State Capitol - Menorah OK, Nativity Scene Not

know1
know1 Posts: 6,801
edited December 2006 in A Moving Train
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/21/washington.nativity.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Here's the most telling line from the story in my opinion:

"Steve Valandra, a spokesman for the Department of General Administration, said officials were concerned that in comparison with a tree or menorah, a Nativity scene might carry a stronger impression of government endorsement of religion."

It seems this spokesman is admitting that the tree is a religious symbol, but it's just not a strong religious symbol.

What happened to the so-called separation of church and state?

(and I have no problem with any and all religions having displays on government property...I'm just posing the question)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.

Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
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Comments

  • Uncle Leo
    Uncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    This is why the governments need to shy away from putting religious things up.

    Is a menorah as religious as a tree or as religious as a nativity scene? My guess is somewhere in between. So they have drawn the line between Menorah and Nativity Scene.

    Part of me says "just put up a lit up tree in the conventional 'secular' Christmas spirit and be done." A Menorah to me says "Judaism." But then again, a tree may say "Christianity" to Jews.

    Any Jewish people on here that can provide the "religious" vs. "festive" symbolism of a Menorah?
    I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
  • dkst0426
    dkst0426 Posts: 523
    I'm not Jewish, but I do know Old Testament history:

    The menorah is symbolic of the candleabrum used in the Temple. It is used in Hanukkah as an observance of the miracle of the lights when the Temple was desecrated by the Babylonians. The only undesecrated oil left was supposed to be enough for one day, but it burned for eight days. That's why most menorahs have 9 holders - 1 for the main light, and 8 for each day.

    It's a religious symbol, and this ruling was wrong, plain and simple. The law is set up now as an "all or nothing" law.

    A tree is not a religious symbol - one appropriated by many churches, perhaps, but not in and of itself. The same cannot be said of a menorah (with all due respect to the Jewish culture).
    Lawyers for the state felt there was insufficient time to fully research the issue, he said.

    "Based on that, without having more time, we had to say no," Valandra said.
    THAT is the actual telling line. The time issue is being thrown up as a smokescreen. Alas, any further ruling will in fact be too late, so lucky them, I suppose.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    dkst0426 wrote:
    A tree is not a religious symbol - one appropriated by many churches, perhaps, but not in and of itself. The same cannot be said of a menorah (with all due respect to the Jewish culture).

    I thought the tree was a pagan symbol...
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • JaneNY
    JaneNY Posts: 4,438
    I don't celebrate either holiday, but its my feeling that if a Menorah is okay, so is a Nativity scene.


    Would there be a more 'secular' Hanukkah symbol, that could be used altenatively, in the way that people consider the Christmas tree a more secular symbol?
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  • keeponrockin
    keeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    JaneNY wrote:
    I don't celebrate either holiday, but its my feeling that if a Menorah is okay, so is a Nativity scene.


    Would there be a more 'secular' Hanukkah symbol, that could be used altenatively, in the way that people consider the Christmas tree a more secular symbol?

    My favourite comprimise was a Christmas tree with the star of david on top!
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    You know this is all getting so damn ridiculous. Why can't people just enjoy the holiday season/ Who the fuck cares if the state capital building or the town hall has a nativity scene in front of it or a menorah but not a christmas tree. Does that plastic baby Jesus really impact you r life so much that it hasto be removed. I don't believe in Christianity or Judeaism and to tell you the truth I couldn't care less in the New Jersey state capital building had a 50 foot tall light up nativity scene, that could be seen from space, and a menorah the size of a skyscraper. It has no impact on my life or the manner in which I celebrate my holiday. People need to get a fucking grip. Shut up and drink some fucking egg nog. This rant is in now way directed at anyone on this board, just the fucking idiots who have to fight over nativity scenes, menorahs, and Santa Claus.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    mammasan wrote:
    You know this is all getting so damn ridiculous. Why can't people just enjoy the holiday season/ Who the fuck cares if the state capital building or the town hall has a nativity scene in front of it or a menorah but not a christmas tree. Does that plastic baby Jesus really impact you r life so much that it hasto be removed. I don't believe in Christianity or Judeaism and to tell you the truth I couldn't care less in the New Jersey state capital building had a 50 foot tall light up nativity scene, that could be seen from space, and a menorah the size of a skyscraper. It has no impact on my life or the manner in which I celebrate my holiday. People need to get a fucking grip. Shut up and drink some fucking egg nog. This rant is in now way directed at anyone on this board, just the fucking idiots who have to fight over nativity scenes, menorahs, and Santa Claus.

    ...or the separation of church and state...
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    know1 wrote:
    ...or the separation of church and state...


    To me placing a nativity scene in front of town hall doesn't constitute a breach in the seperation of church and state.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    mammasan wrote:
    To me placing a nativity scene in front of town hall doesn't constitute a breach in the seperation of church and state.

    Me either. Nor a tree or a menorah or anything else.

    My point is that your previous post telling people to stop worrying about it so much could very easily be applied to the things people whine so much about like prayer in schools or the 10 Commandments at a courthouse. I do not think those violate the Constitution either.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,827
    mammasan wrote:
    You know this is all getting so damn ridiculous. Why can't people just enjoy the holiday season/ Who the fuck cares if the state capital building or the town hall has a nativity scene in front of it or a menorah but not a christmas tree. Does that plastic baby Jesus really impact you r life so much that it hasto be removed. I don't believe in Christianity or Judeaism and to tell you the truth I couldn't care less in the New Jersey state capital building had a 50 foot tall light up nativity scene, that could be seen from space, and a menorah the size of a skyscraper. It has no impact on my life or the manner in which I celebrate my holiday. People need to get a fucking grip. Shut up and drink some fucking egg nog. This rant is in now way directed at anyone on this board, just the fucking idiots who have to fight over nativity scenes, menorahs, and Santa Claus.[/quote
    i 2nd & 3rd that, it really is getting out of control with who gets insulted by any of this crap just enjoy the holidays wich ever one you need to celebrate fucking morons all over this country .........
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • WMA
    WMA Posts: 175
    The same thing has happened before:

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=492&invol=573
    2. When viewed in its overall context, the creche display violates the Establishment Clause. The creche angel's words endorse a patently Christian message: Glory to God for the birth of Jesus Christ. Moreover, in contrast to Lynch, nothing in the creche's setting detracts from that message. Although the government may acknowledge Christmas as a cultural phenomenon, it may not observe it as a Christian holy day by suggesting that people praise God for the birth of Jesus. Pp. 598-602.
    JUSTICE BLACKMUN concluded in Part VI that the menorah display does not have the prohibited effect of endorsing religion, given its "particular physical setting." Its combined display with a Christmas tree and a sign saluting liberty does not impermissibly endorse both the Christian and Jewish faiths, but simply recognizes that both Christmas and Chanukah are part of the same winter-holiday season, which has attained a secular status in our society. The widely accepted view of the Christmas tree as the preeminent secular symbol of the Christmas season emphasizes this point. The tree, moreover, by virtue of its size and central position in the display, is clearly the predominant element, and the placement of the menorah beside it is readily understood as simply a recognition that Christmas is not the only traditional way of celebrating the season. The absence of a more secular alternative to the menorah negates the inference of endorsement. Similarly, the presence of the mayor's sign confirms that in the particular context the government's association with a religious symbol does not represent sponsorship of religious beliefs but simply a recognition of cultural diversity. Given all these considerations, it is not sufficiently likely that a reasonable observer would view the combined display as an endorsement or disapproval of his individual religious choices. Pp. 613-621.
    JUSTICE O'CONNOR also concluded that the city's display of a menorah, together with a Christmas tree and a sign saluting liberty, does not violate the Establishment Clause. The Christmas tree, whatever its origins, is widely viewed today as a secular symbol of the Christmas holiday. Although there may be certain secular aspects to Chanukah, it is primarily a religious holiday and the menorah its central religious symbol and ritual object. By including the menorah with the tree, however, and with the sign saluting liberty, the city conveyed a message of pluralism and freedom of belief during the holiday season, which, in this particular physical setting, could not be interpreted by a [492 U.S. 573, 576] reasonable observer as an endorsement of Judaism or Christianity or disapproval of alternative beliefs. Pp. 632-637.

    I guess these are very touchy subjects to some people, and I'm sure that everybody has their own take on them.

    I'm not sure of the view of the menorah as a secular symbol ...celebrating the season like the christmas tree. I guess it may depend on the placement, and maybe specific attributes of the menorah.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    know1 wrote:
    Me either. Nor a tree or a menorah or anything else.

    My point is that your previous post telling people to stop worrying about it so much could very easily be applied to the things people whine so much about like prayer in schools or the 10 Commandments at a courthouse. I do not think those violate the Constitution either.

    The 10 commandements don't bother me so much. The prayer in school does only if it is forced on students.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    mammasan wrote:
    The 10 commandements don't bother me so much. The prayer in school does only if it is forced on students.

    Then we have similar views.

    I take a strict interpretation. I think that unless Congress is making a law that either promotes or bans a specific religion, none of those other things are a violation of the Constitution.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Skitch Patterson
    Skitch Patterson Posts: 642
    I thought the capital was Oklahoma City.
  • Uncle Leo
    Uncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    Skitch Patterson wrote:
    I thought the capital was Oklahoma City.

    Of Oklahoma, this is Washington

    (I think you saw the "OK" in the subject)
    I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    A menorah is definitely a religious symbol. I've never heard of anyone who isn't Jewish having a menorah out during the holidays, just as I've never heard of anyone who isn't Christian having a nativity. Trees, on the other hand ... there are people of all faiths and no faith at all who decorate trees this time of year. Sure, they started with the pagans and for a long time were seen as a Christian thing, but now I see them as seasonal decorations, no more religious than snowmen or candy canes.

    If the menorah stays, the nativity should stay too. And I agree, people fighting about this have way too much time on their hands.

    On the other hand, I find the ten commandments quite offensive, particularly in courthouses, which is where people typically want them posted. And I definitely don't think my kids should be forced to sit through prayers, even if they don't have to participate. If other children need to pray at the start of every day, they can do it over breakfast with their parents.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    I'd prefer a Statue of George Carlin.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • keeponrockin
    keeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'd prefer a Statue of George Carlin.

    I second this.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • Skitch Patterson
    Skitch Patterson Posts: 642
    Uncle Leo wrote:
    Of Oklahoma, this is Washington

    (I think you saw the "OK" in the subject)


    please tell me you're kidding.
  • WMA
    WMA Posts: 175
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'd prefer a Statue of George Carlin.

    Heh, good call :)

    Here is Carlin on the 10 commandments:

    http://www.georgecarlin.com/mp3/George%20Carlin%20-%20When%20Will%20Jesus%20Bring%20the%20Pork%20Chops%20-%20The%20Ten%20Commandments.mp3

    Pretty funny IMO.

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