PM Harper: "Liberal Candidates Anti-Israel"

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  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    polaris wrote:
    the question is whether or not the people who voted conservatives as a protest to liberal mismanagement go back ...

    Its a good question ... I think it will depend a lot on how Harper conducts himself over the next while. Personally, I'm still on the fence. Waiting to see what Harper does in response to Layton's actions, waiting to see who becomes Liberal leader and what the policies there will look like.
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    Most of your points are debatable. Less debatable is your first one about the current government "not doing much". I actually agree, the government is focusing largely on day-to-day running of the country, as opposed to working radical new policies into the Canadian fabric. In this, its not so different from the plethora of Liberal and Con governments we've seen since MacDonald.
    If Harper had a majority, maybe things would be different. Like I said before, I'm fairly happy with the situation. The Liberals got the message they deserved to get, but Harper isn't in a position to do anything too drastic.

    what have they done ... their biggest piece of legislation (the accountability act) is not gonna reach ascension, the clean air act is a joke, they want to reopen gay marriage (bad idea), scrap gun laws (also not popular), they refuse to deal with the fiscal imbalance (which they promised) and they aren't speaking to reporters ...

    really, what have they done except cut taxes and socio-enviro programs?
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    polaris wrote:
    so, whatever it takes to turn voters off the topic is in their best interests ... the liberals are useless until they elect a leader ...
    Given the Liberals vying for leadership I'd say the Liberals will be uselss for years to come.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    surferdude wrote:
    Given the Liberals vying for leadership I'd say the Liberals will be uselss for years to come.

    i do agree with this ... except ultimately, the party that best represents canadians (not me) are the liberals ... people are comfortable there - not where harper is nor where layton is ... however, they do demand "honest" gov't ... so, really - they just need someone who has the wit to capture the trust of canadians ...
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    polaris wrote:
    what have they done ... their biggest piece of legislation (the accountability act) is not gonna reach ascension, the clean air act is a joke, they want to reopen gay marriage (bad idea), scrap gun laws (also not popular), they refuse to deal with the fiscal imbalance (which they promised) and they aren't speaking to reporters ...

    really, what have they done except cut taxes and socio-enviro programs?

    They haven't done much, except cut taxes a bit. That's all that they are in a position to do, really. The gun registry should be scrapped, now. It hasn't been because Harper actually agreed to play ball and not just toss it without taking the motion to Parliament, where people's understanding of criminal justice issues is really quite weak. I agree that even going toward re-opening gay marriage is a bad, bad idea. The accountability act has some merit, I would argue ... Again, though. The Libs aren't going to go for it, which is more than a little ironic, and voters aren't educated enough to take them to task over it.
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    They haven't done much, except cut taxes a bit. That's all that they are in a position to do, really. The gun registry should be scrapped, now. It hasn't been because Harper actually agreed to play ball and not just toss it without taking the motion to Parliament, where people's understanding of criminal justice issues is really quite weak. I agree that even going toward re-opening gay marriage is a bad, bad idea. The accountability act has some merit, I would argue ... Again, though. The Libs aren't going to go for it, which is more than a little ironic, and voters aren't educated enough to take them to task over it.

    the gun registry is a boondoggle however, its purpose is not ... there is no reason for everyday canadians to be owning assault rifles ... scrapping altogether is not doing anything to address problems - its merely symbolic gesture to the liberals and the way they handled it ...

    the accountability act is horrible - the integrity commissioner has already said that it actually makes gov't less transparent then it already is ... way too many things the gov't doesn't have to disclose ... read up on it ... its a horrible act ...

    from an ontario perspective - this is what we see ... a gov't that refuses to make the transfer payments they promised a year ago; refusing to deal with a native land claim dispute; refusing to deal with things with the province due to pettiness ...
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    polaris wrote:
    the gun registry is a boondoggle however, its purpose is not ... there is no reason for everyday canadians to be owning assault rifles ... scrapping altogether is not doing anything to address problems - its merely symbolic gesture to the liberals and the way they handled it ...

    the accountability act is horrible - the integrity commissioner has already said that it actually makes gov't less transparent then it already is ... way too many things the gov't doesn't have to disclose ... read up on it ... its a horrible act ...

    from an ontario perspective - this is what we see ... a gov't that refuses to make the transfer payments they promised a year ago; refusing to deal with a native land claim dispute; refusing to deal with things with the province due to pettiness ...

    I agree, the Accountability act is a case of some good ideas mixed with a lot of crap. What's discouraging is the fact that the Libs will likely toss the whole idea, rather than trying to fix things up and push ahead.
    The gun registry has nothing to do with assault rifles, which are already banned under a different piece of legislation. People don't want to scrap all gun controls ... They want to scrap aspects that are ineffective and a waste of money.
    Ontario? I seriously doubt that Native land claims have anything to do with why they mistrust Harper. You might be on to something with the sense of pettiness, but its hard to have much sympathy when the shoe has been on the other foot for so damn long. Liberal PMs from the East have a long, long history of disdaining the West; Chretian was a notable example. You guys wonder why people out here vote the way the do?
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    I agree, the Accountability act is a case of some good ideas mixed with a lot of crap. What's discouraging is the fact that the Libs will likely toss the whole idea, rather than trying to fix things up and push ahead.
    The gun registry has nothing to do with assault rifles, which are already banned under a different piece of legislation. People don't want to scrap all gun controls ... They want to scrap aspects that are ineffective and a waste of money.
    Ontario? I seriously doubt that Native land claims have anything to do with why they mistrust Harper. You might be on to something with the sense of pettiness, but its hard to have much sympathy when the shoe has been on the other foot for so damn long. Liberal PMs from the East have a long, long history of disdaining the West; Chretian was a notable example. You guys wonder why people out here vote the way the do?

    they want to scrap the whole gun thing - not rework it ...

    no, we have a recent tory history here which is the real reason why we don't trust harper ... however, they are not dealing with this land claim that is causing problems because of a perceived pettiness over our gov't calling them out on their lack of action ...

    regardless of east/west ... when you voted for him - did you not vote for something above that?? ... i've voted liberal the same number of times i've voted conservative ... once each ... so, i don't disagree with the history ...

    but, right now - two wrongs don't make a right ... and given the position of being a minority gov't ... it would go along way to set aside historical partisanships and actually do some fucking work ...
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    polaris wrote:
    they want to scrap the whole gun thing - not rework it ...

    no, we have a recent tory history here which is the real reason why we don't trust harper ... however, they are not dealing with this land claim that is causing problems because of a perceived pettiness over our gov't calling them out on their lack of action ...

    regardless of east/west ... when you voted for him - did you not vote for something above that?? ... i've voted liberal the same number of times i've voted conservative ... once each ... so, i don't disagree with the history ...

    but, right now - two wrongs don't make a right ... and given the position of being a minority gov't ... it would go along way to set aside historical partisanships and actually do some fucking work ...

    And it should be scrapped, because its a junk idea. There are other ways of dealing with violent crime rates.
    And yes, I voted that way because I liked many of the policies, not because of this huge hate on for the East.
  • They haven't done much, except cut taxes a bit. That's all that they are in a position to do, really. The gun registry should be scrapped, now. It hasn't been because Harper actually agreed to play ball and not just toss it without taking the motion to Parliament, where people's understanding of criminal justice issues is really quite weak. I agree that even going toward re-opening gay marriage is a bad, bad idea. The accountability act has some merit, I would argue ... Again, though. The Libs aren't going to go for it, which is more than a little ironic, and voters aren't educated enough to take them to task over it.

    Okay of all the fear smearing done to the Tories you have to admit their flirtation with the "Defence of Religion Act" kinda fell in the same fear storyline....when I think of this act I think of those letters I read when I lived in Calgary saying that gay marriage is enough reason for Alberta to seperate...to me the Conservatives are a very intolerant party that try to shove their social views in your face instead of taking the route of choice and actual speration of church and state.....

    The single reason I will never vote for this party is my complete 100% disagreement with them on social issues....I see them as a prehistoric party (socially that is) that is far from progressive.....would I like the finacial side of government to be a little more Conservative....yes....but the merit for that is greatly outweighed by what I view as more important and that is social issues that affect every Canadian the same way.....
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Okay of all the fear smearing done to the Tories you have to admit their flirtation with the "Defence of Religion Act" kinda fell in the same fear storyline....when I think of this act I think of those letters I read when I lived in Calgary saying that gay marriage is enough reason for Alberta to seperate...to me the Conservatives are a very intolerant party that try to shove their social views in your face instead of taking the route of choice and actual speration of church and state.....

    The single reason I will never vote for this party is my complete 100% disagreement with them on social issues....I see them as a prehistoric party (socially that is) that is far from progressive.....would I like the finacial side of government to be a little more Conservative....yes....but the merit for that is greatly outweighed by what I view as more important and that is social issues that affect every Canadian the same way.....
    Given Canada's Charter of Rights the "Defence of Religion Act" is necessary. Without it church's could be sued in Human Right Tribunals and court for not performing gay marriage.

    The Liberal's were the ones who kept church and state tied together. After all how many other legal documents can you have a minister sign on behalf of the government. The Liberals had a chance to make marriage a ceremy with no legal rights and obligations for church use only, while making unions a the government legal document open to straight, gay, and poly unions. The NDP voted to keep church and state tied together on the marriage issue by backing the Liberals. All the Conservatives are trying to do, given the government mandated mingling of church and state when it comes to marriage, is to allow churches to limit the performance of marriages ceremonies as they see fit.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdude wrote:
    Given Canada's Charter of Rights the "Defence of Religion Act" is necessary. Without it church's could be sued in Human Right Tribunals and court for not performing gay marriage.

    The Liberal's were the ones who kept church and state tied together. After all how many other legal documents can you have a minister sign on behalf of the government. The Liberals had a chance to make marriage a ceremy with no legal rights and obligations for church use only, while making unions a the government legal document open to straight, gay, and poly unions. The NDP voted to keep church and state tied together on the marriage issue by backing the Liberals. All the Conservatives are trying to do, given the government mandated mingling of church and state when it comes to marriage, is to allow churches to limit the performance of marriages ceremonies as they see fit.

    You forgot to mention given public (aka government) officials the option to not perform a gay marriage which is completly wrong and that is what I disagree with....funny whatever happened to this ass paper rag of legislation....I think it hit the back-burner after the obivious displeasure it created.....

    I presonally don't mind when these Tory back-benchers, who are gagged half the time, create some sort of construed piece of crap legislation like this....to the Conservatives I say this "Get over it already"...."the horse is beaten and mutilated, just please give it up"....
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    You forgot to mention given public (aka government) officials the option to not perform a gay marriage which is completly wrong and that is what I disagree with....
    I agree with you here, the government employees should be required to perform a gay marriage. I also believe that a big chunk of Canada Post needs to be fired for recently refusing to delivery literature that they found offensive.

    But I thought the "Defense of Religion Act" was aimed squarely at protecting churches from Human Rights complaints for not performing gay marriages.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Don't worry, someone will be speaking for Canada in Nairobi, and i'm not talking about the "Canadian" Environment Minister...


    Quebec is heading to Kenya for climate change talks
    Last Updated: Wednesday, November 8, 2006 | 2:30 PM ET
    CBC News

    Quebec Environment Minister Claude Béchard is confident Ottawa will acknowledge the province's position on the Kyoto accord at an international conference in Kenya — and if it doesn't, he vows to speak up himself.

    Hundreds of countries are gathered in Nairobi, Kenya, for the second round of climate change talks for the parties to the Kyoto Protocol.

    Béchard is travelling as part of the Canadian delegation to Nairobi to defend the Kyoto accord, and reiterate Quebec's support for its targets, even if Canada has backed away from the deal.

    "In Canada there are some questions, some doubt about Kyoto. For us there is no doubt," Béchard said.

    The Quebec minister says he spoke with federal Environment Minister Rona Ambrose prior to the meeting, in the hopes of finding a common position that would include Quebec's view on climate change.

    Béchard is expecting Ambrose to acknowledge that Quebec has a different view on greenhouse gas emission reduction.

    "We will be there to speak to the rest of the world about our position, about our plan, and to speak about the Canadian position, which will include the Quebec position," he said.

    If she doesn't, Béchard said he would meet with other state and provincial leaders in private talks, to spread the word about Quebec's plan on greenhouse gas emission reduction.

    Ottawa has said Quebec's climate change plan is too expensive for what it claims it can accomplish.

    Béchard is leaving for Kenya on Saturday.

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2006/11/08/quebec-climatechange.html
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    she is a joke ... but i guess it shows how inconsequential they consider the portfolio ... i've never heard of a country actually going somewhere to try and halt progress ...

    its sad day for conservatives ... it was brian mulroney who once stood in front of parliament warning us about climate change and the once leading partnership between the US and Canada on leading this fight has come full circle as the two main countries who are opposing it ...
  • Harper has always been Pro-Israel and a U.S. ass kisser. Hopefully he wont last....we said that about Ralph though too
    Ggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
    >>>>
    >
    ...a lover and a fighter.
    "I'm at least half a bum" Rocky Balboa

    http://www.videosift.com/video/Obamas-Message-To-American-Indians

    Edmonton, AB. September 5th, 2005
    Vancouver, BC. April 3rd, 2008
    Calgary,AB. August 8th, 2009
  • polaris wrote:
    she is a joke ... but i guess it shows how inconsequential they consider the portfolio ... i've never heard of a country actually going somewhere to try and halt progress ...

    its sad day for conservatives ... it was brian mulroney who once stood in front of parliament warning us about climate change and the once leading partnership between the US and Canada on leading this fight has come full circle as the two main countries who are opposing it ...

    Conservative management of the environmental situation is such a joke, i don't know who they're speaking to really, but they're so disconnected from reality on this topic (and i could say on many topic) that they lose all credibility, they'll make Canada looks like idiots in Kenya...
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    Conservative management of the environmental situation is such a joke, i don't know who they're speaking to really, but they're so disconnected from reality on this topic (and i could say on many topic) that they lose all credibility, they'll make Canada looks like idiots in Kenya...

    too late ... our actions a few months ago at the conference where we were chair already made us look pathetic ...
  • polaris wrote:
    too late ... our actions a few months ago at the conference where we were chair already made us look pathetic ...

    hmmm yeah you're right, but since they're so bad, it could mean no more Cons. govt. very soon, here's hoping...
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    hmmm yeah you're right, but since they're so bad, it could mean no more Cons. govt. very soon, here's hoping...

    hard to say ... right now, all the leading liberal candidates carry a lot of baggage that is gonna be problematic in an election ... the tories have a solid base that won't change from the 33% that they are at ... its how many seats the NDP get and how quebec votes ...
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    polaris wrote:
    hard to say ... right now, all the leading liberal candidates carry a lot of baggage that is gonna be problematic in an election quote]

    why do they have so much baggage? why is that always the problem with the liberals?

    Chrétien had baggage but he was still a fairly good leader at the end of the day.
  • those damn separatist... oh wait, he's not...


    Quebec miffed at Kyoto snub
    RHÉAL SÉGUIN

    Globe and Mail Update

    QUEBEC — Forty-five seconds is all Quebec demanded to make its case in support of the Kyoto Protocol on climate change at an international meeting in Nairobi.

    But Thursday, the federal government said no, making it clear that in international forums Canada speaks with one voice.

    Quebec's unequivocal support of the accord contradicts the position federal Environment Minister Rona Ambrose intends to defend next week at the Nairobi meeting.

    “It has been agreed that Canada will speak with one voice in Nairobi and we have ... many common objectives and because of that we must speak with one voice,” she told reporters Thursday in Ottawa.

    Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government has tabled a Clean Air Act that critics argue has abandoned the greenhouse gas emission targets to which Canada was committed under the Kyoto accord.

    Quebec has tabled its own plan, which, unlike Ottawa's, embraces the Kyoto targets set for 2012. The province is demanding $328-million from Ottawa to implement its climate-change program.

    Quebec Environment Minister Claude Béchard, who will attend the Nairobi meeting, warned that if Ms. Ambrose neglects to express Quebec's views that the Kyoto targets are not only realistic but achievable, he will take his case outside the conference room and openly challenge the federal government's position in private meetings, forums and public discussions with representatives of other countries.

    Backed by a coalition of environmental groups and Quebec public opinion, Mr. Béchard said if Ottawa wants to speak with one voice it had better be sure that the views of Quebeckers are also expressed.

    “I think they are very nervous. When Ottawa will say that it is not able to meet the Kyoto targets, we will say that that is not exactly the truth because there is one part of Canada where it is possible to achieve those targets,” Mr. Béchard said Thursday.

    Quebec fully understands the embarrassment its position could cause Ottawa at the international forum. Mr. Béchard noted that the absence of unity at the meeting could undermine Mr. Harper's credibility, not only on the environment but also with respect to the model of open federalism that includes a greater voice for Quebec in international forums.

    “It's not a perfect model. Every model can be improved,” Mr. Béchard said. “On the issue of the environment, we would have been better off to draft a common position before going to the meeting. We won't let ourselves be overwhelmed.... We will say that Kyoto is possible, it is achievable and we have a good plan to achieve it.”

    In Ottawa, the Opposition accused Mr. Harper of defending a policy that abandons Canada's role as world leader on the environment. “The Minister of the Environment is not a leader on the environment. She is an anti-leader,” Liberal Opposition Leader Bill Graham said in the Commons.

    The Prime Minister said that for the first time the federal government has a realistic plan and clear targets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

    “The [Liberals] signed Canada onto Kyoto a decade ago, for 13 years did not produce a single plan, and now have the gall to actually suggest that they would go to Nairobi and commit us to even more targets while we are still waiting to see their plan after 13 years,” Mr. Harper said in the Commons.

    The Nairobi meeting began this week and concludes next Friday. Ms. Ambrose is scheduled to formally outline the federal government's position on the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions on Wednesday. Mr. Béchard said Quebec has not been consulted and has yet to be told what Ms. Ambrose will say at the meeting.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061109.kyoto10/BNStory/National/home
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • Thankfully one province is actually going to take on the challenge and not bow to the Conservative cop out....good for Quebec.....everyday I see Harper going down the tubes...I hear he is getting investigated by Democracy Watch.....
  • MrBrian wrote:
    polaris wrote:
    hard to say ... right now, all the leading liberal candidates carry a lot of baggage that is gonna be problematic in an election quote]

    why do they have so much baggage? why is that always the problem with the liberals?

    Chrétien had baggage but he was still a fairly good leader at the end of the day.

    Chretien did one thing to immortalize him in my memory...telling W. to pretty much fuck himself on the war in Iraq...that is why I will always respect this man.....some people can hate him all they want....BUT he avoided a major mistake....and we should all be proud of him for that....
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