Is Iraq a noble cause?

angelica

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

As much as I'd like the rest of the world to live like us, and by "our rules," that whole idea is very self-defeating. Whether you have the best system or not, people (especially in other countries) do not want to be told how to live.

Thank-you for this.

VINNY GOOMBA

angelica wrote:

Thank-you for this.

You're welcome, Ang.

NC FAN, you have any friends or acquaintances that come around once in a while, and offer you help with something, but you know deep down they are really only trying to help themselves?

You know that feeling when you get when you see them coming... "Here comes So-and-So, I wonder what the hell he wants from me now?"

Such is the worldview of the United States, and you know what? It's true! There isn't anything we do in other countries of the world (goodwill or not) that isn't at least half-pragmatic. It's all in the history books.

As far as Iraq goes, and why we're there-- It's like 2 captains of a baseball team jockeying for home field by going hand over hand on a baseball bat-- except the bat is 18 miles long. Who knows how all this really started, or who's fault it REALLY was? You can go back and forth for ages over how 9/11 came about-- They started it, we started it, they started it, we started it... etc... Does anyone really think that terrorists attacked us for our love of freedom? Of course it isn't that simple.

The point is, these entanglements are TERRIBLE for our great country. Some people can barely be reasoned with, let alone told how to live. As a matter of fact, I'd say we are powerful enough to pick and choose who we want to do business with. They (countries of questionable ethics and regards for the rules) can either change voluntarily (or with a little economic passive resistance from us), or they can go fuck themselves. It's really all bigger than Iraq and 9/11. Our foreign policy really needs to change, if we're ever going to progress, and truly keep ourselves safe.

NCfan

angelica wrote:

This is exactly why the US invasion is responsible. The US created not only a power vacuum, but a lack of balance and stability. And which set other necessary variables into play.

Had to dig this thread back up, but a thought occured to me. Why is it that you hold the US responsible for the chaos in Iraq, and not the individual killers who are running around fighting the Iraqi government and US forces?

Yes, we created a power vacuum, but that doesn't justify looting does it? Yes, we created instability, but that doesn't justify a militia to gather and plant IED's in a market, right?

How is it that you hold the US responsible for the wrong doings of another? Is it that we should have known better, but these people shouldn't? It's our fault for creating instability, but those who create IED's are "just doing what anybody would do to defend themselves from an invading army." Is that how you see it?

The fact is, your logic and thinking on this is wrong. People have a right to fight for what they believe in, be it oil money or jihad. The US is no more at fault here than other parties who contribute to the daily violence.

NCfan

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

You're welcome, Ang.

NC FAN, you have any friends or acquaintances that come around once in a while, and offer you help with something, but you know deep down they are really only trying to help themselves?

You know that feeling when you get when you see them coming... "Here comes So-and-So, I wonder what the hell he wants from me now?"

Such is the worldview of the United States, and you know what? It's true! There isn't anything we do in other countries of the world (goodwill or not) that isn't at least half-pragmatic. It's all in the history books.

As far as Iraq goes, and why we're there-- It's like 2 captains of a baseball team jockeying for home field by going hand over hand on a baseball bat-- except the bat is 18 miles long. Who knows how all this really started, or who's fault it REALLY was? You can go back and forth for ages over how 9/11 came about-- They started it, we started it, they started it, we started it... etc... Does anyone really think that terrorists attacked us for our love of freedom? Of course it isn't that simple.

The point is, these entanglements are TERRIBLE for our great country. Some people can barely be reasoned with, let alone told how to live. As a matter of fact, I'd say we are powerful enough to pick and choose who we want to do business with. They (countries of questionable ethics and regards for the rules) can either change voluntarily (or with a little economic passive resistance from us), or they can go fuck themselves. It's really all bigger than Iraq and 9/11. Our foreign policy really needs to change, if we're ever going to progress, and truly keep ourselves safe.

Gotta agree with about 99% of this. I think that Bush's foreign policy DID change to reflect the reality you speak of. He just fucked up the implementation by listening to assholes like Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld. I don't see it so much as the US trying to tell Iraq how to live, as much as we're trying to tell them how not to live.

thelowlightargentina

pjfanatic4 wrote:

A nation sticking their noses in other nation's business under the premise of "freedom and democracy" when they are really trying to dictate to their own economic interests does not seem to be noble at all.

Probably one of the best post I´ve ever read. I´m with you.

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

I would agree with this if freedom and democracy weren't directly related to economic interests. They both go hand in hand.

I asked you to explain this post. You haven't done so. Therefore I'll regard your post as just hot air with nothing to support it's validity.

NCfan

Byrnzie wrote:

I asked you to explain this post. You haven't done so. Therefore I'll regard your post as just hot air with nothing to support it's validity.

Didn't really realize you couldn't understand such a basic concept. Democracy works in large part becuase of the free-market economy that goes along with it. When the economy faulters, the government is weakened by unsatisfied citizens. People will start to doubt and undermine the system. Other countries who are economically stronger will exert more influence in the world. Not all of these countries are democracies. Iran certainly isn't influencing Lebanon to be a democracy - they are influencing the country to be an Islamic theocracy just like they are.

Case in point, Amedinijad in Iran and Chavez in Venezuela. With oil at $60 a barrell these guys can afford to grab the spotlight and try to assert their positions in the world. With oil at $30 a barrell, they are hiding, running scared from their own country men looking to overthrow them.

Duh...

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

Didn't really realize you couldn't understand such a basic concept. Democracy works in large part becuase of the free-market economy that goes along with it. When the economy faulters, the government is weakened by unsatisfied citizens. People will start to doubt and undermine the system. Other countries who are economically stronger will exert more influence in the world. Not all of these countries are democracies. Iran certainly isn't influencing Lebanon to be a democracy - they are influencing the country to be an Islamic theocracy just like they are.

Case in point, Amedinijad in Iran and Chavez in Venezuela. With oil at $60 a barrell these guys can afford to grab the spotlight and try to assert their positions in the world. With oil at $30 a barrell, they are hiding, running scared from their own country men looking to overthrow them.

Duh...

Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were both extremely wealthy countries. Sure, the wealth wasn't always distributed evenly, but then how does that differ from our so-called 'democracies'?

NCfan

Byrnzie wrote:

Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were both extremely wealthy countries. Sure, the wealth wasn't always distributed evenly, but then how does that differ from our so-called 'democracies'?

Huh?