Surely whether or not the other trick or treaters visited or not is kind of off the point? The point being that if this psycho DIDN'T have a gun, the child wouldn't be dead?
Quoted for truth.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Surely whether or not the other trick or treaters visited or not is kind of off the point? The point being that if this psycho DIDN'T have a gun, the child wouldn't be dead?
If he didn't have a gun, he may have just as well used a bow & arrow or ninja throwing stars. They are both deadly weapons.
I found spongers ''it's not like it happens every halloween'' comment offensive.
I'm bowing out of this thread. I've had kids die in my arms and seen their families heartbreak. Every one of them that dies is one too many. I don't give a fuck if it doesn't happen every halloween. A child is dead. Show some compassion and respect.
Surely whether or not the other trick or treaters visited or not is kind of off the point? The point being that if this psycho DIDN'T have a gun, the child wouldn't be dead?
YES.
And anyone who fails to understand this is an automatic posterboy for why America shouldn't have guns.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
I found spongers ''it's not like it happens every halloween'' comment offensive.
I'm bowing out of this thread. I've had kids die in my arms and seen their families heartbreak. Every one of them that dies is one too many. I don't give a fuck if it doesn't happen every halloween. A child is dead. Show some compassion and respect.
The reason why you find it offensive is because you think this is a thread about a dead family.
I see the bigger picture and see it as a thread about gun control. After all, the OP makes reference to gun control in his post.
It is not my intention to lessen the seriousness of this horrible tragedy, but rather to put the OP's post into perspective.
If anything, if you were remain consistent in your logic, you would find the OP's post to be equally offensive by exploiting this tragedy to further his own personal political agenda.
Absolutely. I'm not a fan of guns. I never have been.
However, banning guns is absurd. A. It's impossible. B. It won't solve anything.
Tough laws and tougher enforcement and even tougher education are the keys to lessening the gun problem (notice I didn't say solving, because it can't be solved).
"Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
And anyone who fails to understand this is an automatic posterboy for why America shouldn't have guns.
If that's really what you think, then you are the poster boy for why correlative reasoning should be taught more heavily in public schools.
You are essentially trying to make the argument that I more than anyone else am an icon of illegal gun violence. Surely you can't be that intellectually inept, can you?
If that's really what you think, then you are the poster boy for why correlative reasoning should be taught more heavily in public schools.
You are essentially trying to make the argument that I more than anyone else am an icon of illegal gun violence. Surely you can't be that intellectually inept, can you?
I'm sorry, but weren't you just trying to argue that it was the fathers fault his son got shot because he didn't have some kind of 'spider sense' that the house was dodgy or dangerous?
If that's really what you think, then you are the poster boy for why correlative reasoning should be taught more heavily in public schools.
You are essentially trying to make the argument that I more than anyone else am an icon of illegal gun violence. Surely you can't be that intellectually inept, can you?
No, you're not an icon of illegal gun violence, if you can't understand what urbanhippie posted then you're an indication of the wider ignorance that perpetuates it.
Those who cling to the 2nd Amendment like toddlers to their mothers are failing to realise that things change. The founding fathers didn't secure this right so that people could tool up their homes and murder people, it was for defence. Back then being allowed a musket in your barn might have been viable, these days the laws need tightening up a little bit. Your constitutional rights don't hold so much weight in a world where kids get murdered for trick-or-treating.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
I'm sorry, but weren't you just trying to argue that it was the fathers fault his son got shot because he didn't have some kind of 'spider sense' that the house was dodgy or dangerous?
No, I was merely pointing out that it seems apparent that other trick or treaters had avoided this house, yet this father had no qualms about marching his family onto the front porch.
No, I was merely pointing out that it seems apparent that other trick or treaters had avoided this house, yet this father had no qualms about marching his family onto the front porch.
How was this apparent? And it still does not detract from the argument that had there been no gun the child would not have been shot.
Gun don't kill people, people kill people :rolleyes:
People with guns kill people.
And I live in a questionable neighbourhood, on my own with my kids. Never felt the need to own a gun though.
I live in a VERY questionable neighbourhood where it took me several minutes to work out if it was gunshots or fireworks I could hear a few streets away the other night, could've been either round here. I've never felt the need to own a gun.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
No, you're not an icon of illegal gun violence, if you can't understand what urbanhippie posted then you're an indication of the wider ignorance that perpetuates it.
Those who cling to the 2nd Amendment like toddlers to their mothers are failing to realise that things change. The founding fathers didn't secure this right so that people could tool up their homes and murder people, it was for defence. Back then being allowed a musket in your barn might have been viable, these days the laws need tightening up a little bit. Your constitutional rights don't hold so much weight in a world where kids get murdered for trick-or-treating.
Do you really think that people weren't shooting innocent families at the time the constitution was written?
Your views reflect the classic "times were different back then" point of view, which in actuality is totally delusional in addition to being downright ignorant.
That's why the "founding fathers" argument has no validity what so ever.
It never ceases to amaze me how those who go around accusing other people of "widespread ignorance" tend to have views very much along those lines, if not moreso.
Do you really think that people weren't shooting innocent families at the time the constitution was written?
Your views reflect the classic "times were different back then" point of view, which in actuality is totally delusional in addition to being downright ignorant.
That's why the "founding fathers" argument has no validity what so ever.
It never ceases to amaze me how those who go around accusing other people of "widespread ignorance" tend to have views very much along those lines, if not moreso.
My ignorance isn't getting people shot. I can live with it.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
But that in no way means that gun control would've prevented the man from owning one.
No, you're right. But does that mean that because psycho's can get guns, we should all have one? That you should be able to buy them at the mall? I disagree.
But that in no way means that gun control would've prevented the man from owning one.
It certainly would reduce the likelihood, though. Oh yeah, but then the guy could have throwing stars or dynamite or a big ACME anvil, right? :rolleyes:
Cops have it worse than any other emergency worker. They have the dirtiest, scariest, most unappreciated job out of all of us.
No wonder so many of them become corrupted. Nobody appreciates what they do, and they truly work their asses off.
This very true however many do find ways to abuse the power that is given to them by our cities and towns.
This is from Democracy Now yesterday...
LA Police Officer Kills Unarmed African American
Back in the United States, an unarmed African American has been shot dead by a police officer in the yard of his Los Angeles home. Twenty-year-old Julian Alexander was killed as he stood outside with a broomstick after hearing a strange noise in his yard. A police officer who had been chasing suspected burglars through the neighborhood shot him twice without warning. Alexander had recently married. His wife is due to give birth to their first child in December.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
What about people who buy guns for sport? People who collect guns and never shoot them? Their idea of a gun is not to kill people with it, but to use it recreationally. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the majority of people who buy guns will never kill anyone with them.
Bad arguement. Think real hard about what a gun is for? If its about target practice only, then why don't people invest in pellot guns or paintball guns? Yes some people only collect, but its a collection of devices that have a purpose to kill..
That said, I'm pro-guns. Generally my opinions are liberal, but this belief moves me from being on the far left.
Absolutely. I'm not a fan of guns. I never have been.
However, banning guns is absurd. A. It's impossible. B. It won't solve anything.
Tough laws and tougher enforcement and even tougher education are the keys to lessening the gun problem (notice I didn't say solving, because it can't be solved).
A. Nothing is impossible B. Tougher laws and enforcement has been proven not to work C. Education is spot on
That's why the "founding fathers" argument has no validity what so ever.
No validity whatsoever?
It would be ignorant and wrong to not consider the circumstances in which the constitution was written.
The times were definitely different. Vastly different. The point is not whether people were commiting crimes and shooting other people.
The spirit of the times was completely different. People had fought for independence, the American Revolutionary War was still on their minds. It was considered necessary that the people had the right to oppose their government when their government was unjust.
Guns had another place in society because it was nothing like society today, 80% of the population worked on farms. Today, it's more like 1%. Another aspect of society is travel or means of transportation. Travel was slow and often very dangerous. What now takes 8 hours by car, was a journey of 15 days.
The land as well as the creatures that inhabited it were new as well. There were bears, rattlesnakes, coyotes etc. and plenty of undiscovered territory. It's not exactly a good idea to venture into the wild without proper preperation.
My point is a gun was a very useful and essential tool back then. Today, a gun isn't an essential tool to life. There are very very few people who actually need a gun.
I'm not saying guns should be banned because they're not really needed today. I'm saying people need to look at the constitution and see it for what it is; a document from a time in which things, life, society, guns, technology... were vastly different. I mean, the constitution was written before the Industrial Revolution for fuck's sake.
There are obvious problems in the US with gun related violence. This needs to be addressed. Instead gun supporters scream like toddlers when someone says it might be a good idea to have some regulations and tighter and stricter laws.
I think it's not so irrational to ask for tight regulations at least to begin with. You know, a basic standard rule that makes sure that guns cannot be bought legally without a thorough background check, without proper training or by someone who has a criminal history or a history of mental problems. That's not even the case in the US.
They are not going to take away your guns. Relax. Breathe. You can keep your guns. But the problem needs to be addressed and anyone with even just half a brain knows that there will have to be compromise.
Right now there is a problem and yelling "you'll never take our guns" and "it's our constitutional right" will never ever solve anything. Never.
If you agree there is a problem, the least you can do is come up with a suggestion how to address it.
It would be ignorant and wrong to not consider the circumstances in which the constitution was written.
The times were definitely different. Vastly different. The point is not whether people were commiting crimes and shooting other people.
The spirit of the times was completely different. People had fought for independence, the American Revolutionary War was still on their minds. It was considered necessary that the people had the right to oppose their government when it's government was unjust.
Guns had another place in society because it was nothing like society today, 80% of the population worked on farms. Today, it's more like 1%. Another aspect of society is travel or means of transportation. Travel was slow and often very dangerous. What now takes 8 hours by car, was a journey of 15 days.
The land as well as the creatures that inhabited it were new as well. There were bears, rattlesnakes, coyotes etc. and plenty of undiscovered territory. It's not exactly a good idea to venture into the wild without proper preperation.
My point is a gun was a very useful and essential tool back then. Today, a gun isn't an essential tool to life. There are very very few people who actually need a gun.
I'm not saying guns should be banned because they're not really needed today. I'm saying people need to look at the constitution and see it for what it is; a document from a time in which things, life, society, guns, technology... were vastly different. I mean, the constitution was written before the Industrial Revolution for fuck's sake.
There are obvious problems in the US with gun related violence. This needs to be addressed. Instead gun supporters scream like toddlers when someone says it might be a good idea to have some regulations and tighter and stricter laws.
I think it's not so irrational to ask for tight regulations at least to begin with. You know, a basic standard rule that makes sure that guns cannot be bought legally without a thorough background check, without proper training or by someone who has a criminal history or a history of mental problems. That's not even the case in the US.
They are not going to take away your guns. Relax. Breathe. You can keep your guns. But the problem needs to be addressed and anyone with even just half a brain knows that there will have to be compromise.
Right now there is a problem and yelling "you'll never take our guns" and "it's our constitutional right" will never ever solve anything. Never.
If you agree there is a problem, the least you can do is come up with a suggestion how to address it.
Lets try banning the ammunition that goes into the gun
.that way we could still adibe by the constitution.
AS for as I know the second amendment says nothing about the right to have ammo
or least making it as difficult as possible to get.
And what kind of firearm are we talking about?
Handguns
Auto/ Semi-auto weapons
Rifles
shotguns
My thought is enforce the laws we have , BAN gun shows which have the LEAST amount of oversight.I don't think Loophole is even the word for these.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I was talking to one of my buddies yesterday. He's a cop and I'm a fireman, so naturally there's all the ball-busting that comes from that; a friendly pissing contest, so to speak.
Basically, he wound up saying "man, you guys have it made compared to us." I had to agree with him. Fire isn't scary. People are scary. You can study fire, it's predictable. You can learn how a building is built and find out what's inside the building and it'll tell you how the fire will burn and how to fight it.
People? People are unpredictable. People are scary. People can make choices and they can snap.
That being said, I still don't blame guns. That's too easy. It's a person, not the weapon. Why don't we blame the money they used to buy the gun? Should we make money illegal?
Why don't we ban cars? Cars can be just as devastating when used as a weapon. People use cars as weapons. Let's ban cars. Oh, wait, that would be inconvenient for anti-gun activists, right?
There's no answer. People, children included, are going to die regardless. It's a painful reality and that's why human beings have invented religion: so they can have the hope that they'll see their dead parents and spouses and kids again. I've got news for you all, and I hate to say it, but, these things happen, and it's disgusting and it makes me cringe. I hate hearing about kids being hurt and, even worse, I hate being on the scene after it happens but, kids get killed by guns, knives, cars, and diseases every week.
All that being said, tougher gun regulation is the closest answer. The red states hate the idea of gun regulation. I think it's a crime that you can walk into a Wal*Mart and buy a gun just by flashing a photo ID.
Oh, and the guy that killed the kid? I'm all about harsh sentences for murderers and the like.
agree with most of this, except that buying a gun isn't quite as simple as flashing your id, at least here.
not to get off-topic, but far more kids die from partial birth abortion than guns, and that process is even easier than flashing an id.
but back to the subject. The "gun owner" is begging to be made and exmaple of, and a high-profile national example of putting this guy away for good will do some good in my view.
By increasing gun legislation, you are only limiting the rights of law-abiding citizens. This is why conservatives do not favor gun control.
In terms of gun control, I favor compulsry firearm education for all 12 year olds and up, either through school or a private institution. Much like we have drivers ed and sex ed. I favor tougher laws and tougher enforcement on illegal weapon circulation.
I believe that is the best way to avoid these types of inceidents.
Comments
If he didn't have a gun, he may have just as well used a bow & arrow or ninja throwing stars. They are both deadly weapons.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
I'm bowing out of this thread. I've had kids die in my arms and seen their families heartbreak. Every one of them that dies is one too many. I don't give a fuck if it doesn't happen every halloween. A child is dead. Show some compassion and respect.
Are you serious?
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/4731512142/" title="PJ Banner2 by Mister J Photography, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/4731512142_258f2d6ab4_b.jpg" width="630" height="112" alt="PJ Banner2" /></a>
And anyone who fails to understand this is an automatic posterboy for why America shouldn't have guns.
The reason why you find it offensive is because you think this is a thread about a dead family.
I see the bigger picture and see it as a thread about gun control. After all, the OP makes reference to gun control in his post.
It is not my intention to lessen the seriousness of this horrible tragedy, but rather to put the OP's post into perspective.
If anything, if you were remain consistent in your logic, you would find the OP's post to be equally offensive by exploiting this tragedy to further his own personal political agenda.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Chris Rock on bullet control.
If that's really what you think, then you are the poster boy for why correlative reasoning should be taught more heavily in public schools.
You are essentially trying to make the argument that I more than anyone else am an icon of illegal gun violence. Surely you can't be that intellectually inept, can you?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
Those who cling to the 2nd Amendment like toddlers to their mothers are failing to realise that things change. The founding fathers didn't secure this right so that people could tool up their homes and murder people, it was for defence. Back then being allowed a musket in your barn might have been viable, these days the laws need tightening up a little bit. Your constitutional rights don't hold so much weight in a world where kids get murdered for trick-or-treating.
No, I was merely pointing out that it seems apparent that other trick or treaters had avoided this house, yet this father had no qualms about marching his family onto the front porch.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
Do you really think that people weren't shooting innocent families at the time the constitution was written?
Your views reflect the classic "times were different back then" point of view, which in actuality is totally delusional in addition to being downright ignorant.
That's why the "founding fathers" argument has no validity what so ever.
It never ceases to amaze me how those who go around accusing other people of "widespread ignorance" tend to have views very much along those lines, if not moreso.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
But that in no way means that gun control would've prevented the man from owning one.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
It certainly would reduce the likelihood, though. Oh yeah, but then the guy could have throwing stars or dynamite or a big ACME anvil, right? :rolleyes:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/4731512142/" title="PJ Banner2 by Mister J Photography, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/4731512142_258f2d6ab4_b.jpg" width="630" height="112" alt="PJ Banner2" /></a>
This very true however many do find ways to abuse the power that is given to them by our cities and towns.
This is from Democracy Now yesterday...
LA Police Officer Kills Unarmed African American
Back in the United States, an unarmed African American has been shot dead by a police officer in the yard of his Los Angeles home. Twenty-year-old Julian Alexander was killed as he stood outside with a broomstick after hearing a strange noise in his yard. A police officer who had been chasing suspected burglars through the neighborhood shot him twice without warning. Alexander had recently married. His wife is due to give birth to their first child in December.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
That said, I'm pro-guns. Generally my opinions are liberal, but this belief moves me from being on the far left.
No validity whatsoever?
It would be ignorant and wrong to not consider the circumstances in which the constitution was written.
The times were definitely different. Vastly different. The point is not whether people were commiting crimes and shooting other people.
The spirit of the times was completely different. People had fought for independence, the American Revolutionary War was still on their minds. It was considered necessary that the people had the right to oppose their government when their government was unjust.
Guns had another place in society because it was nothing like society today, 80% of the population worked on farms. Today, it's more like 1%. Another aspect of society is travel or means of transportation. Travel was slow and often very dangerous. What now takes 8 hours by car, was a journey of 15 days.
The land as well as the creatures that inhabited it were new as well. There were bears, rattlesnakes, coyotes etc. and plenty of undiscovered territory. It's not exactly a good idea to venture into the wild without proper preperation.
My point is a gun was a very useful and essential tool back then. Today, a gun isn't an essential tool to life. There are very very few people who actually need a gun.
I'm not saying guns should be banned because they're not really needed today. I'm saying people need to look at the constitution and see it for what it is; a document from a time in which things, life, society, guns, technology... were vastly different. I mean, the constitution was written before the Industrial Revolution for fuck's sake.
There are obvious problems in the US with gun related violence. This needs to be addressed. Instead gun supporters scream like toddlers when someone says it might be a good idea to have some regulations and tighter and stricter laws.
I think it's not so irrational to ask for tight regulations at least to begin with. You know, a basic standard rule that makes sure that guns cannot be bought legally without a thorough background check, without proper training or by someone who has a criminal history or a history of mental problems. That's not even the case in the US.
They are not going to take away your guns. Relax. Breathe. You can keep your guns. But the problem needs to be addressed and anyone with even just half a brain knows that there will have to be compromise.
Right now there is a problem and yelling "you'll never take our guns" and "it's our constitutional right" will never ever solve anything. Never.
If you agree there is a problem, the least you can do is come up with a suggestion how to address it.
naděje umírá poslední
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
They arrested a man for shooting the child...not a gun.
Sweep the Leg Johnny.
... you can't shoot somebody without one.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
.that way we could still adibe by the constitution.
AS for as I know the second amendment says nothing about the right to have ammo
or least making it as difficult as possible to get.
And what kind of firearm are we talking about?
Handguns
Auto/ Semi-auto weapons
Rifles
shotguns
My thought is enforce the laws we have , BAN gun shows which have the LEAST amount of oversight.I don't think Loophole is even the word for these.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
agree with most of this, except that buying a gun isn't quite as simple as flashing your id, at least here.
not to get off-topic, but far more kids die from partial birth abortion than guns, and that process is even easier than flashing an id.
but back to the subject. The "gun owner" is begging to be made and exmaple of, and a high-profile national example of putting this guy away for good will do some good in my view.
By increasing gun legislation, you are only limiting the rights of law-abiding citizens. This is why conservatives do not favor gun control.
In terms of gun control, I favor compulsry firearm education for all 12 year olds and up, either through school or a private institution. Much like we have drivers ed and sex ed. I favor tougher laws and tougher enforcement on illegal weapon circulation.
I believe that is the best way to avoid these types of inceidents.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09