State Capitol - Menorah OK, Nativity Scene Not

Uncle Leo

Skitch Patterson wrote:

please tell me you're kidding.

Kidding?

No. No kidding. If you were mean that you were joking, that occured to me, but you can't always tell on this medium.

Skitch Patterson

Uncle Leo wrote:

Kidding?

No. No kidding. If you were mean that you were joking, that occured to me, but you can't always tell on this medium.

I was.

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

Me either. Nor a tree or a menorah or anything else.

My point is that your previous post telling people to stop worrying about it so much could very easily be applied to the things people whine so much about like prayer in schools or the 10 Commandments at a courthouse. I do not think those violate the Constitution either.

this is a little different. a holiday display you drive past and wave. we send out kids to be educated, not indoctrinated in religious faith. they are a "captive" audience. ditto for courts, there's no way to "avoid" it if it is offensive or uncomfortable for you.

SweetHarmonics

Hilariously ridiculous

What a fitting sign of the times.

Cosmo

And people wonder why I reject large organized religions of all kinds... it's not the message of the religions I reject... it's the punk-ass bitches in those religions that bitch and cry about symbols related to their religions.
And as far as 'Church and State' goes... I don't want you punk-ass bitches making laws based upon your warped beliefs of what YOU believe God wants me to be or do.. be it Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or Santeria or Wicca or whatever. Follow the laws of your own churches, but keep my ass out of it because I reject you all.

the face

know1 wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/21/washington.nativity.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Here's the most telling line from the story in my opinion:

"Steve Valandra, a spokesman for the Department of General Administration, said officials were concerned that in comparison with a tree or menorah, a Nativity scene might carry a stronger impression of government endorsement of religion."

It seems this spokesman is admitting that the tree is a religious symbol, but it's just not a strong religious symbol.

What happened to the so-called separation of church and state?

(and I have no problem with any and all religions having displays on government property...I'm just posing the question)

Obviously your not a fan of the 1st amendment then...

the face

hippiemom wrote:

A menorah is definitely a religious symbol. I've never heard of anyone who isn't Jewish having a menorah out during the holidays, just as I've never heard of anyone who isn't Christian having a nativity. Trees, on the other hand ... there are people of all faiths and no faith at all who decorate trees this time of year. Sure, they started with the pagans and for a long time were seen as a Christian thing, but now I see them as seasonal decorations, no more religious than snowmen or candy canes.

If the menorah stays, the nativity should stay too. And I agree, people fighting about this have way too much time on their hands.

On the other hand, I find the ten commandments quite offensive, particularly in courthouses, which is where people typically want them posted. And I definitely don't think my kids should be forced to sit through prayers, even if they don't have to participate. If other children need to pray at the start of every day, they can do it over breakfast with their parents.

Further, we are not just a county of 2 religions. Why not something honoring Ramadan then at the Capitol? Or a statue of Buddha? Personally I think if you are going to have a separtion of church and state, you need to enforce it strictly. Everyone or no one.

hippiemom

the face wrote:

Further, we are not just a county of 2 religions. Why not something honoring Ramadan then at the Capitol? Or a statue of Buddha? Personally I think if you are going to have a separtion of church and state, you need to enforce it strictly. Everyone or no one.

I absolutely agree that if public space is made available to one group, it needs to be made available to all. Jews and Christians are what came up in this context because they are the ones asking for December displays, but if Muslims, Buddhists, Satanists, Wiccans, atheists, Druids, Sikhs, or anyone else comes along during other times of the year, they should be treated the same way.

the face

hippiemom wrote:

I absolutely agree that if public space is made available to one group, it needs to be made available to all. Jews and Christians are what came up in this context because they are the ones asking for December displays, but if Muslims, Buddhists, Satanists, Wiccans, atheists, Druids, Sikhs, or anyone else comes along during other times of the year, they should be treated the same way.

Whats the solution? How bout enforce that separation of church and state. And if a Christmas tree were considered a religous symbol under the law I doubt you'd find one in front of the White House. I don't think they had fir trees in the Middle East 2000 years ago....Nativity scene is a little more touchy though.

hippiemom

the face wrote:

Whats the solution? How bout enforce that separation of church and state. And if a Christmas tree were considered a religous symbol under the law I doubt you'd find one in front of the White House. I don't think they had fir trees in the Middle East 2000 years ago....Nativity scene is a little more touchy though.

Honestly? I don't give a fuck. It's a holiday display. I don't want taxpayer funds spent on it, but if a local group wants to put one in front of city hall, I don't care. If it bugs me, I won't look at it. Shit, you should see the house across the street ... I try not to look at that ... it ain't easy, but nothing they put up at city hall could be any more obnoxious. It's a few weeks out of the year, if it makes them happy I'm willing to look the other way. And if city hall decides they want no displays of any kind, that doesn't bother me either.

I have a big problem with discriminatory treatment, so if the space is made available to one group but not to all, that's a problem. If it's available to everyone, and not everyone chooses to use it, that's fine. The "solution" is for everybody to lighten to fuck up.