Of course they are... the whole bunch of them.. Congress and their salaries, kick backs, and pensions.. Its a club with the power to take what they want. and we still vote for them. They have us arguing between Dem and Rep and they are both on the same fucking team.
i just don't believe it. not of all of em, period. i am thankful i am not so jaded just yet. sure, a lot of em suck...bigtime. however, i still believe many are there b/c they truly do want to make a difference. any segment of the population os going to contain both good and bad people, elected officials are no different there. btw - i think we ALL should be on the 'same fucking team'...meaning, the team who desires to best serve the needs of the american people, and whatever influence we have on the world at large.
i just don't believe it. not of all of em, period. i am thankful i am not so jaded just yet. sure, a lot of em suck...bigtime. however, i still believe many are there b/c they truly do want to make a difference. any segment of the population os going to contain both good and bad people, elected officials are no different there. btw - i think we ALL should be on the 'same fucking team'...meaning, the team who desires to best serve the needs of the american people, and whatever influence we have on the world at large.
of course some people wanna make some difference. Kucinich is one great example. but then you have people like Obama who just "play the game," even when they claim to be "changing it."
of course some people wanna make some difference. Kucinich is one great example. but then you have people like Obama who just "play the game," even when they claim to be "changing it."
obviously, a difference of opinion there. nd just as obviously, it's all good.
my only question in this thread was about viewing the differences, and if there are some who TRULY believe, obama or mccain, it will make NO difference whatsoever if either get elected. it gets said often enough them being the *same*.....and since i disagree with that stance, i asked. that's all.
and even in an earlier post, an article link, posted i guess to prove just how similar they are....included this quote:
"To be sure, a McCain presidency would look far different than an Obama presidency. The two candidates have starkly different approaches to healthcare, Social Security and Supreme Court nominations, among other issues. But this makes it all the more surprising that in many areas the rivals are more or less aligned."
i do not discount some of the similarlites, but i also think them different enough to make an important distinction. and while they both may move a bit more 'centrist' in regards to the war, i still believe obama has the desire to end it a lot more quickly and not so quick to act in regards to starting even more war in the future. an important difference to me. some may not see it like that and fair enough, but i do. they just are not one and the same, and to say so is painting with a very broad brush. i would think very similar to the brush that nader supporters get so tired of; people who say nader has no chance of winning, or throwing their votes away, etc. and i agree, both kind of comments are frustrating to read.
of course some people wanna make some difference. Kucinich is one great example. but then you have people like Obama who just "play the game," even when they claim to be "changing it."
change comes from within.
"You've never been out of college, you don't know what it's like out there. I've worked in the private sector... they expect results." -Ray
obviously, a difference of opinion there. nd just as obviously, it's all good.
my only question in this thread was about viewing the differences, and if there are some who TRULY believe, obama or mccain, it will make NO difference whatsoever if either get elected. it gets said often enough them being the *same*.....and since i disagree with that stance, i asked. that's all.
When people say no difference, it's not that they have the same stances. It's that, in the end, the outcome won't be much different. unfortunately, if you want examples, look at this shitty congress. they've done SOME things, fine, but in the end, how much better has our country really gotten??
and even in an earlier post, an article link, posted i guess to prove just how similar they are....included this quote:
"To be sure, a McCain presidency would look far different than an Obama presidency. The two candidates have starkly different approaches to healthcare, Social Security and Supreme Court nominations, among other issues. But this makes it all the more surprising that in many areas the rivals are more or less aligned."
i do not discount some of the similarlites, but i also think them different enough to make an important distinction. and while they both may move a bit more 'centrist' in regards to the war, i still believe obama has the desire to end it a lot more quickly and not so quick to act in regards to starting even more war in the future. an important difference to me. some may not see it like that and fair enough, but i do. they just are not one and the same, and to say so is painting with a very broad brush.
The problem is that I think Obama, while he will be better than McCain in certain aspects, clearly is too scared to do anything. Look at him now, dancing like a puppet in front of AIPAC, saying all this bullshit about how tough we have to be with Iran and sanctions, and talking about Afghanistan- people justify it by saying it's politics and he needs votes... well, you'll (I don't mean specifically you) all be saying that for the next 4 years since, if he wins, he's going to want to be re-elected, right?? and afterwards, he can't be too different since he's going to want his democratic party to win in 2016... it's all just a cycle. people find ways to justify everything and hope it turns out fine in the end... but it doesn't.
and all of you can sit here and talk shit about Nader, but atleast he fucking stands up for what he believes in, unlike Obama. and atleast Nader is TRULY a man of the people, unlike Obama.
i would think very similar to the brush that nader supporters get so tired of; people who say nader has no chance of winning, or throwing their votes away, etc. and i agree, both kind of comments are frustrating to read.
and all of you can sit here and talk shit about Nader, but atleast he fucking stands up for what he believes in, unlike Obama. and atleast Nader is TRULY a man of the people, unlike Obama.
he is? last i heard, his stock portfolio had some serious corporate heavyweights. of course, he won't reveal any information about his finances now...
"You've never been out of college, you don't know what it's like out there. I've worked in the private sector... they expect results." -Ray
he is? last i heard, his stock portfolio had some serious corporate heavyweights. of course, he won't reveal any information about his finances now...
this issue was discussed several times on this board, and that ridiculous point has been proven to be a lie. feel free to keep using that to justify your vote for obama though.
If you fail to recognize the two other branches of government and the Constitution as the Bush Administration has for the past 7.5 years then yes the Executive branch is very powerful.
i agree with this statement. except it was more liek 6.5 years not 7.5 years
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
this issue was discussed several times on this board, and that ridiculous point has been proven to be a lie. feel free to keep using that to justify your vote for obama though.
i justify my vote by recognizing that the last time i voted for nader, it put a man in office who has absolutely destroyed this country in 8 years and started 2 wars, one which was unfinished and unsuccessful, the other which was an unnecessary travesty of everything this country stands for. he wrecked our economy, wiped out the middle class for the expense of the privileged and wealthy, and trampled upon the constitution. i see one candidate who could very likely continue in the same vein, another who will work hard to set the country back on the right course, and another who will pull a 180 with disastrous results. i do not need nader's own shortcomings to vote for obama. all i need is his inadequate policy stances and obama's intelligent and nuanced ones.
"You've never been out of college, you don't know what it's like out there. I've worked in the private sector... they expect results." -Ray
my question is though, does one truly believe there won't be sany difference in office with either candidate? similarities or not, i think their differences are significant enough that there would be very different outcomes with either as president. of course, that's just imo.
i never understood people who thought THAt either, at all. i thought they were sooooooo different, and voted accordingly. however, that's my point....and i just don't get it.
and yes, that's my thought exactly.
i think they would both make very different presidents, and have very different influence on our country, the world.
When people say no difference, it's not that they have the same stances. It's that, in the end, the outcome won't be much different. unfortunately, if you want examples, look at this shitty congress. they've done SOME things, fine, but in the end, how much better has our country really gotten??
i do understand where they come from, but i still disagree...and it IS painting the subject with too bold a brush b/c i firmly believe the outcomes WILL be very different. it IS important to recognize/acknowledges the differences, even if one still disagrees. i think it will be the difference of thousands of lives, for starters.
The problem is that I think Obama, while he will be better than McCain in certain aspects, clearly is too scared to do anything. Look at him now, dancing like a puppet in front of AIPAC, saying all this bullshit about how tough we have to be with Iran and sanctions, and talking about Afghanistan- people justify it by saying it's politics and he needs votes... well, you'll (I don't mean specifically you) all be saying that for the next 4 years since, if he wins, he's going to want to be re-elected, right?? and afterwards, he can't be too different since he's going to want his democratic party to win in 2016... it's all just a cycle. people find ways to justify everything and hope it turns out fine in the end... but it doesn't.
again, i disagree. however, that is fine. my questions here are all about acknowledging the differences. for me, obama is not too scared and while you may think my views are all 'justifications'...for me, they are true and real and why i think the way i do. i accept the fact that many do not have the same pov or agendas, and thus will make different choices.
and all of you can sit here and talk shit about Nader, but atleast he fucking stands up for what he believes in, unlike Obama. and at least Nader is TRULY a man of the people, unlike Obama.
Thanks.
and, i do not 'talk shit' of nader, but i do appreciate where you are coming from and i know many do as you say, so i understand your frustration. thing is, and i think for some of us an important distinction - one that always becomes a circular debate - you think nader stands up for what he truly believes in, and that may well be true. for me, i find it easy and convenient to to do so, uncompromising, when you know you won't get elected. and that's where it goes back and forth. bottomline, he's not my candidate. and the rest of your comments there...purely opinion.
i've said it elsewhere, many may find playing the game offensive. fine. but to create change, to actually get to put into action the many things one may believe in...you have to BE a part of the game. you've got to get IN. not saying there is no influence, but to truly CREATE it, you need to be in it. someone already posted it....change comes from within. and we can discuss it ad nauseum and i can appreciate and understands both sides of the equation. for ME...i choose being in the game, working towards the changes i want to see. i want things to happen now. soon. get the ball in motion.
i do understand where they come from, but i still disagree...and it IS painting the subject with too bold a brush b/c i firmly believe the outcomes WILL be very different. it IS important to recognize/acknowledges the differences, even if one still disagrees. i think it will be the difference of thousands of lives, for starters.
ok. do you mind explaining why you think that?
again, i disagree. however, that is fine. my questions here are all about acknowledging the differences. for me, obama is not too scared and while you may think my views are all 'justifications'...for me, they are true and real and why i think the way i do. i accept the fact that many do not have the same pov or agendas, and thus will make different choices.
and what has obama done to prove he's not too scared?
and, i do not 'talk shit' of nader, but i do appreciate where you are coming from and i know many do as you say, so i understand your frustration. thing is, and i think for some of us an important distinction - one that always becomes a circular debate - you think nader stands up for what he truly believes in, and that may well be true. for me, i find it easy and convenient to to do so, uncompromising, when you know you won't get elected. and that's where it goes back and forth. bottomline, he's not my candidate. and the rest of your comments there...purely opinion.
why is he not your candidate? because he's not willing to give up his beliefs to please the corporations?
i've said it elsewhere, many may find playing the game offensive. fine. but to create change, to actually get to put into action the many things one may believe in...you have to BE a part of the game. you've got to get IN. not saying there is no influence, but to truly CREATE it, you need to be in it. someone already posted it....change comes from within. and we can discuss it ad nauseum and i can appreciate and understands both sides of the equation. for ME...i choose being in the game, working towards the changes i want to see. i want things to happen now. soon. get the ball in motion.
and I ignored that comment because it was a ridiculous point to make. change comes from within?? what about within OURSELVES? why should we make politicians give up their true beliefs to play this "game" just because we won't do anything about it to stop it?? to change the game, you DON'T play it. you CHANGE it.
you choose playing in this ridiculous game? you choose having to give up your beliefs and succumb to the corporations and lobbyist groups rather than to ACTUALLY cause change?
i think it's clear....obama will get out of the war long before mccain. that is my belief. i also think he will have more positive effects on the country than mccain for social programs, influence, etc.
why is he not your candidate? because he's not willing to give up his beliefs to please the corporations?
not at all. i have expressed my views on nader many times over, and have no desire to rehash it here, again. this thread was meant to be about obama and mccain, and their differences....acknowledging that. if you want to debate obama and nader, go for it. but i don't want to get into here. my reasons are my own.
and I ignored that comment because it was a ridiculous point to make. change comes from within?? what about within OURSELVES? why should we make politicians give up their true beliefs to play this "game" just because we won't do anything about it to stop it?? to change the game, you DON'T play it. you CHANGE it.
you choose playing in this ridiculous game? you choose having to give up your beliefs and succumb to the corporations and lobbyist groups rather than to ACTUALLY cause change?
and how do you change the game? you get in it and change it. perhaps you see it differently. fair enough. you go about ot your way, i will mine. i am a-ok with that.
we all have to work to change, yes. i use the term 'game'...but i don't see how else to discuss it. campaigning IS a game of sorts. the media coverage, the debates, etc, etc. i do not believe one needs to give up their beliefs to play the game, etc. i want to see results, i want to see some of the things i wish to change direction in this country happen. i will vote for whom i think will help that. it is obvious we view it all differently and i respect that. again...it really wasn't what i was focusing on or interested in here. i think all of 'this' is discussed aplenty in other threads. thus why started a new topic for this. anyhooo...i don't have anything else to add here. hopefully i shall have the benefit of reading other responses that may address my initial question further. it is curious to me, thus why i asked.
Comments
thank you, that's all i ask. recognize the differences, even if you like neither.
and...
i just don't believe it. not of all of em, period. i am thankful i am not so jaded just yet. sure, a lot of em suck...bigtime. however, i still believe many are there b/c they truly do want to make a difference. any segment of the population os going to contain both good and bad people, elected officials are no different there. btw - i think we ALL should be on the 'same fucking team'...meaning, the team who desires to best serve the needs of the american people, and whatever influence we have on the world at large.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
obviously, a difference of opinion there. nd just as obviously, it's all good.
my only question in this thread was about viewing the differences, and if there are some who TRULY believe, obama or mccain, it will make NO difference whatsoever if either get elected. it gets said often enough them being the *same*.....and since i disagree with that stance, i asked. that's all.
and even in an earlier post, an article link, posted i guess to prove just how similar they are....included this quote:
"To be sure, a McCain presidency would look far different than an Obama presidency. The two candidates have starkly different approaches to healthcare, Social Security and Supreme Court nominations, among other issues. But this makes it all the more surprising that in many areas the rivals are more or less aligned."
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-centrists13-2008jul13,0,6980359,full.story
i do not discount some of the similarlites, but i also think them different enough to make an important distinction. and while they both may move a bit more 'centrist' in regards to the war, i still believe obama has the desire to end it a lot more quickly and not so quick to act in regards to starting even more war in the future. an important difference to me. some may not see it like that and fair enough, but i do. they just are not one and the same, and to say so is painting with a very broad brush. i would think very similar to the brush that nader supporters get so tired of; people who say nader has no chance of winning, or throwing their votes away, etc. and i agree, both kind of comments are frustrating to read.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
change comes from within.
Denny Crane!
Good article.
The problem is that I think Obama, while he will be better than McCain in certain aspects, clearly is too scared to do anything. Look at him now, dancing like a puppet in front of AIPAC, saying all this bullshit about how tough we have to be with Iran and sanctions, and talking about Afghanistan- people justify it by saying it's politics and he needs votes... well, you'll (I don't mean specifically you) all be saying that for the next 4 years since, if he wins, he's going to want to be re-elected, right?? and afterwards, he can't be too different since he's going to want his democratic party to win in 2016... it's all just a cycle. people find ways to justify everything and hope it turns out fine in the end... but it doesn't.
and all of you can sit here and talk shit about Nader, but atleast he fucking stands up for what he believes in, unlike Obama. and atleast Nader is TRULY a man of the people, unlike Obama.
Thanks.
he is? last i heard, his stock portfolio had some serious corporate heavyweights. of course, he won't reveal any information about his finances now...
Denny Crane!
i agree with this statement. except it was more liek 6.5 years not 7.5 years
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
i justify my vote by recognizing that the last time i voted for nader, it put a man in office who has absolutely destroyed this country in 8 years and started 2 wars, one which was unfinished and unsuccessful, the other which was an unnecessary travesty of everything this country stands for. he wrecked our economy, wiped out the middle class for the expense of the privileged and wealthy, and trampled upon the constitution. i see one candidate who could very likely continue in the same vein, another who will work hard to set the country back on the right course, and another who will pull a 180 with disastrous results. i do not need nader's own shortcomings to vote for obama. all i need is his inadequate policy stances and obama's intelligent and nuanced ones.
Denny Crane!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1JSBhI_0at0
i do understand where they come from, but i still disagree...and it IS painting the subject with too bold a brush b/c i firmly believe the outcomes WILL be very different. it IS important to recognize/acknowledges the differences, even if one still disagrees. i think it will be the difference of thousands of lives, for starters.
again, i disagree. however, that is fine. my questions here are all about acknowledging the differences. for me, obama is not too scared and while you may think my views are all 'justifications'...for me, they are true and real and why i think the way i do. i accept the fact that many do not have the same pov or agendas, and thus will make different choices.
and, i do not 'talk shit' of nader, but i do appreciate where you are coming from and i know many do as you say, so i understand your frustration. thing is, and i think for some of us an important distinction - one that always becomes a circular debate - you think nader stands up for what he truly believes in, and that may well be true. for me, i find it easy and convenient to to do so, uncompromising, when you know you won't get elected. and that's where it goes back and forth. bottomline, he's not my candidate. and the rest of your comments there...purely opinion.
i've said it elsewhere, many may find playing the game offensive. fine. but to create change, to actually get to put into action the many things one may believe in...you have to BE a part of the game. you've got to get IN. not saying there is no influence, but to truly CREATE it, you need to be in it. someone already posted it....change comes from within. and we can discuss it ad nauseum and i can appreciate and understands both sides of the equation. for ME...i choose being in the game, working towards the changes i want to see. i want things to happen now. soon. get the ball in motion.
i LOVE rage!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
and what has obama done to prove he's not too scared?
why is he not your candidate? because he's not willing to give up his beliefs to please the corporations?
and I ignored that comment because it was a ridiculous point to make. change comes from within?? what about within OURSELVES? why should we make politicians give up their true beliefs to play this "game" just because we won't do anything about it to stop it?? to change the game, you DON'T play it. you CHANGE it.
you choose playing in this ridiculous game? you choose having to give up your beliefs and succumb to the corporations and lobbyist groups rather than to ACTUALLY cause change?
i think it's clear....obama will get out of the war long before mccain. that is my belief. i also think he will have more positive effects on the country than mccain for social programs, influence, etc.
and i say what has he done to prove he is scared.
not at all. i have expressed my views on nader many times over, and have no desire to rehash it here, again. this thread was meant to be about obama and mccain, and their differences....acknowledging that. if you want to debate obama and nader, go for it. but i don't want to get into here. my reasons are my own.
and how do you change the game? you get in it and change it. perhaps you see it differently. fair enough. you go about ot your way, i will mine. i am a-ok with that.
we all have to work to change, yes. i use the term 'game'...but i don't see how else to discuss it. campaigning IS a game of sorts. the media coverage, the debates, etc, etc. i do not believe one needs to give up their beliefs to play the game, etc. i want to see results, i want to see some of the things i wish to change direction in this country happen. i will vote for whom i think will help that. it is obvious we view it all differently and i respect that. again...it really wasn't what i was focusing on or interested in here. i think all of 'this' is discussed aplenty in other threads. thus why started a new topic for this. anyhooo...i don't have anything else to add here. hopefully i shall have the benefit of reading other responses that may address my initial question further. it is curious to me, thus why i asked.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow