obama and mccain...one and the same?

decides2dream

_outlaw wrote:

When people say no difference, it's not that they have the same stances. It's that, in the end, the outcome won't be much different. unfortunately, if you want examples, look at this shitty congress. they've done SOME things, fine, but in the end, how much better has our country really gotten??

i do understand where they come from, but i still disagree...and it IS painting the subject with too bold a brush b/c i firmly believe the outcomes WILL be very different. it IS important to recognize/acknowledges the differences, even if one still disagrees. i think it will be the difference of thousands of lives, for starters.

_outlaw wrote:

The problem is that I think Obama, while he will be better than McCain in certain aspects, clearly is too scared to do anything. Look at him now, dancing like a puppet in front of AIPAC, saying all this bullshit about how tough we have to be with Iran and sanctions, and talking about Afghanistan- people justify it by saying it's politics and he needs votes... well, you'll (I don't mean specifically you) all be saying that for the next 4 years since, if he wins, he's going to want to be re-elected, right?? and afterwards, he can't be too different since he's going to want his democratic party to win in 2016... it's all just a cycle. people find ways to justify everything and hope it turns out fine in the end... but it doesn't.

again, i disagree. however, that is fine. my questions here are all about acknowledging the differences. for me, obama is not too scared and while you may think my views are all 'justifications'...for me, they are true and real and why i think the way i do. i accept the fact that many do not have the same pov or agendas, and thus will make different choices.

_outlaw wrote:

and all of you can sit here and talk shit about Nader, but atleast he fucking stands up for what he believes in, unlike Obama. and at least Nader is TRULY a man of the people, unlike Obama.


Thanks.

and, i do not 'talk shit' of nader, but i do appreciate where you are coming from and i know many do as you say, so i understand your frustration. thing is, and i think for some of us an important distinction - one that always becomes a circular debate - you think nader stands up for what he truly believes in, and that may well be true. for me, i find it easy and convenient to to do so, uncompromising, when you know you won't get elected. and that's where it goes back and forth. bottomline, he's not my candidate. and the rest of your comments there...purely opinion.

i've said it elsewhere, many may find playing the game offensive. fine. but to create change, to actually get to put into action the many things one may believe in...you have to BE a part of the game. you've got to get IN. not saying there is no influence, but to truly CREATE it, you need to be in it. someone already posted it....change comes from within. and we can discuss it ad nauseum and i can appreciate and understands both sides of the equation. for ME...i choose being in the game, working towards the changes i want to see. i want things to happen now. soon. get the ball in motion.

Speakers wrote:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1JSBhI_0at0

i LOVE rage!

fuck

decides2dream wrote:

i do understand where they come from, but i still disagree...and it IS painting the subject with too bold a brush b/c i firmly believe the outcomes WILL be very different. it IS important to recognize/acknowledges the differences, even if one still disagrees. i think it will be the difference of thousands of lives, for starters.

ok. do you mind explaining why you think that?

again, i disagree. however, that is fine. my questions here are all about acknowledging the differences. for me, obama is not too scared and while you may think my views are all 'justifications'...for me, they are true and real and why i think the way i do. i accept the fact that many do not have the same pov or agendas, and thus will make different choices.

and what has obama done to prove he's not too scared?

and, i do not 'talk shit' of nader, but i do appreciate where you are coming from and i know many do as you say, so i understand your frustration. thing is, and i think for some of us an important distinction - one that always becomes a circular debate - you think nader stands up for what he truly believes in, and that may well be true. for me, i find it easy and convenient to to do so, uncompromising, when you know you won't get elected. and that's where it goes back and forth. bottomline, he's not my candidate. and the rest of your comments there...purely opinion.

why is he not your candidate? because he's not willing to give up his beliefs to please the corporations?

i've said it elsewhere, many may find playing the game offensive. fine. but to create change, to actually get to put into action the many things one may believe in...you have to BE a part of the game. you've got to get IN. not saying there is no influence, but to truly CREATE it, you need to be in it. someone already posted it....change comes from within. and we can discuss it ad nauseum and i can appreciate and understands both sides of the equation. for ME...i choose being in the game, working towards the changes i want to see. i want things to happen now. soon. get the ball in motion.

and I ignored that comment because it was a ridiculous point to make. change comes from within?? what about within OURSELVES? why should we make politicians give up their true beliefs to play this "game" just because we won't do anything about it to stop it?? to change the game, you DON'T play it. you CHANGE it.
you choose playing in this ridiculous game? you choose having to give up your beliefs and succumb to the corporations and lobbyist groups rather than to ACTUALLY cause change?

decides2dream

_outlaw wrote:

ok. do you mind explaining why you think that?

i think it's clear....obama will get out of the war long before mccain. that is my belief. i also think he will have more positive effects on the country than mccain for social programs, influence, etc.

_outlaw wrote:

and what has obama done to prove he's not too scared?

and i say what has he done to prove he is scared.

_outlaw wrote:

why is he not your candidate? because he's not willing to give up his beliefs to please the corporations?

not at all. i have expressed my views on nader many times over, and have no desire to rehash it here, again. this thread was meant to be about obama and mccain, and their differences....acknowledging that. if you want to debate obama and nader, go for it. but i don't want to get into here. my reasons are my own.

_outlaw wrote:

and I ignored that comment because it was a ridiculous point to make. change comes from within?? what about within OURSELVES? why should we make politicians give up their true beliefs to play this "game" just because we won't do anything about it to stop it?? to change the game, you DON'T play it. you CHANGE it.
you choose playing in this ridiculous game? you choose having to give up your beliefs and succumb to the corporations and lobbyist groups rather than to ACTUALLY cause change?

and how do you change the game? you get in it and change it. perhaps you see it differently. fair enough. you go about ot your way, i will mine. i am a-ok with that.


we all have to work to change, yes. i use the term 'game'...but i don't see how else to discuss it. campaigning IS a game of sorts. the media coverage, the debates, etc, etc. i do not believe one needs to give up their beliefs to play the game, etc. i want to see results, i want to see some of the things i wish to change direction in this country happen. i will vote for whom i think will help that. it is obvious we view it all differently and i respect that. again...it really wasn't what i was focusing on or interested in here. i think all of 'this' is discussed aplenty in other threads. thus why started a new topic for this. anyhooo...i don't have anything else to add here. hopefully i shall have the benefit of reading other responses that may address my initial question further. it is curious to me, thus why i asked.