Is Columbus Day a holiday for Native Americans

dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
edited October 2007 in A Moving Train
must be weird for them... the US having Columbus Day, a celebration of the day America was discovered, and yet they were already living there...
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
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  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    its not even a holiday for many americans. stock market and many business are open. no one really cares.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Why is it weird? If it wasn't on any maps, no trade, no notion of a continent even existing, then it was, in fact, discovered. Anytime someone discovers anything, that thing they discovered was already there.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • i feel bad for the guy. Just some guy trying to make a buck in India and runs into a new continent. Now he's responsible for hundreds of years of immigration, war, disease and genocide and everything else that has ever happened in the Americas, at least according to assholes like Chavez.

    But the italians are having a parade today!
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    dunkman wrote:
    must be weird for them... the US having Columbus Day, a celebration of the day America was discovered, and yet they were already living there...

    I don't know how they view it. I know that if I was native American I would probably look upon this day the same way Eurpoean jews looked upon the day Hitler rose to power.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • 5 minute excerpt from the documentary The Canary Effect

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wm0EvTk8o4
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

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  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    its not even a holiday for many americans. stock market and many business are open. no one really cares.

    oh to work for the government... :)
  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    jeffbr wrote:
    Why is it weird? If it wasn't on any maps, no trade, no notion of a continent even existing, then it was, in fact, discovered. Anytime someone discovers anything, that thing they discovered was already there.


    ......acording to Europe and the Church. I'm sure the people living there already would disagree whether or not is was "discovered".

    Funny thing, though. It WAS on maps.....it WAS known to exist. Columbus was not the first to see it.

    If anyone wants to, read this book. "Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies" by Bartolome de las Casas.


    http://www.amazon.com/Short-Account-Destruction-Indies-Bartolome/dp/0140445625/ref=sr_1_1/002-2836466-8927211?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191870176&sr=8-1

    Its an actual account of what Columbus and the Spanish did to the native people of the Indies, and how brutal they were to them.

    I put Columbus right up there with Hitler, Hussein, etc.
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  • Columbus was the first Catholic ;)
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
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  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    MrSmith wrote:
    i feel bad for the guy. Just some guy trying to make a buck in India and runs into a new continent. Now he's responsible for hundreds of years of immigration, war, disease and genocide and everything else that has ever happened in the Americas, at least according to assholes like Chavez.

    But the italians are having a parade today!


    una gente en dios

    en dios

    a people of god



    that whole india thing is made up considering it wasnt even named india for a long time there after


    just some info.
  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    macgyver06 wrote:
    una gente en dios

    en dios

    a people of god



    that whole india thing is made up considering it wasnt even named india for a long time there after


    just some info.

    Correct.

    Most people have a 6th grade level of knowledge when it comes to Columbus....Im not really blaming anyone for that other than schools....but the story is so much different.
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  • i didnt mean to sound like i thought he was a great guy or that he proved the world was round or anything. He was a pretty shitty but probably typical rich European of the time. Thats why I'd say he wasn't quite a Hitler (that and the fact that he didn't rule a country. He was more of a petty thug. I guess its a matter of scale).

    I just think its strange that he is the focal point of all colonization. I bet he had no idea how much of an impact he had on the Earth.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Vedd Hedd wrote:
    Correct.

    Most people have a 6th grade level of knowledge when it comes to Columbus....Im not really blaming anyone for that other than schools....but the story is so much different.

    parents
  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    MrSmith wrote:
    i didnt mean to sound like i thought he was a great guy or that he proved the world was round or anything. He was a pretty shitty but probably typical rich European of the time. Thats why I'd say he wasn't quite a Hitler (that and the fact that he didn't rule a country. He was more of a petty thug. I guess its a matter of scale).

    I just think its strange that he is the focal point of all colonization. I bet he had no idea how much of an impact he had on the Earth.

    Actually, some of the things he did were worse than Hitler. Or at LEAST, on par with the holocaust.

    And he was largely reeponsible for setting up the system, most likely becasue he was the first from Europe to do so, and was under such HUGE pressure from the Church to bring back wealth, in the form of GOLD, not spices.

    There were huge gold mines in the indies, but the natives did not really need any gold.....however, gold was extremely valuable to the Church and to Europe.....

    But the indies lacked mining equipment, so to speed the process Columbus would give each slave a cup....they would take their cup into the mines and if, after a certain amount of time it wasnt filled, they would chop off limbs and force you to continue to work...arms or legs would be placed at the mouth of the mine for all the slaves to see to use as motivation...and if people died, he would place the bodies in the slave camp as a reminder of what would happen if you didnt get your quota.....if a slave resisted, they would rape their family members and gut them alive.

    Great stuff.

    EDIT: I forgot to add....the slaves were given files to file off gold dust.....thats what they had to do to fill their cups. They lacked tools other than files....so they would get the gold dust and take it back to europe and melt it back togehter to make gold bars, religious artifacts, money, etc.
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  • Vedd Hedd wrote:
    Actually, some of the things he did were worse than Hitler. Or at LEAST, on par with the holocaust.

    And he was largely reeponsible for setting up the system, most likely becasue he was the first from Europe to do so, and was under such HUGE pressure from the Church to bring back wealth, in the form of GOLD, not spices.

    There were huge gold mines in the indies, but the natives did not really need any gold.....however, gold was extremely valuable to the Church and to Europe.....

    But the indies lacked mining equipment, so to speed the process Columbus would give each slave a cup....they would take their cup into the mines and if, after a certain amount of time it wasnt filled, they would chop off limbs and force you to continue to work...arms or legs would be placed at the mouth of the mine for all the slaves to see to use as motivation...and if people died, he would place the bodies in the slave camp as a reminder of what would happen if you didnt get your quota.....if a slave resisted, they would rape their family members and gut them alive.

    Great stuff.

    Or the ripping babies from their mother arms then swinging them by the feet head first against rocks, trees etc...

    Very pleasant those first European explorers were.

    Those parts didn't make the grade 6 textbooks for some reason.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    Or the ripping babies from their mother arms then swinging them by the feet head first against rocks, trees etc...

    Very pleasant those first European explorers were.

    Those parts didn't make the grade 6 textbooks for some reason.

    What's that saying. The victors get to write history.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    Or the ripping babies from their mother arms then swinging them by the feet head first against rocks, trees etc...

    Very pleasant those first European explorers were.

    Those parts didn't make the grade 6 textbooks for some reason.


    True. And many people never take College level history, or even pay attention in HS.

    Ah well.
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  • Vedd Hedd wrote:
    Actually, some of the things he did were worse than Hitler. Or at LEAST, on par with the holocaust.

    And he was largely reeponsible for setting up the system, most likely becasue he was the first from Europe to do so, and was under such HUGE pressure from the Church to bring back wealth, in the form of GOLD, not spices.

    There were huge gold mines in the indies, but the natives did not really need any gold.....however, gold was extremely valuable to the Church and to Europe.....

    But the indies lacked mining equipment, so to speed the process Columbus would give each slave a cup....they would take their cup into the mines and if, after a certain amount of time it wasnt filled, they would chop off limbs and force you to continue to work...arms or legs would be placed at the mouth of the mine for all the slaves to see to use as motivation...and if people died, he would place the bodies in the slave camp as a reminder of what would happen if you didnt get your quota.....if a slave resisted, they would rape their family members and gut them alive.

    Great stuff.

    thats not what i'm arguing. Sadly, with all sorts of atrocities and slave practices common in the world at the time, i doubt Colombus was much different than any other powerful person. Where as Hitler's actions were far less acceptable to people in his time. I'd say Colombus was more of a tiny, wannabe HitlerStalin.
  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    Oh yeah....that book I mentioned....it was a diary of a priest sent by the church to help convert the slaves.

    In it, he discusses his mission, the people he was to convert, the conditions they were living in prior to and after Columbus. It basically describes how the people were living in a well formed community, very sustainable, and how initially they welcomed the Europeans. Many of them even converted willingly at first. But they were ultimately subjugated to become slaves.

    The priest became silently critical of Columbus and ultimately called him some sort of devil....its been a while since I read it...

    When the priest went back to Europe to tell of the mission, his accounts were largely lost, until his diary showed up later.

    He told the Church was was going on, and they either refused to believe it or didnt care......but most of his records, other than the diary were somehow missing.
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  • And i honestly can't remember in school anyone ever saying Colombus was a great guy. The books said he was the first EUROPEAN to discover America (which technically still isn't true but its close) and thats sbout it. I don't know where you guys went to school, but i went to school in the worst fucking school systems in America (Mississippi and Louisiana) and the teachers (most of whom were pretty liberal) didn't portray American history as all sunshine and rainbows. This isn't 1942. Seriously, what the fuck.
  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    MrSmith wrote:
    thats not what i'm arguing. Sadly, with all sorts of atrocities and slave practices common in the world at the time, i doubt Colombus was much different than any other powerful person. Where as Hitler's actions were far less acceptable to people in his time. I'd say Colombus was more of a tiny, wannabe HitlerStalin.


    Fair enough. I see what youre saying.

    I guess Isabella and Ferdinand would be the Hitler, then.:)

    Or the Church who sponsored him!:)
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  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    MrSmith wrote:
    And i honestly can't remember in school anyone ever saying Colombus was a great guy. The books said he was the first EUROPEAN to discover America (which technically still isn't true but its close) and thats sbout it. I don't know where you guys went to school, but i went to school in the worst fucking school systems in America (Mississippi and Louisiana) and the teachers (most of whom were pretty liberal) didn't portray American history as all sunshine and rainbows. They didn't get into the gory stuff either. Seriously, what the fuck.


    Didnt learn this in Grade school, touched on it in high school. Most of this came from college.
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  • Venezuelan's no likey Columbus!

    "a group of young men and women tore down the statue of the 15th Century explorer during this national holiday that was renamed the Day of Indigenous Resistance.""

    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/734
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • i just keep being told about how the american school system is some kind of propaganda tool for the US gov't. The school system, its teachers and administration couldn't find its ass with both hands. its withering on the vine. And most kids don't pay attention in history class anyway or are too obsessed with being cool to make good grades. It couldn't brainwash anyone if it tried. The American school system is a joke but not because it teaches bad history.
  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    MrSmith wrote:
    i just keep being told about how the american school system is some kind of propaganda tool for the US gov't. The school system, its teachers and administration couldn't find its ass with both hands. its withering on the vine. And most kids don't pay attention in history class anyway or are too obsessed with being cool to make good grades. It couldn't brainwash anyone if it tried. The American school system is a joke but not because it teaches bad history.


    I agree with that to a certain degree, but ultimately it depends on the individual.

    I think some schools teach the "In Fourteen hundred and Ninety-Two, Columbus sailed the ocean blue" version of Columbus while some are more objective.

    But either way, its hard to go into the real details like that in grade school. Its too bad many HS kids dont want to pay attention, because some of this shit, while disgusting, is simply fascinating.

    I think most non-history major or minors in College only have to take one or two classes, dont really care, and dont really pay attention.

    I was given the "Columbus was great, he was so brave and discovered America" lesson, but I went to a catholic school, so maybe they were defending the fact he spread christianity.
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  • I think my mom taught me the "Columbus was great" thing. And most of the other similar ideals. She's always the idealist, heheh. But i guess if the lessons a re good ones the names dont matter.

    I was always fascinated by history, too. it was my favorite class. It always bugged me that people didn't understand the point.
  • Many Native Americans I know call it Indigenous Peoples Day instead.
    I don't know why anyone would want to celebrate a murderer.
    And he wasn't even the first European to set foot on the Americas, the Vikings did it a few hundred years earlier.
    7/16/06 7/18/06
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    Columbus day is actually turd day.

    Lief Ericson, wasn't he and his fellow
    vikings the first outsiders to set foot
    on North America sum one thousand
    years before Columbus was even invented?
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Vedd Hedd wrote:
    Its an actual account of what Columbus and the Spanish did to the native people of the Indies, and how brutal they were to them.

    I put Columbus right up there with Hitler, Hussein, etc.

    wasn't that kinda par for the course back then? i mean, human beings in general were brutal back then. columbus was nothing special. in those days if you wanted a village you went in, sacked it, raped the women, burned the homes, and stole all the goods. they did this to each other, not just the native americans. columbus just found new places to do it. by your definition i'd say prior to 16-1700 EVERYONE was on par with hitler and hussein.

    i dont get columbus day though. he wasnt american, not in america, had nothing to do with america, and didn't discover shit.
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    wasn't that kinda par for the course back then? i mean, human beings in general were brutal back then. columbus was nothing special. in those days if you wanted a village you went in, sacked it, raped the women, burned the homes, and stole all the goods. they did this to each other, not just the native americans. columbus just found new places to do it. by your definition i'd say prior to 16-1700 EVERYONE was on par with hitler and hussein.

    i dont get columbus day though. he wasnt american, not in america, had nothing to do with america, and didn't discover shit.


    it's a made up goverment holiday.
    it's a load of shit.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    chadwick wrote:
    it's a made up goverment holiday.
    it's a load of shit.

    aren't all holidays made up by the government?
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