There would be NO wars if people refused to fight!

Heineken Helen

Pretty simple, eh? I'm sick of hearing about how the poor goddamn troops are over there against their will. Sure they can face prison for refusing to fight but isn't that better than being 'forced' to kill people? (George Bush ain't in Iraq). I would certainly rather go to prison than do something that goes against everything I believe. And I would safely say that when the war began, a vast majority of the troops were in favour of it. Just cos they change their mind halfway through the war shouldn't make anyone feel sorry for them.

DriftingByTheStorm

now you understand the REAL reason the powers that be eliminated the draft.

Unwilling people not being forced to war equals MINIMAL RESISTANCE.

The reason there aren't hundreds of thousands in the street protesting this "war"?

No draft.
No fear that YOU could be sent to war.
No concern, no action.
No problem for the establishment.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Blackwater...big bucks...huge cash paid out to do dirty deeds.

pimpin out the war...and the future of your grandchildren

...nothing but a bunch of high paid tricks with guns...but the switch is they "do" you not the other way around

Heineken Helen

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

now you understand the REAL reason the powers that be eliminated the draft.

Unwilling people not being forced to war equals MINIMAL RESISTANCE.

The reason there aren't hundreds of thousands in the street protesting this "war"?

No draft.
No fear that YOU could be sent to war.
No concern, no action.
No problem for the establishment.

I don't care why they really eliminated the draft... I just can't believe people could be so stupid with their 'oh our poor boys out fighting for ME' bullshit :mad: It almost makes me wanna punch someone

Like I said Bush ain't in Iraq... one man can't possibly be to blame for all this. One man? How whipped ARE americans these days that one man could just say 'right, all you over to Iraq now... and kill some goddamn arabians' and everyone will just say 'sir, yes sir' and then cry on the phone to their mommy about how the big bad man MADE them drop the bomb on the wedding... or shoot the kid. We're ALL responsible for our individual actions, the nazi's too were following orders. Soldiers are supposed to be MEN (or women) so why can't they BE fucking men. If all the soldiers supposedly against this war dropped their arms, there wouldn't be enough prisons in the world for them.

josevolution

well some people do join the army,navy,marines ,air force ,to make it a life time career so they will allways be people in the armed forces ....not to many people would refuse to take orders when they have so much to loose pention & all ,i do agree with you Helen about some how stopping the bloodshed ...

Get_Right

you will never eliminate war as long as there is religion in the world

Heineken Helen

josevolution wrote:

well some people do join the army,navy,marines ,air force ,to make it a life time career so they will allways be people in the armed forces ....not to many people would refuse to take orders when they have so much to loose pention & all ,i do agree with you Helen about some how stopping the bloodshed ...

oh I know that... but ya don't join the army (especially the american army) and then complain cos you don't like the war they're sending you to that's the risk you take when you join.

I do feel sorry for those who joined up for desk jobs years ago or the national guard briefly... and then got called up to go to Iraq... but other than that, I've ZERO sympathy for the rest of them.

Heineken Helen

Get_Right wrote:

you will never eliminate war as long as there is religion in the world

oh people will always find SOMETHING to fight over... as for the war in northern ireland... religion was part of something much bigger but it's often seen as a religious war. Religion was only one thing taken away from the people, land, language, education, dignity were but a few others. It's not always as clearly cut about religion as it seems from the outside.

DriftingByTheStorm

Heineken Helen wrote:

We're ALL responsible for our individual actions, the nazi's too were following orders. Soldiers are supposed to be MEN (or women) so why can't they BE fucking men.

HH, i agree with most of your post on premise.
However the above quote, imho, hits the nail on the head.

Not to draw too much comparison to Nazi germany here, but human behavior is human behavior, past or present, east or west. The young men in Germany who were "just following orders" also thought they were doing what was best for their country. They had been repeatedly lied to, attacked with propaganda on a daily basis, and were incredibly nationalistic. I don't think it is too much of a reach to draw that same comparison over to the American present day.

Do you know any fellas in the military? I live in a town with a big base, and the bars are crawling with these guys on the weekend. What they are long on in the brawns department, they are a bit short on in brainsville, if you catch my flow.

My cousin-in-law is a great guy, treats my cousin like a queen, and he means well. He also LOVES his job in the Army, he's gung-ho, owns 4 guns and 12 knives, and has ZERO understanding about the reality of what is going on in the Middle East policy or politics wise.

Like you said, they are just following orders.

haven't we established in other threads that the primary function of modern education has very little to do with teaching true "critical thinking" skills or analytic thought? Its all about following orders by route, which is just what you "accused" "our boys" of doing.

What you are doing here is the equivilant of asking the 40,000 lemmings at the back of the pack to look in front of them and make an informed personal decision that jumping off the cliff like the 40,000 in front of them may not be the best idea. Its a reasonable position to have that the lemmings should know better, but i mean ... ?

Heineken Helen

good points.

Yep, my brother is in the Irish army... kinda different since we're neutral but I think a soldier mentality is a soldier mentality. He's very 'right' thinking... despite the fact that he's without a doubt the most intelligent person I know. He literally knows everything there is to know... and yet he would vote for bush were he american, he would go to Iraq were the Irish army sent in there.

Now I love my brother to bits obviously... but I've accepted the fact that this is the job he loves AND that he does it with the best of intentions. IF however, he was sent to a war that he KNEW was bullshit, he's a man of convictions too, he'd sooner go to jail. He would not blindly follow orders he knew were wrong.

Heineken Helen

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

haven't we established in other threads that the primary function of modern education has very little to do with teaching true "critical thinking" skills or analytic thought? Its all about following orders by route, which is just what you "accused" "our boys" of doing.

and sorry, I don't know about those other threads... but yes I would tend to agree with you. Seems we've picked what defines 'intelligence', put them into modules and into our kids heads. This is why I absolutely loved English in school... we were encouraged to debate and come up with 'far out' ideas and an opinion was never wrong but we were taught to expand on it. I think we could do with more of that in schools

Buru

Get_Right wrote:

you will never eliminate war as long as there is religion in the world

people go to war for other reasons too... land issues, political...as well as religious causes.

As long as there is someone somewhere who is willing to pick up a gun and fight someone else's war... (because they have been convinced that this is the right thing to do) I don't see it stopping.

LikeAnOcean

Get_Right wrote:

you will never eliminate war as long as there is religion in the world

I don't think it really has much to do with religion. Religion just is used as the excuse to fight. If it wasn't religion, it would be something else..

Heineken Helen

LikeAnOcean wrote:

I don't think it really has much to do with religion. Religion just is used as the excuse to fight. If it wasn't religion, it would be something else..

Exactly, besides most religions preach peace... so how war can be fought on religious grounds just is beyond me.

Danimal

I wish Santa was real.

polaris

there will always be war as long as their is greed ...

fighting has nothing to do with it ... i can sit here and be passive all day but if my neighbour decides to take advantage of my passiveness - eventually, there is only one recourse ...

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

there would be no war if you people would just except your enslavement, damnit!

know1

Heineken Helen wrote:

Pretty simple, eh? I'm sick of hearing about how the poor goddamn troops are over there against their will. Sure they can face prison for refusing to fight but isn't that better than being 'forced' to kill people? (George Bush ain't in Iraq). I would certainly rather go to prison than do something that goes against everything I believe. And I would safely say that when the war began, a vast majority of the troops were in favour of it. Just cos they change their mind halfway through the war shouldn't make anyone feel sorry for them.

I've always said this. If people weren't willing to fight, you couldn't wage a war.

macgyver06

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

now you understand the REAL reason the powers that be eliminated the draft.

Unwilling people not being forced to war equals MINIMAL RESISTANCE.

The reason there aren't hundreds of thousands in the street protesting this "war"?

No draft.
No fear that YOU could be sent to war.
No concern, no action.
No problem for the establishment.

and by powers that be you mean Senator Maurice ''Mike'' Gravel, from Alaska who is currently running for president.

DriftingByTheStorm

macgyver06 wrote:

and by powers that be you mean Senator Maurice ''Mike'' Gravel, from Alaska who is currently running for president.

By Gravel stopping the draft you mean this, from his wikipedia page?

Mike Gravel Wikipedia wrote:

Finally on September 21, 1971, the Senate invoked cloture over Gravel's second filibuster attempt by one vote, and then passed the two-year draft extension.[41] Gravel's attempts to stop the draft had failed[19] (notwithstanding Gravel's latter claims that he had stopped or shortened the draft, taken at face value in some media reports, during his 2008 presidential campaign[43]).

You mean "the powers that be" negating his fillabuster?



Btw, i didn't know Gravel was still running.

macgyver06

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

By Gravel stopping the draft you mean this, from his wikipedia page?


You mean "the powers that be" negating his fillabuster?



Btw, i didn't know Gravel was still running.

that source is unacceptable and is not wise to use as reference here or anywhere on earth.

stickfig13

Heineken Helen wrote:

I don't care why they really eliminated the draft... I just can't believe people could be so stupid with their 'oh our poor boys out fighting for ME' bullshit :mad: It almost makes me wanna punch someone

Like I said Bush ain't in Iraq... one man can't possibly be to blame for all this. One man? How whipped ARE americans these days that one man could just say 'right, all you over to Iraq now... and kill some goddamn arabians' and everyone will just say 'sir, yes sir' and then cry on the phone to their mommy about how the big bad man MADE them drop the bomb on the wedding... or shoot the kid. We're ALL responsible for our individual actions, the nazi's too were following orders. Soldiers are supposed to be MEN (or women) so why can't they BE fucking men. If all the soldiers supposedly against this war dropped their arms, there wouldn't be enough prisons in the world for them.

Read "Eichmann in Jerusalem, a report on the banality of evil"..... It will answer you questions

cornnifer

Now THERE'S a profound statement. "There would be NO wars if people refused to fight!"

There would also be no dogshit on my lawn if people refused to let their dog shit in my yard.

There would be no litter if people refused to throw garbage on the ground.

There would be no daylight if there were no sun.

cornnifer

cornnifer wrote:

Now THERE'S a profound statement. "There would be NO wars if people refused to fight!"

There would also be no dogshit on my lawn if people refused to let their dog shit in my yard.

There would be no litter if people refused to throw garbage on the ground.

There would be no daylight if there were no sun.

O.k. Maybe i'm being a dick. Sorry. Sincerely.

DriftingByTheStorm

macgyver06 wrote:

that source is unacceptable and is not wise to use as reference here or anywhere on earth.

It actualy has citations.
:rolleyes:

Wikipedia is a perfectly legitimate source for stealing information on the quick. As long as you are willing to fact check the claims, it is a great way to save time digging the net for info.

You dispute the claim that the Senate negated his fillabuster and actualy extended the draft?

What proof do YOU have?

sapperskunk

cornnifer wrote:

O.k. Maybe i'm being a dick. Sorry. Sincerely.

Don't be sorry, you nailed it.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Even Santa slaps around his elves once and a while...

Ever notice Misses Claus never speaks?

inside she is screaming...

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

sapperskunk wrote:

Don't be sorry, you nailed it.

yeah thanks, Cornifer. i was waiting for someone to say it.

Abookamongstthemany

There would be no democrats or republicans if people stopped voting for them. And...when more parties form and they become shitty....stop voting for them, too. How nice it would be to hold officials accountable for a change.

PJ_Saluki

Yup, it's pretty easy and, sorry HH, naive to say there would be no wars if people refused to fight. Ain't neva gonna happen. As long as somebody has something some other group of somebodies wants, there will always be war. To think otherwise seems like a flight of fancy to me. Pacifists might get their reward in heaven, if you believe in it, but they get shit on in the real world.

g under p

As long as we have leaders (George Bush & others) hungry for power we will ALWAYS continue to have these wars. Thus the sad state of this world and ALL it's leaders.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

Peace