Yet Cuba has more trained doctors operating around the world than the US.
Are you suggesting that US doctors should be forced to work in foreign countries against their will and at the expense of US patients?
Regardless, you laud Cuba's UHC system and then chastize the US's health rankings, even though Cuba trails the US in those rankings.
Yeah, and in each case the authority involved the minority making decisions for the majority.
What? In each case, you have large populations (whites and religious zealots) pushing their values on smaller populations (blacks and heretics / infidels).
UHC will be no different. You'll have a majority pushing their values and their responsibilities onto the wealthy or onto those who simply don't wish to be part of the system.
Are you suggesting that US doctors should be forced to work in foreign countries against their will and at the expense of US patients?
Regardless, you laud Cuba's UHC system and then chastize the US's health rankings, even though Cuba trails the US in those rankings.
Given Cuba's standing in the HC rankings, and their resources, it is hard to imagine helping others at that stage, yet they do, and do it better than any other country on the planet. Internally they need some wrok, granted.
What? In each case, you have large populations (whites and religious zealots) pushing their values on smaller populations (blacks and heretics / infidels).
UHC will be no different. You'll have a majority pushing their values and their responsibilities onto the wealthy or onto those who simply don't wish to be part of the system.
In each case you have the minority in charge-the church, the market, deciding the course of action for the majority-the crusades, slavery. You think the majority of people involved in the crusades or slavery benefitted from those things?
UHC works in France. It works in many countries. And it can work in the US too.
Given Cuba's standing in the HC rankings, and their resources, it is hard to imagine helping others at that stage, yet they do, and do it better than any other country on the planet. Internally they need some wrok, granted.
They don't "do it better" than any other country on the planet. They do it rather terribly. Sending a bunch of poorly trained doctors around the world to give immunizations and basic medical services is certainly nice, but it's not high-end medicine they're practicing and many of the doctors are actually very poorly trained. Furthermore, your above statement seems to imply that their international work and their internal work are somehow unrelated and that these international campaigns aren't in part causing the shortages within their nation.
Oh, and you didn't answer my question so I'll repeat it:
Are you suggesting that US doctors should be forced to work in foreign countries against their will and at the expense of US patients?
In each case you have the minority in charge-the church, the market, deciding the course of action for the majority-the crusades, slavery.
Hehe..."the church" is not a minority. "The church" is an organization. It is an organization full of many people. Same goes for the "market". You can't reduce a majority to a minority by assigning them one name.
You think the majority of people involved in the crusades or slavery benefitted from those things?
They benefited in the sense that they forced other people to bend to their will. I'm sure the crusades made many people feel absolutely safe and wonderful about their silly convictions. I'm sure slavery provided a lot of cheap clothing to people who wanted it. I'm sure suicide bombers are very satisfied with their afterlife. These "benefits" are irrelevant to the morality of their means.
UHC works in France. It works in many countries. And it can work in the US too.
How does it "work"? People there are denied coverage. They often overpay for medicine via high tax burdens. They have aenemic health industries. They have to import lots of doctors. There is often rationing and long waits. This is not to say that the US's current system doesn't have these same problems (it certainly does), but I don't understand why people chastise the US system based on these problems and then celebrate UHC systems even though they suffer from the same problems.
Furthermore, people seem to always imply that UHC works everywhere that has it. It doesn't. Plenty of nations with UHC rank behind the US in nearly every health index.
Certainly UHC could "work" here. The problem is that few people seem to have any actual definition of work.
I certainly don't want to be dead, no. But if you're asking me if I'd be ok with society leaving me for dead in the event that I opted out of providing society any value in exchange for helping me, I would certainly be ok with their decision.
I certainly don't want to be dead, no. But if you're asking me if I'd be ok with society leaving me for dead in the event that I opted out of providing society any value in exchange for helping me, I would certainly be ok with their decision.
I think that value comes in helping someone. I guess you don't.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
health professionals in single payer systems in europe are doing just fine...
Yeah, I work for a US socialized health care system, the Department for Veteran Affairs, and I get paid significantly more there than I did at any of my other comparable positions in other health care systems. We are currently growing our lab and as a result needed more Chemists, Microbiologists, Cytotechnologists, & Histotechnologists. We got one of the best Pathologists in the area to come work for us. We had no problem 'stealing' them from the other health care systems in the area. And, uh, our benefits are far superior.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
They don't "do it better" than any other country on the planet. They do it rather terribly. Sending a bunch of poorly trained doctors around the world to give immunizations and basic medical services is certainly nice, but it's not high-end medicine they're practicing and many of the doctors are actually very poorly trained. Furthermore, your above statement seems to imply that their international work and their internal work are somehow unrelated and that these international campaigns aren't in part causing the shortages within their nation.
Sending doctors to Africa has somehow become casual in your world. Yeah, lets forget about the less fortunate and focus on our selves, selfishness reigns apparently.
If you could focus for a second, pretend you are a member of the human race- not american, not african, but a member of the human race-you would send your doctors where they are needed most. In this case its Africa-where millions are dying form easily curable diseases and starvation.
Oh, and you didn't answer my question so I'll repeat it:
Are you suggesting that US doctors should be forced to work in foreign countries against their will and at the expense of US patients?
Doctors shiould be where they are needed most.
Hehe..."the church" is not a minority. "The church" is an organization. It is an organization full of many people. Same goes for the "market". You can't reduce a majority to a minority by assigning them one name.
They benefited in the sense that they forced other people to bend to their will. I'm sure the crusades made many people feel absolutely safe and wonderful about their silly convictions. I'm sure slavery provided a lot of cheap clothing to people who wanted it. I'm sure suicide bombers are very satisfied with their afterlife. These "benefits" are irrelevant to the morality of their means.
Given little fact here I can't agree with any of it. Your opinion is interesting, but not the way it works. Slavery and the crusades benefited the minority, the few in charge, as its always been. So it goes.
How does it "work"? People there are denied coverage. They often overpay for medicine via high tax burdens. They have aenemic health industries. They have to import lots of doctors. There is often rationing and long waits. This is not to say that the US's current system doesn't have these same problems (it certainly does), but I don't understand why people chastise the US system based on these problems and then celebrate UHC systems even though they suffer from the same problems.
Again your opinion with little fact. From what I"ve seen of France's health care system it is very thorough.
Furthermore, people seem to always imply that UHC works everywhere that has it. It doesn't. Plenty of nations with UHC rank behind the US in nearly every health index.
With the resources available to the US they should rank below us. THat's no accomplishment. THat's like taking credit for something your supposed to be doing anyway. "I take care of my kids". No shit dumbass, your suppposed too.
Certainly UHC could "work" here. The problem is that few people seem to have any actual definition of work.
right, so whats your point? doctors are still making more then enough in single payer systems...people are not working for free in health care fields in single payer systems... so whats your point about putting food on the table?
Well considering almost 25% of our physicians are from outside the US who have come to America to practice for better training and higher salaries, switching to a system in which doctors receive lower salaries than they receive now would mean less doctors in America.
Part of the reason for the wait times in Canada to see a doctor is that 1/9 Canadian doctors who graduate medical school there practice in America because they make more money.
Having lower paid doctors would at first cause a shortage of doctors as we would lose many foreign doctors and many would stop practicing because of rising malpractice insurance costs.
Then you have the problem I learned about in college firsthand. Many of my friends who were pre-med said that if the US ever went to universal healthcare they would just go to the white collar Wall Street route because it wasn't worth paying for 10 years of school to not be rewarded in the end. So instead of getting the most brilliant minds going into medicine you would get lesser doctors. Of course this might be an isolated scenario because I went to an Ivy League school with a top notch business program, but still the loss of even a few potential quality doctors is a loss to a great many Americans.
I think that value comes in helping someone. I guess you don't.
I do. But the question isn't being posed about what I value. The question is about what "the public" values. Should I assume my values onto "the public"?
Yeah, lets have a health care system where individuals pay for it. WHy shouldn't we make a profit from human lives?
Universal Heatlh Care is very easily attainable, especially in the US. Meanmwhile we are ranked outside of Nambia and some other third world countires.
What do we say about the families that couldn't afford to save their daughters and sons, here in this 'free' country.
The individuals pay for it whether it's the current system, UHC, or free market. There's not some benevolent God sprinkling healthcare down for free upon the masses.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I do. But the question isn't being posed about what I value. The question is about what "the public" values. Should I assume my values onto "the public"?
So you think there's a good number of citizens who don't find value in helping others? Is this common? Rare?
If we took a poll, I don't think that opinion would be a very popular choice.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The one thing that concerned me the most from the original article was this statement, 'McCain wants to abolish the regulations that currently exist in most states that require companies to insure people with pre-existing conditions, provide benefits that don't exclude some medical conditions, and prevent them from charging huge premiums for crumby benefits.'
Anyone else concerned about this?
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I certainly don't want to be dead, no. But if you're asking me if I'd be ok with society leaving me for dead in the event that I opted out of providing society any value in exchange for helping me, I would certainly be ok with their decision.
i honestly respect your position on this ... i guess the dilemma then is that if those that decided to partake in the system help you - you find yourself grateful for something you don't believe in or on the other hand dead ...
Sending doctors to Africa has somehow become casual in your world. Yeah, lets forget about the less fortunate and focus on our selves, selfishness reigns apparently.
If you could focus for a second, pretend you are a member of the human race- not american, not african, but a member of the human race-you would send your doctors where they are needed most. In this case its Africa-where millions are dying form easily curable diseases and starvation.
I'm quite aware of this, thanks. The fact of the matter is that the Cuban doctors working in Africa are not having any measurable impact in that country compared to what US doctors, NGOs, government aid, and countless other American and other international efforts are having. Again, I'm not impugning Cuban aid to Africa. I'm simply laughing at those who will celebrate Cuba for this and damn America as if America isn't doing anything about it. American expertise and resources are having more positive effects in a day in Africa than Cuba is going to have in the next decade.
Doctors shiould be where they are needed most.
Ok. So where doctors want to be is irrelevent? And every doctor in the US, Cuba, and everywhere else should be sent to sub-Sarahan Africa and SE Asia? That's quite the proposal you have there.
Given little fact here I can't agree with any of it. Your opinion is interesting, but not the way it works. Slavery and the crusades benefited the minority, the few in charge, as its always been. So it goes.
Slavery and the crusades benefitted all sorts of people! They look great so long as you can ignore the bloodshed and horrible injustice. The idea that these thing only benefited the few is ridiculous and is evidenced by the millions who supported these things.
Again your opinion with little fact. From what I"ve seen of France's health care system it is very thorough.
France's system is the ultimate UHC example. Yet they still do not cover everyone (300,000 without coverage), they have nearly the highest tax burden in the world (50% GDP) and copayment rates are high (10-40%), they're constantly scrambing to import doctors (even to the point that Doctors Without Borders has sent staff to France to cover shortages), and their healthcare industry suffers from little direct investment in technology. The only thing France is largely immune from in my examples is rationing and wait times and that's because the high copayments (something your 'free ride' ideology wouldn't allow for) temper demand. Finally, despite the high taxes and high copayment rates, they still run a deficit of about $20,000,000,000 / year.
With the resources available to the US they should rank below us. THat's no accomplishment. THat's like taking credit for something your supposed to be doing anyway. "I take care of my kids". No shit dumbass, your suppposed too.
What??? France taxes people at twice the rate that we do and forces everyone into their system. If they ranked below us, it would be a shock.
And paying to live doesn't seem to be working.
:rolleyes:
Life itself is a payment. Go ahead and sit there. Do nothing. Don't eat, don't breath, don't act in anyway and see how not paying to live works.
So you think there's a good number of citizens who don't find value in helping others? Is this common? Rare?
If we took a poll, I don't think that opinion would be a very popular choice.
If you took a poll, it would be very popular. If you actually examined what people do, it wouldn't be that popular.
This is beside the point, however. All I'm saying is that I have no right to force "the public" to help me. If they find a value in helping me and choose to do so, lucky me. If not, that's their choice and I have absolutely no right to demand otherwise.
I'm quite aware of this, thanks. The fact of the matter is that the Cuban doctors working in Africa are not having any measurable impact in that country compared to what US doctors, NGOs, government aid, and countless other American and other international efforts are having. Again, I'm not impugning Cuban aid to Africa. I'm simply laughing at those who will celebrate Cuba for this and damn America as if America isn't doing anything about it. American expertise and resources are having more positive effects in a day in Africa than Cuba is going to have in the next decade.
Ok. So where doctors want to be is irrelevent? And every doctor in the US, Cuba, and everywhere else should be sent to sub-Sarahan Africa and SE Asia? That's quite the proposal you have there.
Depends on what your motivation is. Is it the human race that you want to support? or is it your own personal gain?
Slavery and the crusades benefitted all sorts of people! They look great so long as you can ignore the bloodshed and horrible injustice. The idea that these thing only benefited the few is ridiculous and is evidenced by the millions who supported these things.
It is hard for me to believe that those grunts doing the dirty work, all the killing, were so pro-christianity. You may be right.
France's system is the ultimate UHC example. Yet they still do not cover everyone (300,000 without coverage), they have nearly the highest tax burden in the world (50% GDP) and copayment rates are high (10-40%), they're constantly scrambing to import doctors (even to the point that Doctors Without Borders has sent staff to France to cover shortages), and their healthcare industry suffers from little direct investment in technology. The only thing France is largely immune from in my examples is rationing and wait times and that's because the high copayments (something your 'free ride' ideology wouldn't allow for) temper demand. Finally, despite the high taxes and high copayment rates, they still run a deficit of about $20,000,000,000 / year.
300,000 out of 64.5 million people? That seems to be a very good system, based on the numbers, especially when compared to the United States. Granted they pay taxes, plenty of taxes, but I think the general feeling is that those who need the coverage are deserving. They are ok with paying so many taxes.
What??? France taxes people at twice the rate that we do and forces everyone into their system. If they ranked below us, it would be a shock.
Life itself is a payment. Go ahead and sit there. Do nothing. Don't eat, don't breath, don't act in anyway and see how not paying to live works.
I was talking about Cuba, as you know. France ranks above us, with less resources to draw on, a crime given the context.
If you took a poll, it would be very popular. If you actually examined what people do, it wouldn't be that popular.
This is beside the point, however. All I'm saying is that I have no right to force "the public" to help me. If they find a value in helping me and choose to do so, lucky me. If not, that's their choice and I have absolutely no right to demand otherwise.
So where do you draw the line when demanding that society follow certain codes? Isn't leaving someone to die the same as harming them? In my eyes it is.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Comments
Are you suggesting that US doctors should be forced to work in foreign countries against their will and at the expense of US patients?
Regardless, you laud Cuba's UHC system and then chastize the US's health rankings, even though Cuba trails the US in those rankings.
What? In each case, you have large populations (whites and religious zealots) pushing their values on smaller populations (blacks and heretics / infidels).
UHC will be no different. You'll have a majority pushing their values and their responsibilities onto the wealthy or onto those who simply don't wish to be part of the system.
Given Cuba's standing in the HC rankings, and their resources, it is hard to imagine helping others at that stage, yet they do, and do it better than any other country on the planet. Internally they need some wrok, granted.
In each case you have the minority in charge-the church, the market, deciding the course of action for the majority-the crusades, slavery. You think the majority of people involved in the crusades or slavery benefitted from those things?
UHC works in France. It works in many countries. And it can work in the US too.
so ... you would be ok to be left for dead then?
They don't "do it better" than any other country on the planet. They do it rather terribly. Sending a bunch of poorly trained doctors around the world to give immunizations and basic medical services is certainly nice, but it's not high-end medicine they're practicing and many of the doctors are actually very poorly trained. Furthermore, your above statement seems to imply that their international work and their internal work are somehow unrelated and that these international campaigns aren't in part causing the shortages within their nation.
Oh, and you didn't answer my question so I'll repeat it:
Are you suggesting that US doctors should be forced to work in foreign countries against their will and at the expense of US patients?
Hehe..."the church" is not a minority. "The church" is an organization. It is an organization full of many people. Same goes for the "market". You can't reduce a majority to a minority by assigning them one name.
They benefited in the sense that they forced other people to bend to their will. I'm sure the crusades made many people feel absolutely safe and wonderful about their silly convictions. I'm sure slavery provided a lot of cheap clothing to people who wanted it. I'm sure suicide bombers are very satisfied with their afterlife. These "benefits" are irrelevant to the morality of their means.
How does it "work"? People there are denied coverage. They often overpay for medicine via high tax burdens. They have aenemic health industries. They have to import lots of doctors. There is often rationing and long waits. This is not to say that the US's current system doesn't have these same problems (it certainly does), but I don't understand why people chastise the US system based on these problems and then celebrate UHC systems even though they suffer from the same problems.
Furthermore, people seem to always imply that UHC works everywhere that has it. It doesn't. Plenty of nations with UHC rank behind the US in nearly every health index.
Certainly UHC could "work" here. The problem is that few people seem to have any actual definition of work.
I certainly don't want to be dead, no. But if you're asking me if I'd be ok with society leaving me for dead in the event that I opted out of providing society any value in exchange for helping me, I would certainly be ok with their decision.
I think that value comes in helping someone. I guess you don't.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Yeah, I work for a US socialized health care system, the Department for Veteran Affairs, and I get paid significantly more there than I did at any of my other comparable positions in other health care systems. We are currently growing our lab and as a result needed more Chemists, Microbiologists, Cytotechnologists, & Histotechnologists. We got one of the best Pathologists in the area to come work for us. We had no problem 'stealing' them from the other health care systems in the area. And, uh, our benefits are far superior.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
If you could focus for a second, pretend you are a member of the human race- not american, not african, but a member of the human race-you would send your doctors where they are needed most. In this case its Africa-where millions are dying form easily curable diseases and starvation.
Doctors shiould be where they are needed most.
Given little fact here I can't agree with any of it. Your opinion is interesting, but not the way it works. Slavery and the crusades benefited the minority, the few in charge, as its always been. So it goes.
Again your opinion with little fact. From what I"ve seen of France's health care system it is very thorough. With the resources available to the US they should rank below us. THat's no accomplishment. THat's like taking credit for something your supposed to be doing anyway. "I take care of my kids". No shit dumbass, your suppposed too. And paying to live doesn't seem to be working.
Well considering almost 25% of our physicians are from outside the US who have come to America to practice for better training and higher salaries, switching to a system in which doctors receive lower salaries than they receive now would mean less doctors in America.
Part of the reason for the wait times in Canada to see a doctor is that 1/9 Canadian doctors who graduate medical school there practice in America because they make more money.
Having lower paid doctors would at first cause a shortage of doctors as we would lose many foreign doctors and many would stop practicing because of rising malpractice insurance costs.
Then you have the problem I learned about in college firsthand. Many of my friends who were pre-med said that if the US ever went to universal healthcare they would just go to the white collar Wall Street route because it wasn't worth paying for 10 years of school to not be rewarded in the end. So instead of getting the most brilliant minds going into medicine you would get lesser doctors. Of course this might be an isolated scenario because I went to an Ivy League school with a top notch business program, but still the loss of even a few potential quality doctors is a loss to a great many Americans.
- 8/28/98
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I do. But the question isn't being posed about what I value. The question is about what "the public" values. Should I assume my values onto "the public"?
The individuals pay for it whether it's the current system, UHC, or free market. There's not some benevolent God sprinkling healthcare down for free upon the masses.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Blanket statements are almost always inaccurate to some degree
(oops - did I just make a blanket statement?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
So you think there's a good number of citizens who don't find value in helping others? Is this common? Rare?
If we took a poll, I don't think that opinion would be a very popular choice.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Anyone else concerned about this?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
i honestly respect your position on this ... i guess the dilemma then is that if those that decided to partake in the system help you - you find yourself grateful for something you don't believe in or on the other hand dead ...
I'm quite aware of this, thanks. The fact of the matter is that the Cuban doctors working in Africa are not having any measurable impact in that country compared to what US doctors, NGOs, government aid, and countless other American and other international efforts are having. Again, I'm not impugning Cuban aid to Africa. I'm simply laughing at those who will celebrate Cuba for this and damn America as if America isn't doing anything about it. American expertise and resources are having more positive effects in a day in Africa than Cuba is going to have in the next decade.
Ok. So where doctors want to be is irrelevent? And every doctor in the US, Cuba, and everywhere else should be sent to sub-Sarahan Africa and SE Asia? That's quite the proposal you have there.
Slavery and the crusades benefitted all sorts of people! They look great so long as you can ignore the bloodshed and horrible injustice. The idea that these thing only benefited the few is ridiculous and is evidenced by the millions who supported these things.
France's system is the ultimate UHC example. Yet they still do not cover everyone (300,000 without coverage), they have nearly the highest tax burden in the world (50% GDP) and copayment rates are high (10-40%), they're constantly scrambing to import doctors (even to the point that Doctors Without Borders has sent staff to France to cover shortages), and their healthcare industry suffers from little direct investment in technology. The only thing France is largely immune from in my examples is rationing and wait times and that's because the high copayments (something your 'free ride' ideology wouldn't allow for) temper demand. Finally, despite the high taxes and high copayment rates, they still run a deficit of about $20,000,000,000 / year.
What??? France taxes people at twice the rate that we do and forces everyone into their system. If they ranked below us, it would be a shock.
:rolleyes:
Life itself is a payment. Go ahead and sit there. Do nothing. Don't eat, don't breath, don't act in anyway and see how not paying to live works.
If you took a poll, it would be very popular. If you actually examined what people do, it wouldn't be that popular.
This is beside the point, however. All I'm saying is that I have no right to force "the public" to help me. If they find a value in helping me and choose to do so, lucky me. If not, that's their choice and I have absolutely no right to demand otherwise.
Depends on what your motivation is. Is it the human race that you want to support? or is it your own personal gain?
It is hard for me to believe that those grunts doing the dirty work, all the killing, were so pro-christianity. You may be right.
300,000 out of 64.5 million people? That seems to be a very good system, based on the numbers, especially when compared to the United States. Granted they pay taxes, plenty of taxes, but I think the general feeling is that those who need the coverage are deserving. They are ok with paying so many taxes.
I was talking about Cuba, as you know. France ranks above us, with less resources to draw on, a crime given the context.
So where do you draw the line when demanding that society follow certain codes? Isn't leaving someone to die the same as harming them? In my eyes it is.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde