State Capitol - Menorah OK, Nativity Scene Not
know1
Posts: 6,794
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/21/washington.nativity.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
Here's the most telling line from the story in my opinion:
"Steve Valandra, a spokesman for the Department of General Administration, said officials were concerned that in comparison with a tree or menorah, a Nativity scene might carry a stronger impression of government endorsement of religion."
It seems this spokesman is admitting that the tree is a religious symbol, but it's just not a strong religious symbol.
What happened to the so-called separation of church and state?
(and I have no problem with any and all religions having displays on government property...I'm just posing the question)
Here's the most telling line from the story in my opinion:
"Steve Valandra, a spokesman for the Department of General Administration, said officials were concerned that in comparison with a tree or menorah, a Nativity scene might carry a stronger impression of government endorsement of religion."
It seems this spokesman is admitting that the tree is a religious symbol, but it's just not a strong religious symbol.
What happened to the so-called separation of church and state?
(and I have no problem with any and all religions having displays on government property...I'm just posing the question)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Is a menorah as religious as a tree or as religious as a nativity scene? My guess is somewhere in between. So they have drawn the line between Menorah and Nativity Scene.
Part of me says "just put up a lit up tree in the conventional 'secular' Christmas spirit and be done." A Menorah to me says "Judaism." But then again, a tree may say "Christianity" to Jews.
Any Jewish people on here that can provide the "religious" vs. "festive" symbolism of a Menorah?
The menorah is symbolic of the candleabrum used in the Temple. It is used in Hanukkah as an observance of the miracle of the lights when the Temple was desecrated by the Babylonians. The only undesecrated oil left was supposed to be enough for one day, but it burned for eight days. That's why most menorahs have 9 holders - 1 for the main light, and 8 for each day.
It's a religious symbol, and this ruling was wrong, plain and simple. The law is set up now as an "all or nothing" law.
A tree is not a religious symbol - one appropriated by many churches, perhaps, but not in and of itself. The same cannot be said of a menorah (with all due respect to the Jewish culture).
THAT is the actual telling line. The time issue is being thrown up as a smokescreen. Alas, any further ruling will in fact be too late, so lucky them, I suppose.
I thought the tree was a pagan symbol...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Would there be a more 'secular' Hanukkah symbol, that could be used altenatively, in the way that people consider the Christmas tree a more secular symbol?
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
My favourite comprimise was a Christmas tree with the star of david on top!
...or the separation of church and state...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
To me placing a nativity scene in front of town hall doesn't constitute a breach in the seperation of church and state.
Me either. Nor a tree or a menorah or anything else.
My point is that your previous post telling people to stop worrying about it so much could very easily be applied to the things people whine so much about like prayer in schools or the 10 Commandments at a courthouse. I do not think those violate the Constitution either.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=492&invol=573
I guess these are very touchy subjects to some people, and I'm sure that everybody has their own take on them.
I'm not sure of the view of the menorah as a secular symbol ...celebrating the season like the christmas tree. I guess it may depend on the placement, and maybe specific attributes of the menorah.
The 10 commandements don't bother me so much. The prayer in school does only if it is forced on students.
Then we have similar views.
I take a strict interpretation. I think that unless Congress is making a law that either promotes or bans a specific religion, none of those other things are a violation of the Constitution.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Of Oklahoma, this is Washington
(I think you saw the "OK" in the subject)
If the menorah stays, the nativity should stay too. And I agree, people fighting about this have way too much time on their hands.
On the other hand, I find the ten commandments quite offensive, particularly in courthouses, which is where people typically want them posted. And I definitely don't think my kids should be forced to sit through prayers, even if they don't have to participate. If other children need to pray at the start of every day, they can do it over breakfast with their parents.
I second this.
please tell me you're kidding.
Heh, good call
Here is Carlin on the 10 commandments:
http://www.georgecarlin.com/mp3/George%20Carlin%20-%20When%20Will%20Jesus%20Bring%20the%20Pork%20Chops%20-%20The%20Ten%20Commandments.mp3
Pretty funny IMO.
No. No kidding. If you were mean that you were joking, that occured to me, but you can't always tell on this medium.
I was.
this is a little different. a holiday display you drive past and wave. we send out kids to be educated, not indoctrinated in religious faith. they are a "captive" audience. ditto for courts, there's no way to "avoid" it if it is offensive or uncomfortable for you.
What a fitting sign of the times.
And as far as 'Church and State' goes... I don't want you punk-ass bitches making laws based upon your warped beliefs of what YOU believe God wants me to be or do.. be it Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or Santeria or Wicca or whatever. Follow the laws of your own churches, but keep my ass out of it because I reject you all.
Hail, Hail!!!
Obviously your not a fan of the 1st amendment then...
Further, we are not just a county of 2 religions. Why not something honoring Ramadan then at the Capitol? Or a statue of Buddha? Personally I think if you are going to have a separtion of church and state, you need to enforce it strictly. Everyone or no one.
I have a big problem with discriminatory treatment, so if the space is made available to one group but not to all, that's a problem. If it's available to everyone, and not everyone chooses to use it, that's fine. The "solution" is for everybody to lighten to fuck up.