wasn't that kinda par for the course back then? i mean, human beings in general were brutal back then. columbus was nothing special. in those days if you wanted a village you went in, sacked it, raped the women, burned the homes, and stole all the goods. they did this to each other, not just the native americans. columbus just found new places to do it. by your definition i'd say prior to 16-1700 EVERYONE was on par with hitler and hussein.
i dont get columbus day though. he wasnt american, not in america, had nothing to do with america, and didn't discover shit.
I basically agree with this. Columbus was a product of his time. It is hard to fathom how human beings treated each other, back in the day, aristocrats vs peasants, etc. I'm sure years from now folks will look back on our times and have the same sentiments.
It seems, though, our criteria on who deserves a national holiday is quite lacking. Columbus was not a man of character, although he was probably quite on par for his time. National holidays should be named after those men and women that were extraordinary for their time, as far as character and how they helped advance humanity.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
"a group of young men and women tore down the statue of the 15th Century explorer during this national holiday that was renamed the Day of Indigenous Resistance.""
must be weird for them... the US having Columbus Day, a celebration of the day America was discovered, and yet they were already living there...
dunky, it would be like you celebrating the queen's birthday for being so kind to the scotland and for so many hundreds of years of fine, hospitable treatment from the english monarchy. not going to happen.
just to clarify...there was nobody in scotland before the english "arrived", right?
I basically agree with this. Columbus was a product of his time. It is hard to fathom how human beings treated each other, back in the day, aristocrats vs peasants, etc. I'm sure years from now folks will look back on our times and have the same sentiments.
It seems, though, our criteria on who deserves a national holiday is quite lacking. Columbus was not a man of character, although he was probably quite on par for his time. National holidays should be named after those men and women that were extraordinary for their time, as far as character and how they helped advance humanity.
Yea like Martin Luther King day.
I totally am for this day being a holiday.
It seems, though, our criteria on who deserves a national holiday is quite lacking. Columbus was not a man of character, although he was probably quite on par for his time. National holidays should be named after those men and women that were extraordinary for their time, as far as character and how they helped advance humanity.
I'd probably have to work a lot more often if that were the case.
wasn't that kinda par for the course back then? i mean, human beings in general were brutal back then. columbus was nothing special. in those days if you wanted a village you went in, sacked it, raped the women, burned the homes, and stole all the goods. they did this to each other, not just the native americans. columbus just found new places to do it. by your definition i'd say prior to 16-1700 EVERYONE was on par with hitler and hussein.
i dont get columbus day though. he wasnt american, not in america, had nothing to do with america, and didn't discover shit.
I agree. But we have a national holiday honoring him, parades, statues, streets.....
I cant think of another "holiday" where someone like that is honored.
Exactly...........a holiday for gov workers.....they give them extra holidays when they can't/won't give them raises.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
it's a made up goverment holiday.
it's a load of shit.
All holidays are made up. That was my point in the Halloween post. This holiday is as disgusting to me as thanksgiving. Yet, people over on the Hobo forum will tell you that if your kids have fun with it, it's ok to celebrate. It doesn't matter what the origin of it is. (note sarcastic disdain)
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
All holidays are made up. That was my point in the Halloween post. This holiday is as disgusting to me as thanksgiving. Yet, people over on the Hobo forum will tell you that if your kids have fun with it, it's ok to celebrate. It doesn't matter what the origin of it is. (note sarcastic disdain)
i note it, but can't figure out which part the disdain is directed at... the practice of halloween, or people who oppose celebrating halloween?
*edit* nevermind, i read the other thread. not what i would have expected from you.
Why is it weird? If it wasn't on any maps, no trade, no notion of a continent even existing, then it was, in fact, discovered. Anytime someone discovers anything, that thing they discovered was already there.
Columbus didn't 'discover' America. This has been proven. There was trade occurring between some vikings and tribes in North America.
oh we have a day like this too. it's called australia day. 26th january. it commemorates the first day of white settlement. interestingly enough i doubt many australian even know the date 'cpt' james cook "discovered" the east coast. to the indigenous population its known as invasion day.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Many Native Americans I know call it Indigenous Peoples Day instead.
I don't know why anyone would want to celebrate a murderer.
And he wasn't even the first European to set foot on the Americas, the Vikings did it a few hundred years earlier.
DENVER — Police arrested 83 Columbus Day Parade protesters including American Indian Movement activist Russell Means after fake blood and dismembered baby dolls were poured on the parade route Saturday.
At least 10 of those arrested faced charges of resisting arrest, while most faced charges of blocking a parade route or interfering with a peaceful assembly, police spokesman Sonny Jackson said. The parade through downtown was delayed about an hour.
George Vendegnia, one of the organizers of the parade, said the protest and delay were planned for and caused minimal disruption.
"With this protest, it's just motivating people more to be back next year and exercise their right to participate in an American holiday," Vendegnia said.
No serious injuries were reported to either protesters or police.
Among those seen being led away in handcuffs was Glenn Morris, an associate professor of political science at the University of Colorado and one of the organizers of the All Nations/Four Directions March, a march in protest of the parade.
Denver's parade, which was started in 1907, has a troubled history of arrests and confrontations between Columbus supporters and detractors. Protesters have called him a slave trader who touched off centuries of genocide and oppression against native people. Supporters say he was a brave explorer who opened a new world and that the parade is an American holiday to be celebrated.
Colorado is credited with being the first to make Columbus Day a state holiday, which later became a federal holiday. The parade is touted as being one of the first in honor of Columbus.
Morris and other protest march organizers earlier this week said they were angered with last year's use of re-enactors of a 19th century U.S. Army Cavalry unit to carry the flag before the start of the Columbus Day Parade. They likened the use of the soldiers, who wore uniforms similar to those used during the Indian Wars of the late 1800s, to nooses used to intimidate black students in the central Louisiana town of Jena.
Vendegnia said the re-enactors did not participate this year because of a scheduling conflict.
dunky, it would be like you celebrating the queen's birthday for being so kind to the scotland and for so many hundreds of years of fine, hospitable treatment from the english monarchy. not going to happen.
just to clarify...there was nobody in scotland before the english "arrived", right?
nice
its been quite a good read this thread... i've always wondered about the Aussies and their Captain Cook day as well... so thanks Cate.
and Jeffbr saying why is it weird? well i'ts kinda weird to have a national holiday to celebrate your own country being discovered, when as others have noted as well, it was already discovered.. people lived on it, traded on it and generally it was theirs already... it doesnt have to be on a European explorers map for it to be discovered..
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Why Columbus day? To me the US should celebrate the arrival of the piligrims or the first cetlement in Virginia. Columbus never even set foot on what is today the continental United States.
Here in PR there a lots of statues and plazas named after Columbus and I would love to take them down and rename them all. Its fucking embarrasing.
I bet you guys wouldn't be talking shit about Columbus if Sylvio Dante or Pauly Walnuts was sitting next to you.
I don't want to sound insensitive (get ready for something insensitive) but shouldn't Native Americans and left-leaning history professors get over this whole thing? It was 1492 for chrissakes and he didn't even land here. I guess the pursuit of historical accuracy is a never-ending quest. Let the kids out of school, give those bank and government fucks the day off and call it whatever you want.
Maybe we should change cities such as Columbus, Ohio to Indigenous Peoples, Ohio or Invasion and Occuapation, Ohio. It could be the new Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.
"Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
I bet you guys wouldn't be talking shit about Columbus if Sylvio Dante or Pauly Walnuts was sitting next to you.
I don't want to sound insensitive (get ready for something insensitive) but shouldn't Native Americans and left-leaning history professors get over this whole thing? It was 1492 for chrissakes and he didn't even land here. I guess the pursuit of historical accuracy is a never-ending quest. Let the kids out of school, give those bank and government fucks the day off and call it whatever you want.
Maybe we should change cities such as Columbus, Ohio to Indigenous Peoples, Ohio or Invasion and Occupation, Ohio. It could be the new Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.
I suppose if you were a native American then you'd better understand the sensitivities inherent in this issue.
I imagine a Jewish man living in Poland would object to his street being named Goebbels avenue.
Columbus was a greedy fuck who murdered women and children.
I imagine many native Americans would also object to a George Armstrong Custer day, or to a street being named after him. The man raped and killed pregnant women, and murdered babies. Therefore I could understand certain people objecting to his name being celebrated.
its been quite a good read this thread... i've always wondered about the Aussies and their Captain Cook day as well... so thanks Cate.
dunk didnt you read what i said? we don't celebrate cook's discovery of the east coast, which occurred in april 1770. what we celebrate is first european settlement in january 1788. as it turns out if it weren't for a sudden squall which pushed the endeavour more north, cook would more than likely have missed the mainland altogether and sailed west through what is now bass strait.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
dunk didnt you read what i said? we don't celebrate cook's discovery of the east coast, which occurred in april 1770. what we celebrate is first european settlement in january 1788. as it turns out if it weren't for a sudden squall which pushed the endeavour more north, cook would more than likely have missed the mainland altogether and sailed west through what is now bass strait.
sorry my antipodean amigo...
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Its interesting looking back now on what we were taught...and how untrue almost all of that was. I clearly remember being told that the whites and Indians would have meals together...and share things..... (wow...).
talking about teaching a version of history you want to teach. I bet in two hundred years from now...we'll be telling stories of how the Iraqis greeted us as Liberators...and we used to hold hands and eat together...
“Kept in a small bowl, the goldfish will remain small. With more space, the fish can grow double, triple, or quadruple its size.”
-Big Fish
must be weird for them... the US having Columbus Day, a celebration of the day America was discovered, and yet they were already living there...
There's no way any Native American would honor Columbus or celebrate Columbus Day. He was nothing but a savage to their ancestors.
Columbus Day is not really celebrated by anyone except for some of the Italians here who basically just have a parade.
It is a national holiday, which means the schools are closed and some get a day off from work, but usually private businesses remain open. It is actually one of the few holidays that is not revolved around eating tons of food lol. There are usually lots of sales in the shops so people do some shopping but that's about it.
Leif Ericson is credited with coming to North America (his less well known day is October 9th) way before Columbus was even born but Columbus made his "discovery" well known. He made Europeans aware of the new land and made them interested in it, which led to more exploration and eventually the settlements.
"...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."
I suppose if you were a native American then you'd better understand the sensitivities inherent in this issue.
I imagine a Jewish man living in Poland would object to his street being named Goebbels avenue.
Columbus was a greedy fuck who murdered women and children.
I imagine many native Americans would also object to a George Armstrong Custer day, or to a street being named after him. The man raped and killed pregnant women, and murdered babies. Therefore I could understand certain people objecting to his name being celebrated.
Imagine New York celebrating "Osama Bin Laden" day.
Comments
yea actually i suppose so.
some being more useless than others.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
I basically agree with this. Columbus was a product of his time. It is hard to fathom how human beings treated each other, back in the day, aristocrats vs peasants, etc. I'm sure years from now folks will look back on our times and have the same sentiments.
It seems, though, our criteria on who deserves a national holiday is quite lacking. Columbus was not a man of character, although he was probably quite on par for his time. National holidays should be named after those men and women that were extraordinary for their time, as far as character and how they helped advance humanity.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
excellent. thanks for posting this, roland.
dunky, it would be like you celebrating the queen's birthday for being so kind to the scotland and for so many hundreds of years of fine, hospitable treatment from the english monarchy. not going to happen.
just to clarify...there was nobody in scotland before the english "arrived", right?
Yea like Martin Luther King day.
I totally am for this day being a holiday.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
I'd probably have to work a lot more often if that were the case.
Holidays are an excuse to get hammered and eat too much. People don't pay much attention to the why anymore.
Yeah, that's who I had in mind too!
Admittedly, I have the day off.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I agree. But we have a national holiday honoring him, parades, statues, streets.....
I cant think of another "holiday" where someone like that is honored.
.......We should have Amerigo Vespucci Day.
Nuclear fission
i note it, but can't figure out which part the disdain is directed at... the practice of halloween, or people who oppose celebrating halloween?
*edit* nevermind, i read the other thread. not what i would have expected from you.
Columbus didn't 'discover' America. This has been proven. There was trade occurring between some vikings and tribes in North America.
Also, check this out...
1421: The Year China Discovered the World
http://www.amazon.com/1421-Year-China-Discovered-World/dp/0553815229/ref=sr_1_1/102-0222242-8094532?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191900297&sr=1-1
And...
http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/1400032059/ref=pd_sim_b_2/102-0222242-8094532
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You beat me to it.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299959,00.html
Sunday, October 07, 2007
DENVER — Police arrested 83 Columbus Day Parade protesters including American Indian Movement activist Russell Means after fake blood and dismembered baby dolls were poured on the parade route Saturday.
At least 10 of those arrested faced charges of resisting arrest, while most faced charges of blocking a parade route or interfering with a peaceful assembly, police spokesman Sonny Jackson said. The parade through downtown was delayed about an hour.
George Vendegnia, one of the organizers of the parade, said the protest and delay were planned for and caused minimal disruption.
"With this protest, it's just motivating people more to be back next year and exercise their right to participate in an American holiday," Vendegnia said.
No serious injuries were reported to either protesters or police.
Among those seen being led away in handcuffs was Glenn Morris, an associate professor of political science at the University of Colorado and one of the organizers of the All Nations/Four Directions March, a march in protest of the parade.
Denver's parade, which was started in 1907, has a troubled history of arrests and confrontations between Columbus supporters and detractors. Protesters have called him a slave trader who touched off centuries of genocide and oppression against native people. Supporters say he was a brave explorer who opened a new world and that the parade is an American holiday to be celebrated.
Colorado is credited with being the first to make Columbus Day a state holiday, which later became a federal holiday. The parade is touted as being one of the first in honor of Columbus.
Morris and other protest march organizers earlier this week said they were angered with last year's use of re-enactors of a 19th century U.S. Army Cavalry unit to carry the flag before the start of the Columbus Day Parade. They likened the use of the soldiers, who wore uniforms similar to those used during the Indian Wars of the late 1800s, to nooses used to intimidate black students in the central Louisiana town of Jena.
Vendegnia said the re-enactors did not participate this year because of a scheduling conflict.
nice
its been quite a good read this thread... i've always wondered about the Aussies and their Captain Cook day as well... so thanks Cate.
and Jeffbr saying why is it weird? well i'ts kinda weird to have a national holiday to celebrate your own country being discovered, when as others have noted as well, it was already discovered.. people lived on it, traded on it and generally it was theirs already... it doesnt have to be on a European explorers map for it to be discovered..
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Here in PR there a lots of statues and plazas named after Columbus and I would love to take them down and rename them all. Its fucking embarrasing.
If not, then it's not a holiday for them....just like it's not a holiday for the rest of us.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't want to sound insensitive (get ready for something insensitive) but shouldn't Native Americans and left-leaning history professors get over this whole thing? It was 1492 for chrissakes and he didn't even land here. I guess the pursuit of historical accuracy is a never-ending quest. Let the kids out of school, give those bank and government fucks the day off and call it whatever you want.
Maybe we should change cities such as Columbus, Ohio to Indigenous Peoples, Ohio or Invasion and Occuapation, Ohio. It could be the new Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.
I suppose if you were a native American then you'd better understand the sensitivities inherent in this issue.
I imagine a Jewish man living in Poland would object to his street being named Goebbels avenue.
Columbus was a greedy fuck who murdered women and children.
I imagine many native Americans would also object to a George Armstrong Custer day, or to a street being named after him. The man raped and killed pregnant women, and murdered babies. Therefore I could understand certain people objecting to his name being celebrated.
dunk didnt you read what i said? we don't celebrate cook's discovery of the east coast, which occurred in april 1770. what we celebrate is first european settlement in january 1788. as it turns out if it weren't for a sudden squall which pushed the endeavour more north, cook would more than likely have missed the mainland altogether and sailed west through what is now bass strait.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
sorry my antipodean amigo...
no problemo. i was just clarifying.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
talking about teaching a version of history you want to teach. I bet in two hundred years from now...we'll be telling stories of how the Iraqis greeted us as Liberators...and we used to hold hands and eat together...
-Big Fish
There's no way any Native American would honor Columbus or celebrate Columbus Day. He was nothing but a savage to their ancestors.
Columbus Day is not really celebrated by anyone except for some of the Italians here who basically just have a parade.
It is a national holiday, which means the schools are closed and some get a day off from work, but usually private businesses remain open. It is actually one of the few holidays that is not revolved around eating tons of food lol. There are usually lots of sales in the shops so people do some shopping but that's about it.
Leif Ericson is credited with coming to North America (his less well known day is October 9th) way before Columbus was even born but Columbus made his "discovery" well known. He made Europeans aware of the new land and made them interested in it, which led to more exploration and eventually the settlements.
Imagine New York celebrating "Osama Bin Laden" day.
Nuclear fission