Is Iraq a noble cause?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Ultimately (at this point) I believe it's about Christians not liking Muslims. They don't like their language...they don't like how they dress... they essentially don't like their culture period... and especially the don't like their religion. Substitute "don't like" with trust if you will.

Christians are going to teach all the Muslims a really good lesson. Christians are better, so don't mess with them.

Some of that may be true...but is it all just and right?

I guess when words no longer work... violence is the only available option.

jlew24asu

polaris wrote:

again ... why can israel have nukes and no one else can?

becos they havent threatened to wipe any countries off the map

NCfan

polaris wrote:

i don't see that ... but if that is what you fear - then continue to support this war ... at the end of the day - the situation in iraq has gotten worse - it has not gotten better and in my opinion it has NOT gotten better on purpose ...

this war and instability is purposeful - it is not ineptness or poor planning ... it is strategic in execution ... continue to believe in the complexities in a place where 99% of the people just want peace ... the war is being fought covertly and with proxies now - the removal of the US troops is a sign that the US no longer chooses to play its game of exploitation at the cost of innocent lives ...

Oh wow, 99% of the people just want peace? Let me guess, the US is the 1% there that is fucking it all up. As if Iraq would be a model state if we just left them alone, huh? Somebody already said it, but it fits so well to your post - "cue the X-files music".

jlew24asu

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Ultimately (at this point) I believe it's about Christians not liking Muslims.

but Muslims like Christians?

NCfan

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Ultimately (at this point) I believe it's about Christians not liking Muslims. They don't like their language...they don't like how they dress... they essentially don't like their culture period... and especially the don't like their religion. Substitute "don't like" with trust if you will.

Christians are going to teach all the Muslims a really good lesson. Christians are better, so don't mess with them.

Some of that may be true...but is it all just and right?

I guess when words no longer work... violence is the only available option.

Hmmm, so how does that account for all the suicide bombs in Iraq that are targeted at ordinary citizens waiting in a line at a market? How does that account for the Shia death squads that are targeting fellow Muslims? How does that view account for all the factions of radical Muslims in Southern Thailand that are fighting the non-Christain government there, etc...? What does ANY of that have to do with Christians?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

jlew24asu wrote:

but Muslims like Christians?

well Christian bombs and bullets have been flying at them for the past 30 years or so...

Kann

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

well Christian bombs and bullets have been flying at them for the past 30 years or so...

It is true that after Palestine and Iraq, muslims may distrust christians (and jews, but that's not anything new)

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Kann wrote:

It is true that after Palestine and Iraq, muslims may distrust christians (and jews, but that's not anything new)

At some point someone has to be the bigger, smarter man...if that's somehow possible. We definitely can't count on it being the underdog.

I'll admit when it comes down to "us or them"... it's obviously us...but what's going on now just can't be the right way to do it. It's like picking at a scab hoping it heals faster...

We need to be more self sufficient and stop needing them for anything i.e. oil.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

NCfan wrote:

Hmmm, so how does that account for all the suicide bombs in Iraq that are targeted at ordinary citizens waiting in a line at a market? How does that account for the Shia death squads that are targeting fellow Muslims? How does that view account for all the factions of radical Muslims in Southern Thailand that are fighting the non-Christain government there, etc...? What does ANY of that have to do with Christians?

I'm not saying they are model citizens...their religion is pretty nasty and has the framework for some brutal ideology...however... how is what Bush is doing now anywhere close to being intelligent in solving the problem.

I said it before, but it's literally like pouring gas on a fire believing it will go out at some point.

The Iraq war isn't solving anything...I just can't see how anyone can actually believe that. Bush is culminating the prelude world war 3 is what he's doing.

New terrorists are being created, and now uniting in mass numbers. A new al-Quada video comes out approx every 3 days now. The exact opposite of what we want, we are now creating.

It's madness...with an imbecile at the helm.

.

angelica

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Ultimately (at this point) I believe it's about Christians not liking Muslims. They don't like their language...they don't like how they dress... they essentially don't like their culture period... and especially the don't like their religion. Substitute "don't like" with trust if you will.

Christians are going to teach all the Muslims a really good lesson. Christians are better, so don't mess with them..

I agree.

Roland, I agree with basically every word you've said in this thread.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

angelica wrote:

I agree.

Roland, I agree with basically every word you've said in this thread.

I just wish I had the answers. It's becoming hard to decipher what's right and wrong anymore these days (with regards to foreign policy).

rebornFixer

Re. the Christians not liking Muslims point.
Basically, that's probably true ... But much of the mistrust or dislike is directly linked to the actions of certain extremist Muslim groups and teachings. If you want people to give you a fair shake, don't behave like a psycho asshole. Its not rocket science, or even complicated behavioral science. Sure, many Christians are bigoted with no good reason. Ditto for Muslims. Moderates on both sides need to work on reconciliation.

And Roland ... I do not like how many Muslims force a particular style of dress on their people. This is my own biased Western view of equality rearing its ugly head, I guess. I would be remiss if I didn't admit this. What's your point? Should I change my views?

angelica

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I just wish I had the answers. It's becoming hard to decipher what's right and wrong anymore these days (with regards to foreign policy).

I hear you.

angelica

reborncareerist wrote:

Re. the Christians not liking Muslims point.
Basically, that's probably true ... But much of the mistrust or dislike is directly linked to the actions of certain extremist Muslim groups and teachings. If you want people to give you a fair shake, don't behave like a psycho asshole. Its not rocket science, or even complicated behavioral science. Sure, many Christians are bigoted with no good reason. Ditto for Muslims. Moderates on both sides need to work on reconciliation.

And Roland ... I do not like how many Muslims force a particular style of dress on their people. This is my own biased Western view of equality rearing its ugly heads, I guess. I would be remiss if I didn't admit this. What's your point? Should I change my views?

There are "reasons" for this Christians not liking Muslims stuff. And yet at core, it is what it is. If Christians could face the facts of their underlying motivations, beyond the "reasons", rather than pointing the finger at the other guy, then there would be some awareness. At this point, it's been about denial on the Christian side, while demonizing the other side.

So frankly, this is the first time I've personally consciously acknowledged this point--thanks to Roland--and I plan to spread awareness of it when humanly possible. Christians don't like Muslims. There. The history books will show it down the road, no matter what denial or "justification/reasons" take place now.

It's not all Christians* by any stretch of the imagination, and it's definitely , much more than just Christians, but when we're generalizing these topics 1 or 2 hundred years from now, with the perspective, the finer points will be lost.

*I do not refer to the term "Christian" in the ideal sense of the word, but in the very human, practically applied, flawed sense.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

reborncareerist wrote:

Re. the Christians not liking Muslims point.
Basically, that's probably true ... But much of the mistrust or dislike is directly linked to the actions of certain extremist Muslim groups and teachings. If you want people to give you a fair shake, don't behave like a psycho asshole. Its not rocket science, or even complicated behavioral science. Sure, many Christians are bigoted with no good reason. Ditto for Muslims. Moderates on both sides need to work on reconciliation.

And Roland ... I do not like how many Muslims force a particular style of dress on their people. This is my own biased Western view of equality rearing its ugly heads, I guess. I would be remiss if I didn't admit this. What's your point? Should I change my views?

I agree...some (a lot perhaps) of it is essentially oppressive slavery. A slavery to religion. Those city loudspeakers blasting the "time to pray or else" thing is downright scary... How does one liberate a country from it's own religion? I don't know if it's possible to do this peacefully. They are just human beings like us, but they happen to be born into it.

One thing I'm certain of, is that there's a flurry of nobel (and associated) high honors waiting for the person(s) that can actually figure it out without shooting everyone.

angelica

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

IHow does one liberate a country from it's own religion? I don't know if it's possible to do this peacefully.

According to developmental psychological stages that all humans progress through on their evolution, we enable them to develop at their own pace. Any infringement at all merely adds fuel to the fire.

Fundamental religion-world views serve a valid purpose and when the needs of that evolutionary stage have been met, people progress to next levels.

We live and let live.

angelica

Ultimately, the reason this situation is interesting is because the American views which have culminated in this war are just being what they are too.

Can we get upset at or justify degrading someone who is where they are in life? If they appear to be at a "less-evolved" place, does it make sense for us to get upset with them for being who they are? Do we think it'll automatically cause them to evolve? I don't think so--or rather I know it won't. So, our upset and our anger is the fallout from our own "stages" where we've moved past a collective view that justifies this insanity, and we have our own developmental challenges, that are just as complicated, if not more so for us, and that are actually independent of what others do.

polaris

NCfan wrote:

Oh wow, 99% of the people just want peace? Let me guess, the US is the 1% there that is fucking it all up. As if Iraq would be a model state if we just left them alone, huh? Somebody already said it, but it fits so well to your post - "cue the X-files music".

who are the aggressors in this war and where do they come from?

smithnic

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Ultimately (at this point) I believe it's about Christians not liking Muslims. They don't like their language...they don't like how they dress... they essentially don't like their culture period... and especially the don't like their religion. Substitute "don't like" with trust if you will.

Christians are going to teach all the Muslims a really good lesson. Christians are better, so don't mess with them.

Some of that may be true...but is it all just and right?

I guess when words no longer work... violence is the only available option.

that and the huge amounts of oil underneath them
religion is secondary to $$$$

NCfan

polaris wrote:

who are the aggressors in this war and where do they come from?

There are LOTS of aggressors from many different places both inside and outside of Iraq. For you to suggest that the Americans are the lone aggressors here just shows your biased rationale.

We came in and defeated the regime that controlled the country and that created a power vacuum. Now there is a fight to gain control of the country again, and lots of different groups have stepped into the ring. The Americans are fighting for a democracy and the only people we are fighitng are those against a democracy.