Could you be more damn evasive? What purpose do your posts have here? You've said a lot without actually saying anything.
In case you missed it:
Conservative America understands the following:
1. Mosques and private Muslim schools in America are largely funded by Jihadist Muslim institutions in Saudi Arabia. FACT
2. Over half of all "moderate muslims" believe in some form of Sharia law. FACT
3. Of those "moderate muslims," NONE have lambasted the Jihadist movement. When the whole "Catholic priests were molesting boys" crisis came up, our citizens were out in MASS protest. Where is the same outcry from the "moderate muslims" about the extremists war on us? Where's the "moderate" leadership? (edit: there are anti-jihad wbsites availiable, however far that fact is from the mass rejection of jihad i'm looking for.)
4. Islamic lobbying groups are POUNDING our court system with frivolous lawsuits looking for activist judges who will erode our ability to fight Muslim extremists and rob us of our tax dollars in the process. FACT
straightforward enough for ya?
For more information on this issue, I would suggest a book by Mark Steyn called "America Alone."
if the editors of these Anit-Islamic websites are indeed part of the Muslim
Leadership, you cannot refute that they are doing a piss-poor job of getting their message out.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
1. Mosques and private Muslim schools in America are largely funded by Jihadist Muslim institutions in Saudi Arabia. FACT
2. Over half of all "moderate muslims" believe in some form of Sharia law. FACT
3. Of those "moderate muslims," NONE have lambasted the Jihadist movement. When the whole "Catholic priests were molesting boys" crisis came up, our citizens were out in MASS protest. Where is the same outcry from the "moderate muslims" about the extremists war on us? Where's the "moderate" leadership? (edit: there are anti-jihad wbsites availiable, however far that fact is from the mass rejection of jihad i'm looking for.)
4. Islamic lobbying groups are POUNDING our court system with frivolous lawsuits looking for activist judges who will erode our ability to fight Muslim extremists and rob us of our tax dollars in the process. FACT
straightforward enough for ya?
For more information on this issue, I would suggest a book by Mark Steyn called "America Alone."
Yeah, then you ignore all responses, including those with evidence to counter-argue your points outlined above, with sweeping statements with which you actually made no meaningful points whatsoever.
I fear you lack a basic understanding of both good debate in general and, more specifically, the point of a message board. The purpose is not to outline your particular stance and then refuse to accept anything that dares to contradict it, smugly offering statements like "read this book", as if Mark Steyn is in fact the ultimate authority on all things, rather than an oft-criticised political commentator who, by the very nature of his occupation, serves up opinions, with cleverly constructed spin, as fact in order to disseminate his beliefs.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
if the editors of these Anit-Islamic websites are indeed part of the Muslim
Leadership, you cannot refute that they are doing a piss-poor job of getting their message out.
I would argue that America are doing a piss-poor job in their dealings with muslims. Why should they expect anything different in return?
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
Yeah, then you ignore all responses, including those with evidence to counter-argue your points outlined above, with sweeping statements with which you actually made no meaningful points whatsoever.
I fear you lack a basic understanding of both good debate in general and, more specifically, the point of a message board. The purpose is not to outline your particular stance and then refuse to accept anything that dares to contradict it, smugly offering statements like "read this book", as if Mark Steyn is in fact the ultimate authority on all things, rather than an oft-criticised political commentator who, by the very nature of his occupation, serves up opinions, with cleverly constructed spin, as fact in order to disseminate his beliefs.
the point about the websites was aknowledged...
While I am only a working class person, and have only so many hours in a day
to study politics, I do research this and many other topics quite extensively through a wide lense, using as many resources as I can find, challenging arguments on BOTH sides.
In the future i will make notes on what I read, so I can provide you with a bibliography.
I chose to recomend Mark Steyn's book because it is the most concise agument of the problem that I know of. Not because it's my only source of info.
I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate as to how I'm wrong would you? Or perhaps making vague statements and then ducking out is a method of debate you adhere to strongly, offering as it does no risk of being countered?
Since you asked...
Mark Steyn did not endorse the war. Therefore your premise and conclusions are wrong.
1. Mosques and private Muslim schools in America are largely funded by Jihadist Muslim institutions in Saudi Arabia. FACT
Evidence, please. Saying it's a fact, doesn't make it a fact.
2. Over half of all "moderate muslims" believe in some form of Sharia law. FACT
What problems do you have with sharia law. What form of sharia law are these muslims supporting? Any data on that?
3. Of those "moderate muslims," NONE have lambasted the Jihadist movement. When the whole "Catholic priests were molesting boys" crisis came up, our citizens were out in MASS protest. Where is the same outcry from the "moderate muslims" about the extremists war on us? Where's the "moderate" leadership? (edit: there are anti-jihad wbsites availiable, however far that fact is from the mass rejection of jihad i'm looking for.)
Well, this is still wrong. I'll change it for you:
Of those "moderate muslims," PLENTY have lambasted the Jihadist movement.
The fact that you are not satisfied changes little about the fact that plenty of muslims have been vocal about it.
While I am only a working class person, and have only so many hours in a day
to study politics, I do research this and many other topics quite extensively through a wide lense, using as many resources as I can find, challenging arguments on BOTH sides.
I find it hard to believe that a person who extensively researched both sides can come to the conclusion that there has been no outcry against islamic extremism by the muslims community.
When I offered the first link you called it "obscure", though you should have known that there were countless other Islam organisations against terrorism, that there are many website and articles dealing with the same issues.
So, I don't believe you for a second that you investigated this thoroughly. If you did, than you're sure as hell not presenting your information objectively.
1. is a well-established fact covered quite extensively through television 'exposees' and independent media.
2. find out for yourself, me commenting on that would be highly subjective.
3. read in total, I think the spirit of the statement can not be refuted.
4. you didnt argue 4, so I'll take that as an agreement.
This is the problem with division. we get caught up in all the minutia, the details, trying to find something to argue at every point.
Study the details, challenge things. then at some point you have to step back, look at the whole picture, and give things the smell test. When we learn to do that we'll be able to get some common ground.
Mark Steyn did not endorse the war. Therefore your premise and conclusions are wrong.
Really? I have found so many quotations from this SELF-DESCRIBED "warmonger" that I can't really post them all here without becoming a gratuitous google-machine such as you hold in great contempt. If you don't believe me I suppose I'll have to take the time to cherry pick a few of the more obtuse ones and post them.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
I am offended by this thread. To imply that all conservative American parents are insane is extremely rude.
It compares to me saying that just because you have a family full of druggy losers, all people with Jeremy in their user name comes from a family of druggy losers....
Not very nice or accurate is it?
Steyn was an early proponent of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. In 2007 he reiterated his support while attacking Democrat John Murtha, stating that his plan for military action in Iraq was designed “to deny the president the possibility of victory while making sure Democrats don't have to share the blame for the defeat. … [Murtha] doesn't support them in the mission, but he'd like them to continue failing at it for a couple more years”.[34]
Fair and Balanced, I stand corrected on that point.
Really? I have found so many quotations from this SELF-DESCRIBED "warmonger" that I can't really post them all here without becoming a gratuitous google-machine such as you hold in great contempt. If you don't believe me I suppose I'll have to take the time to cherry pick a few of the more obtuse ones and post them.
I am offended by this thread. To imply that all conservative American parents are insane is extremely rude.
It compares to me saying that just because you have a family full of druggy losers, all people with Jeremy in their user name comes from a family of druggy losers....
Not very nice or accurate is it?
I didn't imply it, I asked a question. I'm not from America. It would be easy to assume from the media that right-wing, republican parents are hysteria-stricken and with a loose grip on reality. I am extremely open to refutations on that matter. I meant no offence and if any was taken, I'm sorry that you misunderstood me.
EDIT. I understand your analogy now. It is still rather poor but fair enough, I already apologised if any offence was caused.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
I didn't imply it, I asked a question. I'm not from America. It would be easy to assume from the media that right-wing, republican parents are hysteria-stricken and with a loose grip on reality. I am extremely open to refutations on that matter. I meant no offense and if any was taken, I'm sorry that you misunderstood me.
However, really your analogy is dire. Since when was there any link between the word Jeremy and drugs? There is, I would suggest, a link between thinking that dolls are trying to corrupt the youth of America and being mentally unhinged. There is no etymological link between the word Jeremy and drugs, not that I know of.
I'm confused
I'm glad you understand and I accept your apology.
And you are right about the media.
1. is a well-established fact covered quite extensively through television 'exposees' and independent media.
1. Show me a link, an article, proof...
2. I asked you what you problems you have with sharia law. "Over half of all "moderate muslims" believe in some form of Sharia law." I think the key words here are "some form". So as long as you don't know "what form" it is they support, I don't see how you can consider this a bad thing, unless of course you immediately assume the worst. If you do know what forms these moderate muslims support, what are your problems with it?
Also, please cite sources for your numbers.
3. I think it can. I live in a multicultural place, I interact with many many muslims from all over the world daily. So far everyone I've had this discussion with is against terrorism in the name of islam. Their views don't necessarily line with America's view, though. And I think this might be the problem for many Americans. Plus, there is actually quite a huge outcry against terrorism in islam's name, but you claim it's hard to find :rolleyes: There have been rallies and protests too, in Europe and in the US.
4. I don't know anything about it, I don't live in the US. I can't comment on it.
Study the details, challenge things. then at some point you have to step back, look at the whole picture, and give things the smell test. When we learn to do that we'll be able to get some common ground.
What better test is there than communicating and interacting with muslims daily?
good points all, the debate on sharia law is probably for another thread.
I could sit here all day long and link every point of fact to some link or other, but I think i'll better serve the readers by asking them to challenge the things I've been talking about. Agree or not.
Collin is correct. In the end the solution is INCLUSION, so I would never discriminate. All individuals should engage eachother in a positive manner, and I fear that belaboring the points even further would give the impression that I don't like any one particular individual because of their heritage.
While I go to Calvary (sometimes), half my family is Mormon and the othe half Jehovy's. I know all about bullshit doctrine on one side, and religious persecution on the other.
Islam is not Islamo-fascism, I will always be mindful of the distinction.
With that I will digress from this thread
2. I asked you what you problems you have with sharia law. "Over half of all "moderate muslims" believe in some form of Sharia law." I think the key words here are "some form". So as long as you don't know "what form" it is they support, I don't see how you can consider this a bad thing, unless of course you immediately assume the worst. If you do know what forms these moderate muslims support, what are your problems with it?
Also, please cite sources for your numbers.
3. I think it can. I live in a multicultural place, I interact with many many muslims from all over the world daily. So far everyone I've had this discussion with is against terrorism in the name of islam. Their views don't necessarily line with America's view, though. And I think this might be the problem for many Americans. Plus, there is actually quite a huge outcry against terrorism in islam's name, but you claim it's hard to find :rolleyes: There have been rallies and protests too, in Europe and in the US.
4. I don't know anything about it, I don't live in the US. I can't comment on it.
What better test is there than communicating and interacting with muslims daily?
Comments
In case you missed it:
Conservative America understands the following:
1. Mosques and private Muslim schools in America are largely funded by Jihadist Muslim institutions in Saudi Arabia. FACT
2. Over half of all "moderate muslims" believe in some form of Sharia law. FACT
3. Of those "moderate muslims," NONE have lambasted the Jihadist movement. When the whole "Catholic priests were molesting boys" crisis came up, our citizens were out in MASS protest. Where is the same outcry from the "moderate muslims" about the extremists war on us? Where's the "moderate" leadership? (edit: there are anti-jihad wbsites availiable, however far that fact is from the mass rejection of jihad i'm looking for.)
4. Islamic lobbying groups are POUNDING our court system with frivolous lawsuits looking for activist judges who will erode our ability to fight Muslim extremists and rob us of our tax dollars in the process. FACT
straightforward enough for ya?
For more information on this issue, I would suggest a book by Mark Steyn called "America Alone."
if the editors of these Anit-Islamic websites are indeed part of the Muslim
Leadership, you cannot refute that they are doing a piss-poor job of getting their message out.
Honest question.
I fear you lack a basic understanding of both good debate in general and, more specifically, the point of a message board. The purpose is not to outline your particular stance and then refuse to accept anything that dares to contradict it, smugly offering statements like "read this book", as if Mark Steyn is in fact the ultimate authority on all things, rather than an oft-criticised political commentator who, by the very nature of his occupation, serves up opinions, with cleverly constructed spin, as fact in order to disseminate his beliefs.
the point about the websites was aknowledged...
While I am only a working class person, and have only so many hours in a day
to study politics, I do research this and many other topics quite extensively through a wide lense, using as many resources as I can find, challenging arguments on BOTH sides.
In the future i will make notes on what I read, so I can provide you with a bibliography.
I chose to recomend Mark Steyn's book because it is the most concise agument of the problem that I know of. Not because it's my only source of info.
Since you asked...
Mark Steyn did not endorse the war. Therefore your premise and conclusions are wrong.
Evidence, please. Saying it's a fact, doesn't make it a fact.
What problems do you have with sharia law. What form of sharia law are these muslims supporting? Any data on that?
Well, this is still wrong. I'll change it for you:
Of those "moderate muslims," PLENTY have lambasted the Jihadist movement.
The fact that you are not satisfied changes little about the fact that plenty of muslims have been vocal about it.
naděje umírá poslední
I find it hard to believe that a person who extensively researched both sides can come to the conclusion that there has been no outcry against islamic extremism by the muslims community.
When I offered the first link you called it "obscure", though you should have known that there were countless other Islam organisations against terrorism, that there are many website and articles dealing with the same issues.
So, I don't believe you for a second that you investigated this thoroughly. If you did, than you're sure as hell not presenting your information objectively.
naděje umírá poslední
2. find out for yourself, me commenting on that would be highly subjective.
3. read in total, I think the spirit of the statement can not be refuted.
4. you didnt argue 4, so I'll take that as an agreement.
This is the problem with division. we get caught up in all the minutia, the details, trying to find something to argue at every point.
Study the details, challenge things. then at some point you have to step back, look at the whole picture, and give things the smell test. When we learn to do that we'll be able to get some common ground.
It compares to me saying that just because you have a family full of druggy losers, all people with Jeremy in their user name comes from a family of druggy losers....
Not very nice or accurate is it?
Steyn was an early proponent of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. In 2007 he reiterated his support while attacking Democrat John Murtha, stating that his plan for military action in Iraq was designed “to deny the president the possibility of victory while making sure Democrats don't have to share the blame for the defeat. … [Murtha] doesn't support them in the mission, but he'd like them to continue failing at it for a couple more years”.[34]
Fair and Balanced, I stand corrected on that point.
EDIT. I understand your analogy now. It is still rather poor but fair enough, I already apologised if any offence was caused.
I'm glad you understand and I accept your apology.
And you are right about the media.
1. Show me a link, an article, proof...
2. I asked you what you problems you have with sharia law. "Over half of all "moderate muslims" believe in some form of Sharia law." I think the key words here are "some form". So as long as you don't know "what form" it is they support, I don't see how you can consider this a bad thing, unless of course you immediately assume the worst. If you do know what forms these moderate muslims support, what are your problems with it?
Also, please cite sources for your numbers.
3. I think it can. I live in a multicultural place, I interact with many many muslims from all over the world daily. So far everyone I've had this discussion with is against terrorism in the name of islam. Their views don't necessarily line with America's view, though. And I think this might be the problem for many Americans. Plus, there is actually quite a huge outcry against terrorism in islam's name, but you claim it's hard to find :rolleyes: There have been rallies and protests too, in Europe and in the US.
4. I don't know anything about it, I don't live in the US. I can't comment on it.
What better test is there than communicating and interacting with muslims daily?
naděje umírá poslední
I could sit here all day long and link every point of fact to some link or other, but I think i'll better serve the readers by asking them to challenge the things I've been talking about. Agree or not.
Collin is correct. In the end the solution is INCLUSION, so I would never discriminate. All individuals should engage eachother in a positive manner, and I fear that belaboring the points even further would give the impression that I don't like any one particular individual because of their heritage.
While I go to Calvary (sometimes), half my family is Mormon and the othe half Jehovy's. I know all about bullshit doctrine on one side, and religious persecution on the other.
Islam is not Islamo-fascism, I will always be mindful of the distinction.
With that I will digress from this thread