possible actions/repercussions of such acts.......


please do share any personal experience and/or stories........

chromiam

they're all in jail without internet access

decides2dream

chromiam wrote:

they're all in jail without internet access

and here i thought the prisions had all the best high-speed internet access. damn.


in all seriousness, i was/am hoping to read some stories..whether true personal experience or those people may know. as i said, someone suggested not paying federal taxes as protest of the war, and it got me thinking how far would i go in protest of something i believe in, what would i be willing to do...and yea, has anyone we actually know done such things?

Heineken Helen

decides2dream wrote:

and here i thought the prisions had all the best high-speed internet access. damn.


in all seriousness, i was/am hoping to read some stories..whether true personal experience or those people may know. as i said, someone suggested not paying federal taxes as protest of the war, and it got me thinking how far would i go in protest of something i believe in, what would i be willing to do...and yea, has anyone we actually know done such things?

Nah, I just bitch and moan all the time... but that's about it. I dunno, don't the FBI have files on everyone who protested in the 70s and stuff... or do I watch way too much tv? If I were American I'd think twice about protesting.

Hitch-Hiker

Heineken Helen wrote:

If I were American I'd think twice about protesting.

That right there is a huge problem. any Americans have this feeling?

Decides2Dream: The best I can do - I know a coupe of people who have gotten hurt (physically) by police while particiapating in completely peaceful protests. Nothing worse as far as I know.

Heineken Helen

Hitch-Hiker wrote:

That right there is a huge problem. any Americans have this feeling?

Well I see it in lots of tv programmes where they pull up files of people who were protesting years ago... now maybe it IS just tv but I've seen it so often there must be some relevance to it? That's pretty fucking ridiculous if it is true.

polaris

yes ... i have/will ...

the range of effectiveness varies - the thing people need to understand is that acts of CD are often a last resort - every organization is prepared to fight the battles in the courts and such but it is hard to win when faced against big money and gov'ts that answer only to big money ...

without public interest in these cases - you can't foster change ... so, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't ... more often then not - something in between happens ...

Jeanwah

I know someone who's gotten arrested a couple times for protesting and creating noise. He just had to pay a fine. And a friend of mine is part of a group in CA that riles up a group of people who are against Mexican immagration. She has a great time messing with people and it's all in good fun, no one's breaking the law, and she is getting her point across.

I believe it's the police that have more of a problem with peaceful protestors than anyone else simply because the lack of police control is there.

http://www.freewayblogger.com/

decides2dream

polaris wrote:

yes ... i have/will ...

the range of effectiveness varies - the thing people need to understand is that acts of CD are often a last resort - every organization is prepared to fight the battles in the courts and such but it is hard to win when faced against big money and gov'ts that answer only to big money ...

without public interest in these cases - you can't foster change ... so, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't ... more often then not - something in between happens ...

good for you!


and sure of course i realize the effectiveness will vary, but it obviously MUST do 'something' often enough, even if simply bring to light to a larger audience thru the media of an important issue. i guess that's why i am curious...b/c sure now and again you see some coverage of protests, and yes they usually are peaceful...and they do freak out the police no matter what b/c large crowds usually do make them feel out of control, etc.

i was just hoping for some real first-hand accounts....possible outcomes...but sure, this is a very small community, especially on the MT....so a very small chance, but hoped maybe at least one story.


anyway, it all reminds me of thoreau...walden pond........not paying taxes, being jailed for such....etc. so yea, i wondered if there was anyone here who followed such a path and what consequences arose from that.


more often than not, it does seem peaceful protests nowadays are allowed to remain as such, which is a GREAT thing, as it should be....but absolutely, sometimes things happen, people get hurt.....and i guess getting arrested/paying a fine....in the scheme of things not a bad thing to make your point.

Abookamongstthemany

decides2dream wrote:

more often than not, it does seem peaceful protests nowadays are allowed to remain as such, which is a GREAT thing, as it should be....but absolutely, sometimes things happen, people get hurt.....and i guess getting arrested/paying a fine....in the scheme of things not a bad thing to make your point.

I agree. Although it has been discussed here into the ground, we have stolen a few recruitment signs from in front of the local high school in the town I'm from. It bothered me to see them preying on young people out of the poorer neighborhood, especially when there aren't many jobs availiable in our area. I think joining the army is often a hasty decision made by those who don't see many other options. And, of course, there were no such signs in front of the local private academy. A few people here strongly disagreed with that I did but I still stand by it (and I really was hesistant to even post about it again because I didn't want to go rounds over this again). I've also taken recruitment pamplets out of the library...came very close to getting caught with that one. I've been to a few protests now but they have all been peaceful with no big disruptions.

Will stealing the signs make a huge difference over all? No, not even close. But, to me, if it made a difference in only one life, keeping one person from being shipped over there and coming back home in a box then it was worth it.

markymark550

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I agree. Although it has been discussed here into the ground, we have stolen a few recruitment signs from in front of the local high school in the town I'm from. It bothered me to see them preying on young people out of the poorer neighborhood, especially when there aren't many jobs availiable in our area. I think joining the army is often a hasty decision made by those who don't see many other options. And, of course, there were no such signs in front of the local private academy. A few people here strongly disagreed with that I did but I still stand by it (and I really was hesistant to even post about it again because I didn't want to go rounds over this again). I've also taken recruitment pamplets out of the library...came very close to getting caught with that one. I've been to a few protests now but they have all been peaceful with no big disruptions.

Will stealing the signs make a huge difference over all? No, not even close. But, to me, if it made a difference in only one life, keeping one person from being shipped over there and coming back home in a box then it was worth it.

taking a big risk there by showing some blue in a red state

baraka

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I agree. Although it has been discussed here into the ground, we have stolen a few recruitment signs from in front of the local high school in the town I'm from.

That pretty funny, abook! What did you do with the signs?

Abookamongstthemany

baraka wrote:

That pretty funny, abook! What did you do with the signs?

I still have them! They are under my bed.

polaris

decides2dream wrote:

good for you!


and sure of course i realize the effectiveness will vary, but it obviously MUST do 'something' often enough, even if simply bring to light to a larger audience thru the media of an important issue. i guess that's why i am curious...b/c sure now and again you see some coverage of protests, and yes they usually are peaceful...and they do freak out the police no matter what b/c large crowds usually do make them feel out of control, etc.

i was just hoping for some real first-hand accounts....possible outcomes...but sure, this is a very small community, especially on the MT....so a very small chance, but hoped maybe at least one story.


anyway, it all reminds me of thoreau...walden pond........not paying taxes, being jailed for such....etc. so yea, i wondered if there was anyone here who followed such a path and what consequences arose from that.


more often than not, it does seem peaceful protests nowadays are allowed to remain as such, which is a GREAT thing, as it should be....but absolutely, sometimes things happen, people get hurt.....and i guess getting arrested/paying a fine....in the scheme of things not a bad thing to make your point.

sorry ... i read NO personal stories ... i've got a few ... but it would take too much typing ...

in the end - it's about getting media exposure and the public to act ... the thing with the media exposure tho is that you are subject to their goals and biases ... the media is often only interested in selling papers - that's why the violence at globalization protests are the only images you see all the while there are thousands of people protesting peacefully without incident ...

surferdude

I don't stop at red lights on my bike, does that count? It's part of my civil disobediance over how badly green form of transportation are supported by cities. I also routinely treat red lights as stop signs late at night, part of my civil disobediance over how badly cities treat the attempt to properly flow traffic in order to reduce pollution. Don't wear a seatbelt as an act of defiance that the government cannot outlaw personal acts of stupidity.

gue_barium

I protest NCFan's constant plagiarism.

nick1977

Check out Henry David Thoreau....he protested the Mexican War and slavery by not paying taxes and spent a night in jail. He then wrote Civil Disobedience. I'm sure you already knew that, but I've been on a Thoreau kick lately and am reading his writings.

I've never participated in civil disobedience, but I do think that there are situations in which I would consider it.

Abookamongstthemany

markymark550 wrote:

taking a big risk there by showing some blue in a red state

haha...didn't see this earlier.

Yeah, I'm such a badass rebel! Seriously though, I have run into a few people here who act completely appalled and disgusted just because I see things differently than what they are used to seeing.

angelica

gue_barium wrote:

I protest NCFan's constant plagiarism.

angelica

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nah, I just bitch and moan all the time... but that's about it. I dunno, don't the FBI have files on everyone who protested in the 70s and stuff... or do I watch way too much tv? If I were American I'd think twice about protesting.

The FBI stuff is true. I've read a lot of true crime books. When the FBI files went public, there was all this stuff published about them monitoring Jane Fonda's, for example, war-protest activities. Maybe they don't watch everybody but I don't think it's a stretch to assume that they keep an eye on those individuals and movements that could threaten "security". Here's some examples of what you might be referring to that were posted on this board last year:

"Early last week, NBC reported the existence of a secret Department of Defense (DOD) database related to "potential terrorist threats." One example of identified "threats" is a group in Lake Worth, Florida that included five Quakers and a 79-year old grandmother who met at their local Quaker meeting house to discuss how to protest military recruiting at an area high school. Other examples of "threatening" events in the database included handing out literature in front of military recruiting stations and commemorating the second anniversary of the Iraq War. "

"The report by NBC News was followed last Friday by a story in the New York Times that President Bush has secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the U.S. without court-approved warrants. The President and the DOD now admit they've been spying on thousands of people in this country for simply exercising their constitutional rights. " http://www.afsc.org/news/2005/government-spying.htm

Abookamongstthemany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

decides2dream

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Will stealing the signs make a huge difference over all? No, not even close. But, to me, if it made a difference in only one life, keeping one person from being shipped over there and coming back home in a box then it was worth it.

ANY tangible act will make a difference...and even one life, is a LIFE...so well done!


in regards to any 'fear' of an fbi file or the like .....honestly, that would be the least of my worries in regards to such actions. i do not fear such, nor am i afraid to speak out, to protest, etc....i do wonder about such acts as denying fed tax payments and such...the repercussions....b/c THAT if done on a grand scale, might actually hit em where it only seems to hurt em...the wallet. thus why i am so curious to any recent personal experience to such. someone posted a link to something about the idea...i looked briefly...but i was looking for more first-hand experience and/or knowledge.


nick...yea, i mentioned thoreau earlier. i have never read any of his work in their enitrty, but many, many long excerpts back in college so yea.....he is quite inspirational.

polaris

damm ... if i need to fall asleep - i'll read thoreau ... i'm all for what he was about but that kind of writing style is dry dry dry ... give me harry potter any day ...

decides2dream

polaris wrote:

damm ... if i need to fall asleep - i'll read thoreau ... i'm all for what he was about but that kind of writing style is dry dry dry ... give me harry potter any day ...

haha....excerpts are best.
i'll skip the harry potter too....neither really my chosen form of reading material, but yea....i digress......

his ideas were/are revolutionary, especially for his time....and truly were one of the first acts of individual civil disobedience...a true model.....whether one agreed with his cause or not, he did much to further the idea.

nick1977

By the way....I would not recomment not paying your taxes unless you can convince MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS to refuse to pay also.

In Thoreau's day, he spent 1 day in jail for not paying taxes. Today, the IRS can squash you like a bug, thus failing to pay taxes is a very ineffective form of civil disobedience today unless masses of people refused all in the same year.

gue_barium

nick1977 wrote:

By the way....I would not recomment not paying your taxes unless you can convince MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS to refuse to pay also.

In Thoreau's day, he spent 1 day in jail for not paying taxes. Today, the IRS can squash you like a bug, thus failing to pay taxes is a very ineffective form of civil disobedience today unless masses of people refused all in the same year.

I got away with it for a few years. I got some threatening letters, but nothing else.

I finally decided to, and was able to pay off the debt a couple of weeks ago.

decides2dream

nick1977 wrote:

By the way....I would not recomment not paying your taxes unless you can convince MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS to refuse to pay also.

In Thoreau's day, he spent 1 day in jail for not paying taxes. Today, the IRS can squash you like a bug, thus failing to pay taxes is a very ineffective form of civil disobedience today unless masses of people refused all in the same year.

well that is why elsewhere i said i would never do so...but another poster listed it as the very first 'suggestion' of things to do to protest the war, which just got me thinking about it. i agree, it would not be wise for an individual, and yes i would think the repercussions would be far worse than simply a night in jail...thus why i REALLY wanted to know if ANYone has actually done so.....and yea, i think if it was a HUGE effort..it could be quite powerful..........but to set it in motion, hmmmmmmm......


and yes, to truly be an act of civil disobedience, i would think it would reuire being OUTSPOKEN as to the fact that you are not paying your taxes and why....otherwise you just look like one of the many deadbeat taxpayers...or those who file late....etc......etc. doesn't have much impact without a public declaration imho.

nick1977

gue_barium wrote:

I got away with it for a few years. I got some threatening letters, but nothing else.

I finally decided to, and was able to pay off the debt a couple of weeks ago.

You were lucky.....Pentalties and interest can kill a person. If you get on a payment plan to pay it off, you can easily accrue more penalities and interest than the underlying tax liability.

But for a tax protest to work, millions of people would have to join together. One person cannot make a difference when it comes to taxes.

decides2dream

nick1977 wrote:

You were lucky.....Pentalties and interest can kill a person. If you get on a payment plan to pay it off, you can easily accrue more penalities and interest than the underlying tax liability.

But for a tax protest to work, millions of people would have to join together. One person cannot make a difference when it comes to taxes.

isn't that the sad truth?
although that can be said for many things...but that does NOT mean we all shouldn't do our small part, b/c collectively....we CAN make a difference if we try, and oftentimes it takes one person, or one small group...to set the ball in motion. however, 'revolutionary' new ideas...i don't know if there are any more to come up with, so we just have to keep working the good/effective ideas we already have...but the patience factor is a difficult one to bear.


anyhoo...yes, pretty much my thinking on the tax issue...otherwise i think we'd see a LOT of high profile outspoken people suggesting it, and i haven't.....so i too believe it's not really 'effective'...but i was/am hoping to learn more from some with any personal experience and/or knowledge. eh well....

nick1977

decides2dream wrote:

isn't that the sad truth?
although that can be said for many things...but that does NOT mean we all shouldn't do our small part, b/c collectively....we CAN make a difference if we try, and oftentimes it takes one person, or one small group...to set the ball in motion. however, 'revolutionary' new ideas...i don't know if there are any more to come up with, so we just have to keep working the good/effective ideas we already have...but the patience factor is a difficult one to bear.


anyhoo...yes, pretty much my thinking on the tax issue...otherwise i think we'd see a LOT of high profile outspoken people suggesting it, and i haven't.....so i too believe it's not really 'effective'...but i was/am hoping to learn more from some with any personal experience and/or knowledge. eh well....

It might be easy to get away with if it were not for the withholdilng system.....that system has effectively made us economic slaves to the government. It makes it VERY difficult to protest and very easy to track taxpayers. So if someone does not pay for a few years and file tax returns, they are flagged, and will then get letters from the IRS who will go out and seize property etc. if your refusal to pay persists.

I do think it is a valid form of protest, but much harder than it used to be, say, in Thoreau's day. I think it would take a HUGE event to get people to not pay their taxes in mass....something so morally repulsive that citizens no longer believe in our government. People are far to apathetic today to convince them to protest by not paying taxes.

I am intersted in this, though. There are things that our government does that I do not agree with, but at what point should a person be civilly disobedient? Looking in our past, I see obvious situations when civil disobedience was proper....slavery, desegregation, etc.

I don't see anything yet in our lifetime that rises to that level. Yes, the government does things with which we disagree....but when should that disagreement compel us to civil disobedience?

decides2dream

nick1977 wrote:

It might be easy to get away with if it were not for the withholdilng system.....that system has effectively made us economic slaves to the government. It makes it VERY difficult to protest and very easy to track taxpayers. So if someone does not pay for a few years and file tax returns, they are flagged, and will then get letters from the IRS who will go out and seize property etc. if your refusal to pay persists.

I do think it is a valid form of protest, but much harder than it used to be, say, in Thoreau's day. I think it would take a HUGE event to get people to not pay their taxes in mass....something so morally repulsive that citizens no longer believe in our government. People are far to apathetic today to convince them to protest by not paying taxes.

I am intersted in this, though. There are things that our government does that I do not agree with, but at what point should a person be civilly disobedient? Looking in our past, I see obvious situations when civil disobedience was proper....slavery, desegregation, etc.

I don't see anything yet in our lifetime that rises to that level. Yes, the government does things with which we disagree....but when should that disagreement compel us to civil disobedience?

yea indeed, i come from a family of small business owners, accountants, etc....so i know all about the IRS and tracking systems.

it's sad to think where we are right now isn't enough for the majority to mobilize b/c they find the current situation morally repugnant.....repulsive.

i think to some extent, apathy does paly a role...and yes, sadder still...none of this is truly *new* in the sense that we HAVE had the civil rights movement, feminism, protesting vietnam, etc, etc......for many of those causes, *fighting back* was brand new...new thoughts/ideas...and now, we seem to only have those ideas to work with. it SHOULD be enough to mobilize, but it does appear in our culture, sometimes information overlaod..conflicting sources....everyone vying in the media for a soundbite...and the average person does know who or what to believe, so it just leaves us in a stalemate. of course, i am generalizing a great deal here, not getting into it all fully...but yes, exactly!...i too am very curious about it all....i'd would love to feel a part of a solution, to participate in real action/change....and now, i feel frustrated with just words to discuss, but no power to influence/change...not for a long while anyway...and the last election was SO disheartening for me, as i am sure for many others...i try to remain an optimist, but there are times in this world ya get very weary, and wonder........yeesh.

anyway, sorry for blathering on...but yes, i would really love to see/know how truly effective civil disobedience is and can be in today's climate....b/c it IS action for an ideal.