McCain Health Plan would strip millions of coverage

know1

Commy wrote:

Yeah, lets have a health care system where individuals pay for it. WHy shouldn't we make a profit from human lives?

Universal Heatlh Care is very easily attainable, especially in the US. Meanmwhile we are ranked outside of Nambia and some other third world countires.

What do we say about the families that couldn't afford to save their daughters and sons, here in this 'free' country.

The individuals pay for it whether it's the current system, UHC, or free market. There's not some benevolent God sprinkling healthcare down for free upon the masses.

know1

Commy wrote:

The motivation for new medical technologies is profit at this point. That could/should change.

Blanket statements are almost always inaccurate to some degree

(oops - did I just make a blanket statement? )

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

I do. But the question isn't being posed about what I value. The question is about what "the public" values. Should I assume my values onto "the public"?

So you think there's a good number of citizens who don't find value in helping others? Is this common? Rare?

If we took a poll, I don't think that opinion would be a very popular choice.

baraka

The one thing that concerned me the most from the original article was this statement, 'McCain wants to abolish the regulations that currently exist in most states that require companies to insure people with pre-existing conditions, provide benefits that don't exclude some medical conditions, and prevent them from charging huge premiums for crumby benefits.'

Anyone else concerned about this?

polaris

farfromglorified wrote:

I certainly don't want to be dead, no. But if you're asking me if I'd be ok with society leaving me for dead in the event that I opted out of providing society any value in exchange for helping me, I would certainly be ok with their decision.

i honestly respect your position on this ... i guess the dilemma then is that if those that decided to partake in the system help you - you find yourself grateful for something you don't believe in or on the other hand dead ...

farfromglorified

Commy wrote:

Sending doctors to Africa has somehow become casual in your world. Yeah, lets forget about the less fortunate and focus on our selves, selfishness reigns apparently.

If you could focus for a second, pretend you are a member of the human race- not american, not african, but a member of the human race-you would send your doctors where they are needed most. In this case its Africa-where millions are dying form easily curable diseases and starvation.

I'm quite aware of this, thanks. The fact of the matter is that the Cuban doctors working in Africa are not having any measurable impact in that country compared to what US doctors, NGOs, government aid, and countless other American and other international efforts are having. Again, I'm not impugning Cuban aid to Africa. I'm simply laughing at those who will celebrate Cuba for this and damn America as if America isn't doing anything about it. American expertise and resources are having more positive effects in a day in Africa than Cuba is going to have in the next decade.

Doctors shiould be where they are needed most.

Ok. So where doctors want to be is irrelevent? And every doctor in the US, Cuba, and everywhere else should be sent to sub-Sarahan Africa and SE Asia? That's quite the proposal you have there.

Given little fact here I can't agree with any of it. Your opinion is interesting, but not the way it works. Slavery and the crusades benefited the minority, the few in charge, as its always been. So it goes.

Slavery and the crusades benefitted all sorts of people! They look great so long as you can ignore the bloodshed and horrible injustice. The idea that these thing only benefited the few is ridiculous and is evidenced by the millions who supported these things.

Again your opinion with little fact. From what I"ve seen of France's health care system it is very thorough.

France's system is the ultimate UHC example. Yet they still do not cover everyone (300,000 without coverage), they have nearly the highest tax burden in the world (50% GDP) and copayment rates are high (10-40%), they're constantly scrambing to import doctors (even to the point that Doctors Without Borders has sent staff to France to cover shortages), and their healthcare industry suffers from little direct investment in technology. The only thing France is largely immune from in my examples is rationing and wait times and that's because the high copayments (something your 'free ride' ideology wouldn't allow for) temper demand. Finally, despite the high taxes and high copayment rates, they still run a deficit of about $20,000,000,000 / year.

With the resources available to the US they should rank below us. THat's no accomplishment. THat's like taking credit for something your supposed to be doing anyway. "I take care of my kids". No shit dumbass, your suppposed too.

What??? France taxes people at twice the rate that we do and forces everyone into their system. If they ranked below us, it would be a shock.

And paying to live doesn't seem to be working.

:rolleyes:

Life itself is a payment. Go ahead and sit there. Do nothing. Don't eat, don't breath, don't act in anyway and see how not paying to live works.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

So you think there's a good number of citizens who don't find value in helping others? Is this common? Rare?

If we took a poll, I don't think that opinion would be a very popular choice.

If you took a poll, it would be very popular. If you actually examined what people do, it wouldn't be that popular.

This is beside the point, however. All I'm saying is that I have no right to force "the public" to help me. If they find a value in helping me and choose to do so, lucky me. If not, that's their choice and I have absolutely no right to demand otherwise.

Commy

farfromglorified wrote:

I'm quite aware of this, thanks. The fact of the matter is that the Cuban doctors working in Africa are not having any measurable impact in that country compared to what US doctors, NGOs, government aid, and countless other American and other international efforts are having. Again, I'm not impugning Cuban aid to Africa. I'm simply laughing at those who will celebrate Cuba for this and damn America as if America isn't doing anything about it. American expertise and resources are having more positive effects in a day in Africa than Cuba is going to have in the next decade.



Ok. So where doctors want to be is irrelevent? And every doctor in the US, Cuba, and everywhere else should be sent to sub-Sarahan Africa and SE Asia? That's quite the proposal you have there.

Depends on what your motivation is. Is it the human race that you want to support? or is it your own personal gain?

Slavery and the crusades benefitted all sorts of people! They look great so long as you can ignore the bloodshed and horrible injustice. The idea that these thing only benefited the few is ridiculous and is evidenced by the millions who supported these things.

It is hard for me to believe that those grunts doing the dirty work, all the killing, were so pro-christianity. You may be right.

France's system is the ultimate UHC example. Yet they still do not cover everyone (300,000 without coverage), they have nearly the highest tax burden in the world (50% GDP) and copayment rates are high (10-40%), they're constantly scrambing to import doctors (even to the point that Doctors Without Borders has sent staff to France to cover shortages), and their healthcare industry suffers from little direct investment in technology. The only thing France is largely immune from in my examples is rationing and wait times and that's because the high copayments (something your 'free ride' ideology wouldn't allow for) temper demand. Finally, despite the high taxes and high copayment rates, they still run a deficit of about $20,000,000,000 / year.

300,000 out of 64.5 million people? That seems to be a very good system, based on the numbers, especially when compared to the United States. Granted they pay taxes, plenty of taxes, but I think the general feeling is that those who need the coverage are deserving. They are ok with paying so many taxes.

What??? France taxes people at twice the rate that we do and forces everyone into their system. If they ranked below us, it would be a shock.


Life itself is a payment. Go ahead and sit there. Do nothing. Don't eat, don't breath, don't act in anyway and see how not paying to live works.

I was talking about Cuba, as you know. France ranks above us, with less resources to draw on, a crime given the context.

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

If you took a poll, it would be very popular. If you actually examined what people do, it wouldn't be that popular.

This is beside the point, however. All I'm saying is that I have no right to force "the public" to help me. If they find a value in helping me and choose to do so, lucky me. If not, that's their choice and I have absolutely no right to demand otherwise.

So where do you draw the line when demanding that society follow certain codes? Isn't leaving someone to die the same as harming them? In my eyes it is.