Someine needs to remind Ron Paul and his supporters

my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
edited May 2008 in A Moving Train
that this country was made economically "great" and a massive middle class was developed through DOMESTIC SPENDING, INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT, AND REGULATION...AND THAT IS THE EXACT REASON EUROPE IS CURRENTLY LEAVING US IN THE DUST AND HAS BECOME THE GLOBAL ECONOMIC SUPERPOWER.


these people want to go back to pre new deal days? not to mention the whole states rights madness he advocates...
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  • NevermindNevermind Posts: 1,006
    I thought China was the new global economic superpower.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Nevermind wrote:
    I thought China was the new global economic superpower.

    not even close... turn off cnn and lou dobbs
  • NevermindNevermind Posts: 1,006
    my2hands wrote:
    not even close... turn off cnn and lou dobbs
    Anything to base that on?
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Nevermind wrote:
    Anything to base that on?


    yup, GDP


    it is a blowout... Europe Union is the # 1 in the world in GDP and has 5 times the GDP of China (with 1/4 of the population)


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)


    *** not to mention the "Euro" is currently the worlds strongest currency


    americans will wake up soon to find themselves in an outdated economic/domestic model being blown out by the EU. it is already happening but Americans are too busy waving their flags to notice it
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    like i said... turn off cnn and lou dobbs
  • MIC has a price tag no?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • NevermindNevermind Posts: 1,006
    my2hands wrote:
    like i said... turn off cnn and lou dobbs
    27 countries would definately have the advantage over one country.
  • SilverSeedSilverSeed Posts: 336
    my2hands wrote:
    that this country was made economically "great" and a massive middle class was developed through DOMESTIC SPENDING, INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT, AND REGULATION...AND THAT IS THE EXACT REASON EUROPE IS CURRENTLY LEAVING US IN THE DUST AND HAS BECOME THE GLOBAL ECONOMIC SUPERPOWER.


    these people want to go back to pre new deal days? not to mention the whole states rights madness he advocates...

    No no, illegal immigrants are the problem. Once we get them out the U.S. will be fine...

    Ok kidding aside, you're absolutely right. And it wouldn't be hard. Step 1: Bring troops home. Step 2: Invest what would have gone to the war domestically. Step 3: Crack a beer.

    I have to disagree on the states rights issue though. If anything we need to send more power the individual states (as the framers of our country imagined) and away from the Federal gov't. State government is closer to it's own people and can react more quickly to changing environments. Not to mention we'd have medical in CA...
    When Jesus said "Love your enemies" he probably didn't mean kill them...

    "Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    so you're in favor of globalizaton?
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Nevermind wrote:
    27 countries would definately have the advantage over one country.


    nice try... the EU has 500 million people... about 1/4 the current population of china which is near 2 billion... your looking at europe through a 20th century lense like most americans still do, they have moved onto becoming a solid union are now 21st century europe. much like the usa, with one currency, and one set of union laws much like our federal laws... so that argument is bogus

    all they have done is become a union, mush like the states of america.

    the europeans are light years ahead of us, and the world. realize it, and realize why
  • SilverSeed wrote:

    I have to disagree on the states rights issue though. If anything we need to send more power the individual states (as the framers of our country imagined) and away from the Federal gov't. State government is closer to it's own people and can react more quickly to changing environments. Not to mention we'd have medical in CA...

    Not to mention, how they can more easily be held accountable by their people.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    so you're in favor of globalizaton?


    in many ways, yes. this is one planet correct? whats so wrong with global community and coordination?


    what does globalization have to do with domestic spending, infrastructure, and regualtion?

    and what does globalization have to do with the EU?
  • SilverSeedSilverSeed Posts: 336
    my2hands wrote:
    nice try... the EU has 500 million people... about 1/4 the current population of china which is near 2 billion... your looking at europe through a 20th century lense like most americans still do, they have moved onto becoming a solid union are now 21st century europe. much like the usa, with one currency, and one set of union laws much like our federal laws... so that argument is bogus

    all they have done is become a union, mush like the states of america.

    the europeans are light years ahead of us, and the world. realize it, and realize why

    One needs to only look at the value of the euro since it's inception to grasp this. Europe is flying past us... What we need to learn from them is that enabling and empowering your closest neighbors to work with you toward a common economic goal is in all of our best interests.
    When Jesus said "Love your enemies" he probably didn't mean kill them...

    "Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
  • NevermindNevermind Posts: 1,006
    my2hands wrote:
    nice try... the EU has 500 million people... about 1/4 the current population of china which is near 2 billion... your looking at europe through a 20th century lense like most americans still do, they have moved onto becoming a solid union are now 21st century europe. much like the usa, with one currency, and one set of union laws much like our federal laws... so that argument is bogus

    all they have done is become a union, mush like the states of america.

    the europeans are light years ahead of us, and the world. realize it, and realize why
    Its still 27 nations. If we integrated with 26 other nations the American Union would be number one.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Not to mention, how they can more easily be held accountable by their people.




    i am interested to know what you think about my original post? seriously
  • This almost borders on a pro SPP/NAU thread.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Nevermind wrote:
    Its still 27 nations. If we integrated with 26 other nations the American Union would be number one.


    ok, it is obvious you are not ready for this discussion.


    the EU was not #1 in GDP or the ecomonic superpower before they unionized. they became that way after coming together and domestically investing, developing infrastructure, and started to regulate collectively.


    the EU is not that kuch different then the USA, a collection of states unified into 1 union.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    This almost borders on a pro SPP/NAU thread.


    it is a pro domestic spending, pro doemstic infrastructure, pro regualtion thread... thats all


    so it is basicly an anti ron paul doemstic policy thread
  • my2hands wrote:
    i am interested to know what you think about my original post? seriously


    I'm not interested in it
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    my2hands wrote:
    in many ways, yes. this is one planet correct? whats so wrong with global community and coordination?


    what does globalization have to do with domestic spending, infrastructure, and regualtion?

    and what does globalization have to do with the EU?


    nothing is wrong with it. If everyone is cooperating it works pretty well... but how stepford is that? The oldest civilizations in the world still hate each others guts. Europe is doing quite well right now from a far and probably decently living there, I get to see Italy first hand soon and I intend to enjoy it to the fullest. They've also endured several thousand years of wars failures, famines, dieseases....etc. Athens had a wonderful democratic governmental system... that failed rather quickly.

    I tend to wonder in a global economy who regulates the government and how? Who decides what is fair? How are resources distributed....? I mean hell, the US a very strong country for the past 50 years or so currently decides thier Executive office in about the same manner American Idol gives out record contracts. What do we really expect from the government?

    I was just interested. The weakness of the dollar currently is tied in part to the fact that the money is based on an empty IOU from the FED. The only reason it's worth anything is because of a social construct.

    Love the emphasis on infrastructure..... but our politicans simply don't care about that till election time.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • NevermindNevermind Posts: 1,006
    my2hands wrote:
    ok, it is obvious you are not ready for this discussion.


    the EU was not #1 in GDP or the ecomonic superpower before they unionized. they became that way after coming together and domestically investing, developing infrastructure, and started to regulate collectively.


    the EU is not that kuch different then the USA, a collection of states unified into 1 union.
    Its not that im not ready. Im just anti-globalization.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Nevermind wrote:
    Its not that im not ready. Im just anti-globalization.


    so domestic spending, infrastructure, and regulation are globalization?


    you have no clue what you are talking about do you?
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    I'm not interested in it


    ok, thats cool.


    i just wanted to point out that ron paul and his "supporters" dont know what the fuck they are talking about and that they better think twice about what they are supporting
  • NevermindNevermind Posts: 1,006
    my2hands wrote:
    so domestic spending, infrastructure, and regulation are globalization?


    you have no clue what you are talking about do you?
    Theres a difference in 27 nations and one. True or false? Im not against domestic spending as long as it has a decent purpose.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    nothing is wrong with it. If everyone is cooperating it works pretty well... but how stepford is that? The oldest civilizations in the world still hate each others guts. Europe is doing quite well right now from a far and probably decently living there, I get to see Italy first hand soon and I intend to enjoy it to the fullest. They've also endured several thousand years of wars failures, famines, dieseases....etc. Athens had a wonderful democratic governmental system... that failed rather quickly.

    I tend to wonder in a global economy who regulates the government and how? Who decides what is fair? How are resources distributed....? I mean hell, the US a very strong country for the past 50 years or so currently decides thier Executive office in about the same manner American Idol gives out record contracts. What do we really expect from the government?

    I was just interested. The weakness of the dollar currently is tied in part to the fact that the money is based on an empty IOU from the FED. The only reason it's worth anything is because of a social construct.


    honestly this thread is not about globalization at all. we can chat about that later. there are pro's and con's and it isnt happening anytime soon.

    this is about ron paul and his completely misguided domestic policy ideas
  • my2hands wrote:
    ok, thats cool.


    i just wanted to point out that ron paul and his "supporters" dont know what the fuck they are talking about and that they better think twice about what they are supporting

    I have started to realize that people have differing ideals and like to try to focus on our common ground, discuss our differences civilly and learn from one another. Just telling people how their view is wrong and yours is the only right way to see it isn't very productive.

    You need to state why you view libertarian principles as the wrong approach and
    then why your approach would work better, in your opinion.


    I think they are on to some things and I think liberals are, too. We're all in this together as citizens of this country.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    I have started to realize that people have differing ideals and like to try to focus on our common ground, discuss our differences civilly and learn from one another. Just telling people how their view is wrong and yours is the only right way to see it isn't very productive.

    You need to state why you view libertarian principles as the wrong approach and
    then why your approach would work better, in your opinion.


    I think they are on to some things and I think liberals are, too. We're all in this together as citizens of this country.

    Excellent post, Abook. I know we disagree on many things, but there are ways of doing it respectfully. I have no interest in getting into any sort of discussion with my2hands about this topic since everyone but him has no fucking clue, apparently. I'm definitely more of a Paul guy - smaller central government, less regulation, more accountability. He's more of a large, centralized, activist, command and control government proponent. 2 different ways of attacking a problem. One is completely distasteful to me, the other doesn't work for him. So be it. My vote will be to the candidate who maximizes liberty and freedom and none of the big 3 are interested in doing that.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    jeffbr wrote:
    Excellent post, Abook. I know we disagree on many things, but there are ways of doing it respectfully. I have no interest in getting into any sort of discussion with my2hands about this topic since everyone but him has no fucking clue, apparently. I'm definitely more of a Paul guy - smaller central government, less regulation, more accountability. He's more of a large, centralized, activist, command and control government proponent. 2 different ways of attacking a problem. One is completely distasteful to me, the other doesn't work for him. So be it. My vote will be to the candidate who maximizes liberty and freedom and none of the big 3 are interested in doing that.

    Well said. What is the point of trying to have an intelligent discussion with someone when they believe that there opinion is the only one that counts.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • lesson #1

    DITCH THE FED...

    EXCELLENT IDEA

    btw...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Here's a quick breakdown on RP. This US election is looking a lot like Ron Paul v.s. the three headed same brained political entity "McHillBama". (Hillary-McCain-Obama pig) Manbearpigs not so distant cousin.

    Environment
    Only Ron Paul has said he would legalize hemp which has been scientifically proven to be a better cleaner method for producing ethanol than corn or coal. Hemp has a multitude of uses all of them more environmentally friendly than what they would replace.

    Ron Paul would end the wars. The pentagon itself is the 46th largest polluter compared to countries on harmful green house gasses. Ending the war would also end the use by the US of depleted uranium a radio active pollutant which will last thousands of years.

    Ron Paul will also close the loop hole on SUVs and allow the market to remain free and will not engage in corporate welfare. He will protect property rights and has stated that he would subsidize research for alternative sources of clean energy, solar, wind and bio.

    Gay marriage.
    It is not a difficult issue and Ron Paul doesn’t juggle his position. Any two adults of any combination who are not already married should be able to get married if they want and the government should have nothing to do with it.

    The Wars
    Ron Paul would not only bring our troops home from wars that have nothing to do with protecting America’s national interests, he will go a step further and will close unnecessary bases in Germany, Japan, and elsewhere and save the US around a Trillion dollars a year!

    The money cut on spending will allow for huge tax cuts and more money for education and healthcare. Furthermore it is the moral and ethical thing to do.

    Foreign aid to dictators
    Ron Paul will end all aid to the entire Middle East including Israel. There is no reason the Military industrial complex should be allowed to finance itself buy awarding the money of the people of the US to despot and fascist nations to fund all sides of a military conflict. This would save again hundreds of billions of dollars.

    Nukes
    Paul will freeze the 36 billion dollar a year nuclear program in the US and there is absolutely no reason the US needs to build any more nuclear bombs when it already possesses thousands.

    Trade
    Ron Paul will trade and negotiate with everyone. Paul is willing to trade with Cuba who is no longer (if they ever even were) a threat to the US and should be able to mutually benefit from each other’s markets.

    Paul also opposes NAFTA as it is unfairly designed to allow large government subsidized agribusinesses into Mexico where it can monopoly that industry and drive millions of workers out of business where they often get picked up in both Mexico and (illegally) in the US to be used as exploited labor.

    Welfare
    Ron Paul wants to end the welfare state. No one will be kicked out into the street people who are already dependent will be taken care of however young people will be given the option to opt out of social security if they choose to and save their own money as it appears that the SS funds have already been spent by the Bush administration and there will be no money there in the future for all the people paying into it.

    Education
    Ron Paul will get rid of the Department of Education which deals with education in title only and is in reality an institution to control schools and turn them into businesses acting as umbrella corporations to take “education” money and spend it on construction, beautification, etc. the DOE dictates what is taught in schools and acts as a method of indoctrination not education. States should be allowed more control. We don’t all need to read the exact same books in high school. Our public education is dismal.

    Private schools free from the DOE do tend to teach better and out perform public schools. Crushing the DOE would liberate public schools from the rigid write and repeat joke that is posing as education right now. With federal tax cuts, and a trillion dollar spending cut from imperialism, combined with a stronger dollar and sound money, people would have more income, and state would have more to spend on education.

    There is the misconception that the DOE pays for public schools. It does not. Public schools are paid by the states through their property taxes and somethimes a state lottery.

    War on drugs
    Paul would end the CIA’s lucrative drug rings by legalizing drugs and taking away their profitability. Victims of drugs would be treated as addicts rather than criminals and given treatment. Less harmful drugs could be used recreationally and would adult decisions just as they are now with alcohol. There is absolutely no reason to put a marijuana user in jail solely for using marijuana. Marijuana may also have medical benefits in certain situations and would be perfectly legal as are other prescription drugs. Other benefits from this would stem from the legalization of the hemp and its multitude of benefits for the environment from paper to fuel.

    Taxes
    Because Ron Paul over a trillion dollars from ending the war closing bases and ending nuclear proliferation, and senseless foreign aid, Americans would enjoy massive tax cuts. The income tax would be gone allowing people keep their own money rather than giving it to the government. No social programs would have to be cut to compensate for the loss revenue because we can save more than enough just by ending our imperial practices. The IRS would be gone. Many departments such as the Department of Homeland Security would also be cut. They are unnecessary in many cases unethical (they infringe on civil liberties and advocate torture etc) and we don’t need to waste money on them. Ron Paul has never voted to raise taxes.

    Monetary policy
    Ron Paul is the only candidate running that even has a monetary policy. The big monster in the dark that creates inflation and the business cycles in housing and the stock market is the Federal Reserve. They create money backed by nothing out of thin air and loan it to the government to pay for imperial escapades and the government pays them back with interest by simply printing more money and devaluating the dollar. Paul would kill the spending and the borrowing as he would end the wars, and get rid of the Federal Reserve. This country used the gold standard until 1971 and could return to it to create sound money. We don’t need a secretive private bank controlling our money supply. At the very least if the Fed is to continue then there must be an audit and they have got to be more public and open.

    Privacy
    Paul stands for transparency in government and privacy for the individuals. There would be no searches with out warrants. There would be no domestic spying. There would be no censorship of the Internet. There would be no phone tapping. And there would no longer be a Patriot Act.

    Torture
    Ron Paul is opposed to torture no and ifs of buts about it. Gitmo would be closed down and renditions made illegal and people (soldiers or mercenaries) breaking the law would be prosecuted.

    Israel
    Paul will end all aid to Israel. He takes no money from AIPAC and believes they should be prosecuted for spying on the US.

    Iran
    Paul would stop the threats and sanctions on Iran. He would withdraw our naval war ships from their border. There is no reason to rush into WWIII with a country that based on the Evidence poses no threat the US and whose people should not be economically punished for having the “possibility” or “know how” of being able to one day harm the US.

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    Constitution
    Ron Paul is a strict constitutionalist. He has never voted to and will never break the constitution. It is unconstitutional to have undeclared wars. It is unconstitutional to avoid due process of law. It is unconstitutional to confiscate guns, land, or homes. Ron Paul would restore the constitution.

    Gun Control
    The best way to control guns is to use both hands. Ron Paul supports the right to bare arms as it is part of the constitution. Gun free zones like Virginia Tech leave non-criminals like sitting ducks to an armed criminal. Armed citizens can bring a assailant down on their own, as they did in the Virginia Appalachian school of law, without waiting to fat, out of shape, chicken-shit cops to surround a building for four hours and do nothing until the shooter had killed himself. Police normally show up AFTER a crime when it is too late to prevent it. You have a right to defend yourself and home or deter criminals with the threat of it.

    The Borders
    You may have noticed on the map that the US actually does have borders. It is a sovereign nation with a unique culture and common language. Illegal immigrants should not cut in line from those going through the legal process. There is no excuse to not just simply do the legal paper work. Illegal aliens are exploited for labor by large and small businesses. And if desperate people can cross the border, so can illegal weapons, terrorists, and criminals. It is wrong to use exploited labor and it is wrong to tighten the number of available jobs and drive down wages. If people want to work in the US and make money for themselves or their families, then come over the legal way, pay taxes like everyone else and get a job. Ron Paul would make it easier to come legally but much harder to come illegally. Furthermore he would end the hand out to illegal and end the causes of such desperation at least in Mexico, by ending NAFTA and opening up more trade to all nations.

    Free Speech
    People have free speech that is part of the constitution. No where does the constitution state free speech “zones.” The entire country is a free speech zone. Ron Paul would not continue Bush and the Neocon’s practice of limiting free speech to designated zones. Paul has even been a victim of government censorship as the pentagon’s media outlet Fox News refused to allow Ron Paul in a presidential debate before the New Hampshire primaries even though it allowed others like Giuliani who had much less support than Paul.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
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